CoronaVirus ==> Empty Shelves

[GraemeCook]

Statistics.
.... Now from my understanding, 50% of the globe at Trump lovers, the other 50% are Trump haters....


"...Since the early fifteenth century, for example, trump has served as a synonym for fart, or rather to denote an especially noisy fart. ..."


(A Dictionary of Culinary Curiosities) by Mark Morton

[Bushmiller]

Statistics.
This thread loves figures. Now from my understanding, 50% of the globe at Trump lovers, the other 50% are Trump haters.
Now, the few contributors to this thread all seem to be in the Hate camp, and there are no Lover responses, so I’m wondering why?
Is it:
a. Trump lovers feel so superior that they can’t be bothered to reply to the scribblings of deluded fools.
b. Trump lovers feel so inferior that they are fearful that anything they write will be treated with scorn and nasty responses from the superior intelligentsia.
c. Trump lovers can’t write.
d. Trump lovers can write but they spend so much time working hard on their businesses or making millions on the stock market that they haven’t got time to write.
e. Most forum members are so busy working on timber projects that they haven’t got any time to contribute to this post.
f. All of the above.

Greg

There is a distinct anomaly in the American system where because there is no compulsory voting the successful candidate can win with the approval of only a quarter of the electorate. In fact Trump, you may recall, won despite Clinton attracting more votes, because of the College vote factor (another anomaly to my mind). In 2016 55.7% of the VAP (voting age population) voted ( Voter turnout in the United States presidential elections - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections) ), but that includes quite a large percentage of ineligible voters too, so the actual percentage of eligible voters is smaller. To make the sums easier for my simple mind I have called it 50% and I don't think it would be far off.

From the States a Forum member has confirmed to me that Trump's popularity amongst his supporters has not noticeably waned. It could be that they continue to believe his rhetoric, despite the statistics, possibly because they want to believe. On the other hand, outside of the US his words and recent condemnation of the WHO are mainly seen as disgraceful and a blatant grab to delegate blame and attempt to maintain popularity. This is seen as particularly inappropriate at a time when so much of the world is suffering and the US is demonstrating bully tactics with medical supplies.

I suspect that there are mainly elements of "f" in your summary above. You could have added there is also the sentiment that the Americans are getting what they deserve: However, I would suggest that is a view that lacks compassion as no one except maybe the man at the top deserves to go through this pandemic, if it was avoidable.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

According to my mum the person with the cleanest hands and nails in her family was her blacksmith father. Unfortunately I never met him but according to mum after work he would spend many minutes vigorously scrubbing his hands and nails with soap and water, and finish off by cutting a lemon in half and crushing it skin and all AND vigorously rub it all over his hands. The citric acid and lemon oil combo not only removed every trace of charcoal/rust and metal filings, but left his hands soft. All 8 of my uncles and aunts have remarked on how clean and soft his hands were. I've used the lemon wash a few times when I had spare lemons after handling cast iron and it does indeed work amazingly well at getting out the black stuff then ends up in finger/hand skin cracks.

In a workplace study a few years back metal workers were found to have some of the lowest hand bacterial counts of any profession because theY tended to wasH their hands far more often than anyone else. I wonder if the use of tight fitting gloves has made things worse rather than better. Amongst the worst for bacterial hand counts was anyone who used keyboards, especially if not always their own. Office door handles and cistern buttons of the toilets used by these workers were also higher in bacterial counts.

Your Grandfather was also one tough man as well,
Straight lemon juice into any cuts on your hands is pure hell.
As one ex metal worker to another, I understand the ten minutes it’s takes to scrub your hands and arms clean at the end of the day.
An then the reminder of that cut you got at 10.45 am that you forgot about.

Paint thinners are also excellent cut finders!!

Cheers Matt,




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[NeilS]

Now from my understanding, 50% of the globe are Trump lovers, the other 50% are Trump haters.



As Justonething points out those ratings only apply to the US. To be more precise, since the first 30 days of his presidency, he recently reached an all polls approval high of 45.8% when he started his daily press conferences on the virus. It has started to drop again as the press conferences have degenerated into the Donald show. He has the lowest ratings of ten presidents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating) over the last ninety years. But, that could just be fake news.

Here are his ratings over his presidency, so far.

How Popular Is Donald Trump? | FiveThirtyEight (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/)

As for his international ratings...

How the world sees the U.S. and Trump in 10 charts | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/01/08/how-people-around-the-world-see-the-u-s-and-donald-trump-in-10-charts/)

For me he is a symptom and not the cause of a deep malaise in the US. Donald is a worry, but even more troubling for me is that over 45% of its population still approves of his performance this far into his presidency.

In keeping with the forum rules, I attempt to avoid making comments of a political nature on local politics here in Australia. Having a bit of a grizzle is another matter.

However, I would think that offshore politics is different and that making fun of Donald is fair game. The US citizens may feel the need to respect their president, we don't. Although we don't get to vote on their president, their choices do have an impact on us, so we should at least have the right to express our derision if we see fit to do so. I don't see this as being any more political than ridiculing such leaders as "His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire (CBE) in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular", and last King of Scotland!
But, as always, I respect the decisions of the moderators.

[woodPixel]

Statistics.
e. Most forum members are so busy working on timber projects that they haven’t got any time to contribute to this post.


g. Finding new clients to replace the ones that have begun hibernating.


Yes! I picked up a new actual-real-paying-client on Wednesday. I can eat again! Huzzah!

.... at least for this and next week :(

:2tsup:

[Kuffy]

Statistics.
This thread loves figures. Now from my understanding, 50% of the globe at Trump lovers, the other 50% are Trump haters.
Now, the few contributors to this thread all seem to be in the Hate camp, and there are no Lover responses, so I’m wondering why?


