Katoomba Monthly Temp average set to be SMASHED!!! AGAIN!!!

[RossM]

Paper That Blames The Sun For Climate Change Was Just Retracted From Major Journal (https://www.sciencealert.com/a-paper-that-blames-the-sun-for-climate-change-has-been-retracted)

But begs the question - why on earth did they publish it to begin with?? Seems like a failure of the peer review process.

[FenceFurniture]

Paper That Blames The Sun For Climate Change Was Just Retracted From Major Journal (https://www.sciencealert.com/a-paper-that-blames-the-sun-for-climate-change-has-been-retracted)Bloody hell, that seems like a fundamentally stupid mistake!

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

According to ABS, there were 14.5 million passenger vehicles in Australia on 31 January 2019. Let us consider a scenario where each car is replaced by one horse - 14,500,000 horses and most of them in the cities because that is where we live. Sure would generate a lot of manure. Happy times for gardeners!

I'd like to see the numbers crunched on that. How would the extra methane (another greenhouse gas) produced by that many horses compare to the exhaust gases of as many cars?

I know it's an unfair comparison, but still...

If the numbers were even remotely comparable, I suspect the world would've taken action long before now, even if only because having to continually scrape pooh off your boots is much more... personal.

[GraemeCook]

Potassium metal battery emerges as a rival to lithium-ion technology (https://techxplore.com/news/2020-03-potassium-metal-battery-emerges-rival.html)

Nice :)

Unfortunately, it is only in the early days of laboratory research.
Full Page Reload (https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/its-still-early-but-potassium-batteries-are-showing-promise-for-grid-storage?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=techalert-03-05-20&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTWpreVlqRXdZV05rTldReSIsInQiOiJEaFwvTVVQRkh3NkVuTk93Y0hyWVRWdnkxZWJEd1wvWVRibXlydzRJNWJQSUU4OXA5bmZzY2VuOXlMYzNyNzNnQ3RLWTNiSmhEbVhKMFhKZnVoZkdJVlI3Vm5NdGRYTm5JcUFDQUZPcjJcL0p3SkRoQjRxR3lpS3Y5V1l0cVRkWnZpUGREekJORExhcEs5NzNYUmliVTJPRFE9PSJ9)

Remember, less than 1% of university research ever gets to commercial projects.

[woodPixel]

How times change. One hundred years ago when the T-model Ford was replacing horses, people lauded the new fangled horseless carriages as being so much less polluting than poor old Dobbin.

According to ABS, there were 14.5 million passenger vehicles in Australia on 31 January 2019. Let us consider a scenario where each car is replaced by one horse - 14,500,000 horses and most of them in the cities because that is where we live. Sure would generate a lot of manure. Happy times for gardeners!

Reminds me of this Hypothetical: Great horse manure crisis of 1894 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_horse_manure_crisis_of_1894)

[Bushmiller]

Unfortunately, it is only in the early days of laboratory research.
Full Page Reload (https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/its-still-early-but-potassium-batteries-are-showing-promise-for-grid-storage?utm_source=techalert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=techalert-03-05-20&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTWpreVlqRXdZV05rTldReSIsInQiOiJEaFwvTVVQRkh3NkVuTk93Y0hyWVRWdnkxZWJEd1wvWVRibXlydzRJNWJQSUU4OXA5bmZzY2VuOXlMYzNyNzNnQ3RLWTNiSmhEbVhKMFhKZnVoZkdJVlI3Vm5NdGRYTm5JcUFDQUZPcjJcL0p3SkRoQjRxR3lpS3Y5V1l0cVRkWnZpUGREekJORExhcEs5NzNYUmliVTJPRFE9PSJ9)

Remember, less than 1% of university research ever gets to commercial projects.

Graeme

Yes indeed. From the last paragraph of that article:

“It will take time to figure out the exact combination of electrolyte, cathode, and anode,” Pol says. “It might take another 15 years from now to get to the market.”

Regards
Paul

[AlexS]

Paper That Blames The Sun For Climate Change Was Just Retracted From Major Journal (https://www.sciencealert.com/a-paper-that-blames-the-sun-for-climate-change-has-been-retracted)

But begs the question - why on earth did they publish it to begin with?? Seems like a failure of the peer review process.