I'm not in the hate camp. If I was a yank, i'd vote for Trump. He seems to have been doing a pretty good job before corona. Pretty good doesn't mean great, nor bad, he's just a politician but at least he doesn't cower to the left leaning muppets of the press. So he gets a thumbs up from me on that point alone. I'm no fool, he has royally screwed up with corona and now is playing a blame game with WHO and China. If he gets re-elected, I fear he will take that as a mandate to continue to shoot his mouth off at China which will possibly end up being a prelude to war. War between China and USA.....god help us all!

[GraemeCook]

.... he's just a politician but at least he doesn't cower to the left leaning muppets of the press. ...

WOW; you are the first person I have heard describe Rupert and his scribes as "left leaning muppets".

[NeilS]

g. Finding new clients to replace the ones that have begun hibernating.


Yes! I picked up a new actual-real-paying-client on Wednesday. I can eat again! Huzzah!

.... at least for this and next week :(

:2tsup:

Good onya!

[Simplicity]

Be like LEGO people,people

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200417/f7efe7b546996f3b20f4f11ffaa3b44b.jpg

Cheers Matt.

[Kuffy]

WOW; you are the first person I have heard describe Rupert and his scribes as "left leaning muppets".

I realise that Rupert controls much of the Australian news media, but I was thinking more along the lines of American news such as NBC, CNN or ABC.

[NeilS]

Looking again this morning at the modelling for the USA that I have been regularly following, they are still tracking close to the projection of about 70k deaths by 4 August, provided they retain full social distancing to the end of May.

The projection for today (17 April) was about 32K total deaths and Woldometer is reporting about 34.5k. The number bounce around a bit, but at this rate they may do better than Spain and Italy per capita, but the projections for those (see pull down country options) are nearing their peak whereas the USA has a long way to go yet and there is still a lot of upside uncertainty built into the US projections.

Remove the social distancing that is built into the modelling for each of the countries/locations before the end of May and that will produce very different projected outcomes.

See third chart here (https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america).

There is a lot of very rich data in the modelling, like the projected peak and ICU bed shortages at peak demand. No wonder Spain, Italy, the UK and New York have struggled as can be clearly seen by pulling down the charts for each of those places.

Note: Many countries, large and small, are included in the modelling, but not Australia. Why am I'm not surprised!

[GraemeCook]

I realise that Rupert controls much of the Australian news media, but I was thinking more along the lines of American news such as NBC, CNN or ABC.

???

Wall Street Journal
Dow Jones
Fox News
Fox Business

The (London) Times
Sunday Times
Financial Times
The Sun

[Kuffy]

Are you listing centre right publications in an attempt to sway my view that Trump doesn't cower to "left" leaning muppets of the press? You quoted what I said, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually read what I said.

[ian]

according to this source Why B.C.'''s top doctor still believes mass testing isn'''t the way to stop COVID-19 | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bonnie-henry-third-covid-test-results-false-negative-1.5531288) the Covid-19 "test" can deliver a false negative result 30% of the time. Just to clarify 30% of patients testing negative to the virus are actually positive to the virus. At that rate of false negatives I think it's more than appropriate that I describe the Covid-19 test as "test".

What is scary, at least for me, is that according to a radio interview with a Canadian virologist on CBC this afternoon (Thursday April 16) the rate of false negatives INCREASES from 10% to 30% as the duration of the infection increases.

[homey]

As for farts and Covid-19 transmission, according to Norman Swan on the radio this morning, no bare arsed ones within physical distancing guidelines. Done wearing the usual masking apparel on the rear end, no problem!

Good to see, then, that my old mum in the UK is taking the appropriate precautions:

471892

[Tccp123]

Remember when we were crowing about ticking over post #1,000?

[Greg Ward]

Remember when we were predicting 100,000 deaths in Australia

[Tccp123]

Remember when we were predicting 100,000 deaths in Australia

Hahaha! I'm glad you said that because I never could have, I would have been shouted down...

[FenceFurniture]

Coronavirus live news: Wuhan death toll revised up 50% as China's economy suffers worst fall on record | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/17/coronavirus-live-news-trump-says-29-states-could-reopen-relatively-soon-as-global-deaths-near-145000?page=with:block-5e995dc38f08cf571cdb2b61#block-5e995dc38f08cf571cdb2b61)

[FenceFurniture]

Remember when we were predicting 100,000 deaths in AustraliaActually I don't, but there were all sorts of numbers swirling around before any (or many) preventative steps were taken. When was that?

[Tccp123]

Actually I don't, but there were all sorts of numbers swirling around before any (or many) preventative steps were taken. When was that?

I think you've missed the point again mate... :)

[Slave]

As a retired burgler I can assure you that plenty of men don’t wash their hands after going to the toilet, number 2’s included

[Tccp123]

Is it true that in SA they've introduced new random breath testing? But for Covid19, not booze? Is it also true that all the new booze busses include an ICU?

[Tccp123]

I'm curious...how does a burglar know that? (not that I'm doubting what you say...)

[Slave]

As a retired burgler I can assure you that plenty of men don’t wash their hands after going to the toilet, number 2’s included
That should be burgler

[Tccp123]

That should be burgler

American dictionary spell checker...

[NeilS]

Remember when we were predicting 100,000 deaths in Australia

Nobody on this thread was predicting that without giving the qualification.... "unless significant steps are taken."

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/coronavirus-empty-shelves-233039/5#post2177629

But, thankfully Australia did take the necessary steps to avoid that worst case scenario against a push back from some quarters (well much less than that) of the media.

[Tccp123]

Nobody on this thread was predicting that without giving the qualification.... "unless significant steps are taken."

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/coronavirus-empty-shelves-233039/5#post2177629

But, thankfully Australia did take the necessary steps to avoid that worst case scenario against a push back from some quarters (well much less than that) of the media.

There are a whole lot of factors that allowed us to escape this. We've been lucky. Don't give all the credit to "significant steps"

[Bohdan]

But, thankfully Australia did take the necessary steps to avoid that worst case scenario against a push back from some quarters (well much less than that) of the media.

As well as from some on this forum.

[FenceFurniture]

Prof Paul Kelly (Dep CMO) is not ruling out making downloading their tracking app compulsory. "I think we'll start with it being voluntary and see how it goes." he said in response to a journalist asking him if it could become compulsory. PPK is no doubt only acting from a public health point of view, and may not be seeing the potentially sinister side of the idea.

My partner has lived through the various Police State/Military Juntas of Argentina in the 70s and 80s, and understandably she is not at all happy about it.

Some questions that I can think of:


What guarantee do we have that the data will not be used for anything else? Certainly mobile phone movements can currently be traced, but that requires a warrant or court order AFAIK.
What guarantee do we have that this is not the thin end of the surveillance wedge, and that the surveilling will not continue after the pandemic crisis is finished because Mr Potato Head can now track us all?
What guarantee do we have that this golden opportunity to turn it into an Australia Card on steroids will not be taken?
Do they really need that data, given that Australia is more or less leading the western world in controlling the virus?


I will wait to see what answers we can get to those or similar questions before I decide one way or another, but atm I am very sceptical of trusting a Govt of any flavour with that sort of data.

How do you all feel about the Govt knowing where you are at any given time?

[Bushmiller]

What is scary, at least for me, is that according to a radio interview with a Canadian virologist on CBC this afternoon (Thursday April 16) the rate of false negatives INCREASES from 10% to 30% as the duration of the infection increases.

Ian

That makes me wonder if it is a result of mutation. Around the world the virus is not exactly the same because of at least three mutations, but I don't know the details ( or exact numbers of mutations ) and I don't know how the tests are conducted and the criteria that is examined.

Regards
Paul

[Tccp123]

Prof Paul Kelly (Dep CMO) is not ruling out making downloading their tracking app compulsory. "I think we'll start with it being voluntary and see how it goes." he said in response to a journalist asking him if it could become compulsory. PPK is no doubt only acting from a public health point of view, and may not be seeing the potentially sinister side of the idea.

My partner has lived through the various Police State/Military Juntas of Argentina in the 70s and 80s, and understandably she is not at all happy about it.

Some questions that I can think of:


What guarantee do we have that the data will not be used for anything else? Certainly mobile phone movements can currently be traced, but that requires a warrant or court order AFAIK.
What guarantee do we have that this is not the thin end of the surveillance wedge, and that the surveilling will not continue after the pandemic crisis is finished because Mr Potato Head can now track us all?
What guarantee do we have that this golden opportunity to turn it into an Australia Card on steroids will not be taken?
Do they really need that data, given that Australia is more or less leading the western world in controlling the virus?


I will wait to see what answers we can get to those or similar questions before I decide one way or another, but atm I am very sceptical of trusting a Govt of any flavour with that sort of data.

How do you all feel about the Govt knowing where you are at any given time?

At last, a glint of gold in the bottom of the pan... from FenceFurniture! Who would have guessed? Keep it up mate!

[NeilS]

How do you all feel about the Govt knowing where you are at any given time?



Under normal circumstances, no way!

Data security, proscribed uses and a legislated sunset clause would be prerequisites before I would be prepared to consider giving my location in return for a well justified benefit for myself and others.

The right to exit and for all data to be deleted would also be a consideration.

And, the responsible minister would be another factor in my decision making.

[Tccp123]

Under normal circumstances, no way!

Data security, proscribed uses and a legislated sunset clause would be prerequisites before I would be prepared to consider giving my location in return for a well justified benefit for myself and others.

The right to exit and for all data to be deleted would also be a consideration.

And, the responsible minister would be another factor in my decision making.

But if you're not doing anything criminal why would you be concerned...?

[Tccp123]

But if you're not doing anything criminal why would you be concerned...?

...playing the devil's advocate obviously (just in case it wasn't obvious) :)

[NeilS]

But if you're not doing anything criminal why would you be concerned...?

So far not a concern in over seventy years, but then who knows what changes in the law might turn me into one...:cool:

[Tccp123]

So far not a concern in over seventy years, but then who knows what changes in the law might turn me into one.

Good answer

[woodPixel]

...playing the devil's advocate obviously (just in case it wasn't obvious) :)

"Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime" - Lavrentiy Beria

Must be careful here. I remember Howard well. At the end, well.... there you go.

[doug3030]

On the other 'hand', holding the siphon python is another matter. That depends on where it and your hand has been!

Well it's your d!ck and its your soap and you can wash it as fast as you like.

[Kuffy]

How do you all feel about the Govt knowing where you are at any given time?

On the surface, it seems like a good idea. I personally don't care if the government know where I am though I am technically against it without having any great reason except for 'there is always some greedy bugger with access to power and he is dumb enough to use it for his own personal gain, often at the cost of the great many".

from Virus mobile tracking app may be mandatory | The Canberra Times | Canberra, ACT (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6726189/virus-mobile-tracking-app-may-be-mandatory/?cs=14231)


It uses Bluetooth to plot people who had spent 15 minutes or more in close proximity to a person with coronavirus.

Today, I have been at work, been to Maccas, KFC (in the shopping center) and the fush n chup shop (at a different shopping center). The app will have registered me working alongside the workmates, but not maccas, kfc or fush n chups because I was in and out quick as a flash each time. I would remember if I was at work for any standard business day, but I wouldn't need to remember because the business will be shut down for 14 days as soon as I get confirmed infected anyway.

so for the most part, the tracking app gains the government SFA with me, because I would be able to tell them I was at work.

however, also from the same above linked article.


Better contact tracing is one of three main benchmarks the government wants to meet before strict restrictions can be lifted.

If I wanted to hang out with mates for an extended period during the day (we can't at the moment), the government will want better tracking/tracing capacity. Which effectively means we have a choice. Go outside and be tracked, or stay in lock down until a vaccine is produced or suitable treatment is discovered. The government wants the economy back up and running, as I'm sure we all do, so do we really have a choice at all? I think not. But it is nice that they pretended to ask.

[doug3030]

If I wanted to hang out with mates for an extended period during the day (we can't at the moment), the government will want better tracking/tracing capacity. Which effectively means we have a choice. Go outside and be tracked, or stay in lock down until a vaccine is produced or suitable treatment is discovered. The government wants the economy back up and running, as I'm sure we all do, so do we really have a choice at all? I think not. But it is nice that they pretended to ask.

The tracking app is in your mobile phone. If you want to meet up with mates then leave your phone at home. Unless they want to make mobile phone ownership and carriage compulsory its all a bit meaningless because people will easily beat the system.

[Kuffy]

The tracking app is in your mobile phone. If you want to meet up with mates then leave your phone at home. Unless they want to make mobile phone ownership and carriage compulsory its all a bit meaningless because people will easily beat the system.

I just realised the government is smarter than we give them credit for. It's an obvious thing to leave the phone at home. Unbelievably obvious! Even the people that go to the beach when they are not supposed to could figure that one out. So all they have to do is willingly go without Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok etc etc for a few hours. Lol, the government is sneaky clever :D

[Tccp123]

Rudd vs. Trump

Three words come to mind... pot, kettle, black

[Bushmiller]

The tracking app is in your mobile phone. If you want to meet up with mates then leave your phone at home. Unless they want to make mobile phone ownership and carriage compulsory its all a bit meaningless because people will easily beat the system.

I have checked my carrier pigeon and it does not appear to have blue tooth capability. Actually I couldn't find a tooth of any colour.

As you have pointed out, if you are truly troubled by the governments ability to know your every move, leave your phone at home: Easy to do unless you subscribe to the clique that would rather have a body part removed than relinquish their mobile phone .

Shouldn't be a problem for SWMBO as half the time, primarily when it is important, she doesn't have her phone with her and the other half of the time the battery is flat. All in all the most immobile and ineffective communication device I know of. :(

Regards
Paul

[doug3030]

Rudd vs. Trump

Three words come to mind... pot, kettle, black

I wonder how many Democrats actually voted for Trump after the best candidate their own party could offer up was Hillary.

[FenceFurniture]

Under normal circumstances, no way!

proscribed uses and a legislated sunset clause would be prerequisites before I would be prepared to consider giving my location in return for a well justified benefit for myself and others.

The right to exit and for all data to be deleted would also be a consideration.If it's compulsory there'll be no right to exit.

At face value, it's a good idea, but I just can't trust a Govt not to abuse the situation at a later stage. It has absolutely nothing to do with criminal activity - that's a very tired old argument, sometimes used for cheap shots. It is everything to do with the Govt knowing more about me/us than they need to or should. It is also the thin edge of the wedge for a potential shocking abuse of power.


And, the responsible minister would be another factor in my decision making.What we have to remember about the Minister for Home Affairs is that he is nowhere near as intelligent as he looks. Ask Turnbull. (thanks to Glider for the description, btw). What's to stop them making it the Health Minister's responsibility for the moment, and then transferring it to the Minister for Home Affairs? I mean, really, he thought he was electable as a Prime Minister, such was his grip on reality, and view of himself. That was another bullet we dodged.


Data security, Neil, that really does deserve a Tccp123 response. HAR HAR HAR!


Sure we can leave our phones at home or off, but that starts to become far less convenient pretty quickly.


Now if it was the New Zealand Govt proposing such an idea.....I think I'd maybe view it differently.

[ian]

Under normal circumstances, no way!

Data security, proscribed uses and a legislated sunset clause would be prerequisites before I would be prepared to consider giving my location in return for a well justified benefit for myself and others.

The right to exit and for all data to be deleted would also be a consideration.

And, the responsible minister would be another factor in my decision making.


But if you're not doing anything criminal why would you be concerned...?
leaving your home for other than what is, by the POLICE, deemed to be "necessary" reason has already been defined as a presumed CRIMINAL act.
According to what my son sees on social media, and what the ABC News reports, Waverley with lots of Covid-19 cases has lower rates of Covid-19 enforcement than St Marys where the number of Covid-19 cases is low (to non-existant?) has much higher levels of enforcement.



So far not a concern in over seventy years, but then who knows what changes in the law might turn me into one...:cool:
see above

[ian]

Some questions that I can think of:


What guarantee do we have that this golden opportunity to turn it into an Australia Card on steroids will not be taken?


You know of course that your Tax File Number is already an "Australia Card" on steroids?
Open a bank account -- quote your TFN or pay a penalty in the form of with holding tax
take out a credit card -- quote your TFN
buy shares in a company -- quote your TFN
apply for a passport -- 3 pieces of ID
buy a mobile phone -- 3 pieces of ID

etc




about the only transaction that doesn't require 3 pieces of personal ID is to become a company director. Go figure.




BTW
all those point to point speed cameras are also tracking and speed checking all vehicles -- it's just that fines are not (yet?) being issued to vehicles other than trucks.

[doug3030]

Neil, that really does deserve a Tccp123 response. HAR HAR HAR!

So what happened to "Play the issue and not the man"?

[doug3030]

IN CASE ANYONE IS CONFUSED

The Rules:

1. Basically, you can't leave the house for any reason, but if you have to, then you can.

2. Masks are useless, but maybe you have to wear one, it can save you, it is useless, but maybe it is mandatory as well.

3. Stores are closed, except those that are open.

4. You should not go to hospital unless you have to go there. Same applies to the doctors, you should only go there in case of emergency, provided you are not too sick.

5. This virus is deadly but still not too scary, except that sometimes it actually leads to a global disaster.

6. Gloves won't help, but they can still help.

7. There is no shortage of groceries in the supermarket, but there are many things missing when you go there in the evening, but not in the morning. Sometimes.

8, The virus has no effect on children except those it affects.

9, Animals are not affected, but there is still a cat that tested positive in Belgium in February when no one had been tested, plus a few tigers here and there…

10. You will have many symptoms when you are sick, but you can also get sick without symptoms, have symptoms without being sick, or be contagious without having symptoms. Oh, good grief!

11. You can get restaurant food delivered to the house, which may have been prepared by people who didn't wear masks or gloves. But you have to have your groceries decontaminated outside for 3 hours. Pizza too?

12. The virus remains active on different surfaces for two hours, no four - or maybe that was days...

13. The virus stays in the air - well no, or yes, maybe, especially in a closed room, in one hour a sick person can infect ten, so if it falls, all our children were already infected at school before it was closed. But remember, if you stay at the recommended social distance, however in certain circumstances you should maintain a greater distance, which, studies show, the virus can travel further, maybe.

14. We count the number of deaths but we don't know how many people are infected as we have only tested so far those who were "almost dead" to find out if that's what they will die of…...

So there you have it, the rules to the lockdown, in a nutshell.
Hope it helps!!

[Beardy]

Yeah I have got to say I am struggling with this whole rules caper.

We are told told to stay at home and get fined for sitting in the park and yet non essential service shops are legally open for business :doh:.
I can legally go to the shops and buy a TV, lounge or some pillowcases but I can’t stand on my own on the beach or go for a non stop drive in my car.

[FenceFurniture]

You know of course that your Tax File Number is already an "Australia Card" on steroids?
Open a bank account -- quote your TFN or pay a penalty in the form of with holding tax
take out a credit card -- quote your TFN
buy shares in a company -- quote your TFN
apply for a passport -- 3 pieces of ID
buy a mobile phone -- 3 pieces of IDYes of course, but I'd hardly categorise that as on steroids...those activities are a far cry from a situation where we can be traced to the nearest 10 metres (or whatever it is), and with whom we are interacting.

I don't recall ever having to provide ID to buy a phone. Perhaps you mean for a SIM card (but I still haven't provided ID for that as I recall). My last phone was purchased from China, and they don't give a toss.

If the app was able to be deleted after the pandemic was finished that would be different and I'd be ok with helping, but I wonder if it will be like the ATO being made as a payee in bank accounts - can't be deleted.

As I understand it, the app uses Bluetooth. What is to stop BT being turned off, due to low battery power, if you catch my drift?

[Bushmiller]

Good one Doug. :D

Actually what that summary does do is highlight that this is largely uncharted territory as far as this particular virus is concerned and confirms that the decision makers in the government are closely related to chooks (spp. "headless").

Interestingly, I have just spent nearly three days in two different hospitals. There were both at about half capacity. The primary reason for this is the cancellation of elective surgery, but the ER wards were also devoid of customers. Those people that flock to the ER for questionable reasons were no longer there either: Just the genuine emergencies.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

BTW, all those point to point speed cameras are also tracking and speed checking all vehicles -- it's just that fines are not (yet?) being issued to vehicles other than trucks.They have been used for cars in Vic for years. There has been one a little west of here at Hartley for at least 3 years to the best of my memory, and I've driven through others in NSW. (I'm talking about for cars)

[BobL]

I'm not concerned if most people don't download the app, or defeat a phone tracking system by switching phones off or leaving phones at home but in practice it won't matter much. The Depts of Health people know a certain proportion of the population will do this but only need mobile phones to be active on about 40% of the population (actually it's less than this, eg Singapore with 20%, that but they won't be trumpeting this) to be of some value.

I'm still in two minds about the whole thing, less so about because of the privacy aspects and more so regarding authorities being too reliant on the app, eg cutting down on the number of trackers, and on the proportion of people loading the app to make lockdown changes to. ie not enough phones have taken this up so we're going to extend the lockdowns.

In the meantime I finally know someone who has had COVID19, a distant relative in his late 80's who lives in a retirement home in Milan. He only had a mild case and has recovered. Most of the residents in the retirement home came down with it and several died and he counts himself lucky.

[BobL]

If anyone feels capable of contribution to tech/management/design/Fab of COV19 related equipment/logsistics/solutions/quick fixes etc you might want to check this our

Mobilise Aus COV19 Onboarding (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSerqRy2Cv9ewk5TdpY-VKdnG-2fhH6pG7mg2K1yw2d4_Lnl1Q/viewform)



Got my first request for info from a member of this group this morning. Team of blokes making/adapting compressors and ventilators for use in sub-Saharan Africa needing advice about air filtration.

[Glider]

I also think the tracking app is a great idea. The part that puzzles me is that, in the light of bleeding obvious, why hasn't the government provided an iron clad guarantee that the app would be taken down when the current crisis ends. All I've heard and read is that the data will remain anonymous unless an infectious contact is indicated. At that point, the mac numbers are matched and the origin identified and contacted.

We now have a super department which controls the AFP and three of the four national security (read "spy") agencies which is quite a departure from the original guidelines established by Justice Robert Hope after the 1974 Royal Commission into the security services.

How many freedoms are we prepared to give up to organisations claiming to preserve our freedom? One of which, raided a journalist's home on the basis of an illegal warrant. Another allowed the Ruby Princess to unload its full complement of passengers.

mick

[FenceFurniture]

why hasn't the government provided an iron clad guarantee that the app would be taken down when the current crisis ends.Perhaps because Dutton doesn't want it taken down?



One of which, raided a journalist's home on the basis of an illegal warrant.AND they were allowed to keep the documents they seized illegally - how the bloody hell does THAT work? It's akin to "You have been found guilty of stealing the jewels, but you can keep them".

[doug3030]

Yes of course, but I'd hardly categorise that as on steroids...those activities are a far cry from a situation where we can be traced to the nearest 10 metres (or whatever it is)...

That information is already recorded for every mobile phone in the world. It's use is limited by the sheer volume of data that is available and a reluctance to admit that it is all there and useable. The relevant authorities can and do gain access to it if the matter is serious enough. I imagine that the app would be an aid to "sorting" the data to make it quicker to isolate the relevant bits for this purpose.

[woodPixel]

For those who consider their freedoms, remember that the government enacted extraordinary temporary powers to deal with terrorism...

19 years ago.....

[Bushmiller]

I heard on the radio (Radio National) a few moments ago that Scomo has announced there are no plans to make the tracking app compulsory. Of course, that may be different to saying that it will not be made compulsory. :rolleyes: I suspect the ability to enforce it is impractical in any event.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

Perhaps because Dutton doesn't want it taken down?


... or Pezzullo.

The power behind the throne also needs to be considered when voluntarily handing over our data.
Hmm... that may have just triggered a call up flag on my ASIO file...:doh:

[FenceFurniture]

... or Pezzullo.

The power behind the throne also needs to be considered when voluntarily handing over our data.Yes indeed.



Scomo has announced there are no plans to make the tracking app compulsory. Of course, that may be different to saying that it will not be made compulsory. :rolleyes: It's just the usual classic hole to be used later if they do decide to make it compulsory.





Anyway, thanks for all the responses to that little sub-topic (not that I've seen all of them - not even tag-teaming will work these days)

[Glider]

For those who consider their freedoms, remember that the government enacted extraordinary temporary powers to deal with terrorism...

19 years ago.....

Truth to tell, I'm not unhappy with their success rate catching extremists since then.

I don't think they've latched onto my master plan to force the government to ban all power tools sold with different sized dust outlets, legislate to have all measuring devices produced in Hi-Viz colours and declaring all woodworking tools tax deductible for amateurs.

mick :)

p.s. I may be coming down with shed fever...

[FenceFurniture]

Updated at about 1:10 this arvo
Coronavirus app will not be forced upon Australians, Scott Morrison says - Politics - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-18/prime-minister-rules-out-making-coronavirus-app-mandatory/12161126)

Morrison: "The app we are working on to help our health workers trace people who have been in contact with coronavirus will not be mandatory," he said.



Pretty obvious they were watching this thread.

[Simplicity]

I heard on the radio (Radio National) a few moments ago that Scomo has announced there are no plans to make the tracking app compulsory. Of course, that may be different to saying that it will not be made compulsory. :rolleyes: I suspect the ability to enforce it is impractical in any event.

Regards
Paul

If Scothead(I just made that up ,clever?)
Made the app compulsory, they would then need to make carrying your mobile phone compulsory, that’s going to take a S.... load of policing I would think.



Cheers Matt
Possibly I just reinforced your comments Paul [emoji6]

[woodPixel]

Hmm... that may have just triggered a call up flag on my ASIO file...:doh:

I just checked on my MyGov and I don't appear to have one of those yet....

ATO, yep, Medicare, yep, Centrelink, yep... definitely no "ASIO".

Maybe they forgot to link it up?

:?

[BobL]

Truth to tell, I'm not unhappy with their success rate catching extremists since then.

Tell you what I'm not happy about - the near fanatical attention and amounts of money spent on "homeland" security when they should have been directing some of that fanaticism and funds towards basic biosecurity. All this focus on stop the boats and they missing a whole plague ridden pleasure cruiser.

I reckon we were just lucky we are where we are. A bit more spent on things like medical research, preplanning, and increased purchasing/warehousing of PPE etc will hopefully be a useful outcome of all this.

[FenceFurniture]

I just checked on my MyGov and I don't appear to have one of those yet....

ATO, yep, Medicare, yep, Centrelink, yep... definitely no "ASIO".

Maybe they forgot to link it up?

:?I would be EXTREMELY surprised if you, as the Forum Conspiracist, did not have an inches thick file. They are just down the road from you.....

:D

[FenceFurniture]

Tell you what I'm not happy about - the near fanatical attention and amounts of money spent on "homeland" securityJust think of all the seed Potatoes that Dutton could have bought.

[woodhutt]

I realise that Rupert controls much of the Australian news media, but I was thinking more along the lines of American news such as NBC, CNN or ABC.

All of who are necessary to counteract the Trump mouthpiece - Fox News.
Pete

[woodPixel]

I would be EXTREMELY surprised if you, as the Forum Conspiracist, did not have an inches thick file. They are just down the road from you.....

:D

Funny you should mention that. I literally am. The ASD has their "secret" facility there. Boy, that brings back some memories. So many dodged bullets. :B

Google maps says I can even catch a bus! Nice :)

471950

[FenceFurniture]

Funny you should mention that. I literally am.Neither funny nor curious...they told me.

[woodPixel]

Neither funny nor curious...they told me.

The They. :)

471952

[Kuffy]

All of who are necessary to counteract the Trump mouthpiece - Fox News.
Pete

why are they counteracting the Trump mouthpiece? Why not just report the news? Sounds like a bunch of muppets. Perhaps some incorrect assumptions have been made by others, my saying that Trump doesn't cave in to the muppets of the left media doesn't mean the right media isn't full of muppets. Of course it bloody is! It's all a bunch of click bait crap. People burn in bushfires, the press smiles. Pandemic spreads, the press smiles.

[NeilS]

Tell you what I'm not happy about - the near fanatical attention and amounts of money spent on "homeland" security when they should have been directing some of that fanaticism and funds towards basic biosecurity. All this focus on stopping the boats and they missing a whole plague ridden pleasure cruiser.



Not original: Their budget is in inverse proportion to the target boat size. Large budget:Small boat size (preferably under 30m*). They would need to reverse their binoculars to be able to see a cruise ship.

* Calculation based on the average number of arrivals on each boat (approx 47) between 1976 and 2014. Source (https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1617/Quick_Guides/BoatTurnbacks).

[FenceFurniture]

Kuffy, you might do well to read the New York Times for some of the most accurate and informed news on American affairs. Probably one of the most prestigious newspapers in the world. They publish opinion pieces from both sides of the camp.

[Kuffy]

I don't favour any particular publication or broadcast. I read and listen to many from both sides. I guess it is kind of like being a judge in the courtroom. I couldn't just listen to the prosecution and make a decision based on that information alone. I have to listen to the defendant also, and then make my own decision as to which sounds more plausible. I reckon it is about as good as we can do. I get only bad from CNN regarding Trump, and only good from Fox regarding trump. The bad plus the good = the whole story I hope.

[FenceFurniture]

The bad plus the good = the whole story I hope.Not if the good (or the bad) is false and propagandist, to serve the best interests of the media owner. The function of the Fourth Estate is to report facts. Further analysis and opinion pieces should be based on the facts too.

[doug3030]

Funny you should mention that. I literally am. The ASD has their "secret" facility there.

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.

Interesting times. :rolleyes:

[NeilS]

Why not just report the news?


I don't favour any particular publication or broadcast. I read and listen to many from both sides.

...

The bad plus the good = the whole story I hope.


Not if the good (or the bad) is false and propagandist, to serve the best interests of the media owner. The function of the Fourth Estate is to report facts. Further analysis and opinion pieces should be based on the facts too.

I find fact checking invaluable .... FactCheck.org - A Project of The Annenberg Public Policy Center (https://www.factcheck.org/) ... and, there are many other fact checking outfits listed here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fact-checking_websites). Some very obvious county omissions from that list.

Just calling something fake news of course doesn't make it so and that can also be fact checked.

The last thing we need is for the media to just retweet whatever comes out of an administration or executive. That would definitely make them muppets (puppets) that fail to fulfill one of the main roles of the media in a democracy; holding those in government to account.

Last night I watched a movie on the Stasi in East Germany at its zenith. The job of the media was to report the news and the Stasi told them what was and wasn't news. Control of the media is the first item in the playbook of authoritarian governments on both the far right and the left, and every other form of dictatorship in between.

Press freedom and diversity within the press is essential for a healthy democracy.

[GraemeCook]

Prof Paul Kelly (Dep CMO) is not ruling out making downloading their tracking app compulsory. ....

I don't have a mobile. Will he buy me one?


My partner has lived through the various Police State/Military Juntas of Argentina in the 70s and 80s, and understandably she is not at all happy about it.

Have a Chilean friend who says the Allende government used ID cards to track families.


Some questions that I can think of:


What guarantee do we have that the data will not be used for anything else? Certainly mobile phone movements can currently be traced, but that requires a warrant or court order AFAIK.
What guarantee do we have that this is not the thin end of the surveillance wedge, and that the surveilling will not continue after the pandemic crisis is finished because Mr Potato Head can now track us all?
What guarantee do we have that this golden opportunity to turn it into an Australia Card on steroids will not be taken?
Do they really need that data, given that Australia is more or less leading the western world in controlling the virus? .....


Aren't Google, Amazon, Chairman Xi and an entire industry already doing that?

[GraemeCook]

......
AND they were allowed to keep the documents they seized illegally - how the bloody hell does THAT work? It's akin to "You have been found guilty of stealing the jewels, but you can keep them".

That is a surprisingly common occurence with white collar crime. How often has someone convicted of market offences (eg insider trading) been forced to hand over the loot.

[GraemeCook]

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.
.....

So you worked in a call centre?

[justonething]

If the app was able to be deleted after the pandemic was finished that would be different and I'd be ok with helping, but I wonder if it will be like the ATO being made as a payee in bank accounts - can't be deleted.

That's what the govt said through Stuart Roberts (If he knows what he's saying). Data is stored locally until you say you're infected, in which case the history of the last 21 days is uploaded to a server, and is used to warn others. It's also open source. It looks OK at the moment.

[FenceFurniture]

Stuart Roberts (If he knows what he's saying).I think there might be a contradiction there. He is amongst the dopiest ever.

[doug3030]

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.So you worked in a call centre?

No, I spent my 20 year and two day Army Career working as an Intelligence Analyst, among other things.

[Bushmiller]

I don't have a mobile. Will he buy me one?





Graeme

I'm in the same boat. Ohhhh...errr. I could probably have phrased that better.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Last night I watched a movie on the Stasi in East Germany at its zenith. The job of the media was to report the news and the Stasi told them what was and wasn't news. Control of the media is the first item in the playbook of authoritarian governments on both the far right and the left, and every other form of dictatorship in between.



Neil

You may recall the control of the media in Orwell's 1984. It absolutely dictated what the news was to the point it also re-wrote history on a daily basis to suit the thinking of the day. Extreme? Yes.

Clearly there are places around the world where this already happens or has happened. I worked with a young Chinese man who had been at university during the Tiananmen Square "incident." He was told nobody was injured or killed there.

The question remains as to what level of police state we are comfortable with and I completely accept we are already there in many respects. Satellites, credit cards, banking, Internet, Social messaging, drivers licence, traffic cameras, CCTV. Maybe even the Woodwork Forums?

:)

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

Neil

You may recall the control of the media in Orwell's 1984. It absolutely dictated what the news was to the point it also re-wrote history on a daily basis to suit the thinking of the day. Extreme? Yes.



Yes, Paul, and also Animal Farm. The dictum "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." is one of the most chilling quotes that comes to mind from that one.

Not that I think that we are under any immediate threat of totalitarianism here, or in any other country with a long history of democracy, but we need to be constantly vigilant for any early signs of its resurgence. If we need a reminder, it is only just under 90 years since the Reichstag fire.

[FenceFurniture]

Not that I think that we are under any immediate threat of totalitarianism here, or in any other country with a long history of democracy, but we need to be constantly vigilant for any early signs of its resurgence.We do indeed have to be vigilant. One only has to listen to Trump's rumblings about a 25 year Trump Dynasty (or whatever the period he mentioned) a few months ago, followed by yesterday encouraging protesters to disobey State directions after saying 24 hours earlier that the States could do what they need in terms of reopening...after saying 24 hours before that that the States would be bent to his rule. A day or two before that he was saying that his power is absolute.

If that isn't rattling towards the far right.....

Man I'm glad I live in Australia!

[woodPixel]

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.

Interesting times. :rolleyes:


Hehe. DSD. I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about, so I modernised it.

Yeah. Wow. JHC did I get into some strife! :) :)

[woodPixel]

So you worked in a call centre?

Gardener. Just a lowly gardener. Or the canteen, just a know-nothing grunt.

Everyone works in the canteen. Except for some cleaners.

:)

[FenceFurniture]

From the Guardian blog:
Coronavirus live news: US accused of 'dereliction of duty' as deaths in Spain top 20,000 | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/18/coronavirus-live-news-global-deaths-pass-150000-trump-china-china-denies-any-concealment-pence-origins-europe-germany?page=with:block-5e9afa068f080ee110447531#block-5e9afa068f080ee110447531)

"Trump, who has clashed with Democratic governors over how soon to reopen the US economy, tweeted his support (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1251169217531056130) on Friday, in an unprecedented endorsement of civil disobedience by a sitting president."


What a place.

[woodhutt]

why are they counteracting the Trump mouthpiece? Why not just report the news?

They are reporting the news. The news is that DT is constantly making untrue statements (no one lies anymore apparently. They just "mis-speak") and there is a need to correct his statements/claims. The alternative is to allow his statements - which in many cases are provably untrue - to go unchallenged. If someone is constantly "mis-speaking" and therefore constantly needs correcting, then it takes on the appearance of a personal attack.
Pete

[Greg Ward]

I live in a forest, I have a garden there where I grow my food. My family and I live in a home with screen doors.
It’s been a bad autumn and 1 million mosquitoes have invaded my garden, 10 of them carry malaria which may kill me if I am bitten.
I need to go to the garden daily for food. It was OK for the last few months while I had Aeroguard protection, but I’ve run out.
Now every time I go out for food, I get bitten by one mosquito and a further 10 follow me back into to the house. We kill 9 but one always bites one of the family.
We are safe from them if we stay in the house, but we will die from starvation.

This is Donald Trump's dilemma.
Can you help him?

[FenceFurniture]

If someone is constantly "mis-speaking" and therefore constantly needs correcting, then it takes on the appearance of a personal attack.Which is why Trump hates the press so passionately - they see through him and keep exposing him. In the Guardian blog, for example, they constantly correct the same lies, exaggerations and understatements. I have read some of the same corrections countless times, and whilst that can become tedious at times, it is necessary to counteract the lies every time they are spoken, to avoid the Goebbels Effect.


According to the Washington Post (via the Examiner (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-has-made-more-than-16-000-false-or-misleading-statements-since-inauguration-report)) he has lied 16,241 times since taking office. Gawd knows what the number would be up to now because he has been absolutely on fire in the last 3 months.

[Glider]

Greg, I don't think anybody can help Donald Trump but I'm not sure he needs it yet. It's his constituents who are in trouble.

Substitute Ross River or Dengue fever for malaria in your case and you're close to the money. Bushman is the best mozzie and sandfly repellent out there with 80% diethyl toluamide (DEET) in their ointment.

mick

[FenceFurniture]

Can anyone imagine this scene in Australia? Simply because they are sick of the lockdown?

471993
Jeff Kowalsky/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

What's more, they are almost exclusively overweight middle-aged WHITE males with goatees. Not a woman in sight. I think there might be something in that for all of us.

[Glider]

At least one bloke has a pistol and another is toting an assault rifle! :o

I guess this is what they mean by a well regulated militia.

mick