I guess it worked, just a bit slower than it should. Normally, gross errors and mistakes should be picked up by the magazine's reviewers, leaving readers to comment/dispute/confirm the conclusions without having to worry about mistakes.

[woodPixel]

Perhaps, rather than produce electricity for the purposes of inputting it into the grid - they could become a bitcoin mining operation.

Plonk down a massive solar grid in the middle of nowhere (cheap land!) and pop in a few coin miner machines (automated!) and a satellite uplink....

Minting money the modern way :)

Bloomberg - this-utility-heats-new-york-state-and-mines-its-own-bitcoin (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-05/this-utility-heats-new-york-state-and-mines-its-own-bitcoin?sref=5REZoVy2)

[FenceFurniture]

Mine saffron. It's worth twice the price of gold....at Woollies anyway.

[NeilS]

Minting money the modern way :)

Bloomberg - this-utility-heats-new-york-state-and-mines-its-own-bitcoin (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-05/this-utility-heats-new-york-state-and-mines-its-own-bitcoin?sref=5REZoVy2)



One of my offspring ran a cryptocurrency mining operation for a while. He lives in the world of high end graphic processing, so has the know how on the required technologies.

Three issues concerned him; you get paid in the cryptocurrency and that is a gamble, returns for miners halve periodically, and, most significantly for him, the energy they consume is profligate in a world challenged with reducing its emissions.

Yes, a solar farm in the desert will not be adding to emissions, but that renewable energy should be put to better use than enabling Darknet trading and unproductive investing.

[poundy]

slightly tangential, but a lot of the global discussion seems well captured in the most recent xkcd (https://xkcd.com/2278/)...

[woodPixel]

Here is a rather interesting report/read about the uptake of CO2 in Biomass.

Biomass fuels can significantly mitigate global warming | EurekAlert! Science News (https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-03/aabu-bfc030920.php)

[woodPixel]

I wonder if, with the plague shutting everything down everywhere, whether this has had a recordable, measurable impact to the positive to world already?

Not just in one region, but are the atmospheric people saying "well, gee whizz, look at THAT"....

[NeilS]

I wonder if, with the plague shutting everything down everywhere, whether this has had a recordable, measurable impact to the positive to world already?

Not just in one region, but are the atmospheric people saying "well, gee whizz, look at THAT"....

Airborne Nitrogen Dioxide Plummets Over China (https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/146362/airborne-nitrogen-dioxide-plummets-over-china)

Italy's coronavirus response dramatically reduces air pollution emissions, satellites show | Space (https://www.space.com/italy-coronavirus-outbreak-response-reduces-emissions-satellite-images.html)

[FenceFurniture]

See? Get rid of human activity and the planet will heal itself.

:minigun:

Who's first then eh?

:russian:

[RossM]

I wonder if, with the plague shutting everything down everywhere, whether this has had a recordable, measurable impact to the positive to world already?

Not just in one region, but are the atmospheric people saying "well, gee whizz, look at THAT"....

Aircraft contrails & associated albedo impacts will be affected. Whether or not this will have a measurable impact on weather is debatable. The changes from the grounding of planes after the 911 attacks were measurable, but impacts are still being analysed and initial claims of effects on weather have been refuted in some studies.

Short term changes in travel & consumer activities are not going to have a climatic impact. However if this virus were to result in long term behavioral change (such as far fewer commuters, significantly less international travel etc) then I suspect it could have a positive benefit for climate.

[rwbuild]

See? Get rid of human activity and the planet will heal itself.

:minigun:

Who's first then eh?

:russian:

Seeing as how you have been the most vocal about it, lead on McDuff......

[FenceFurniture]

Whether or not this will have a measurable impact on weather is debatable. The changes from the grounding of planes after the 911 attacks were measurable, but impacts are still being analysed and initial claims of effects on weather have been refuted in some studies.Yes. It took 150 or so years for the weather to be (noticeably) affected, so a few weeks/months off won't have any real affect at all. Certainly, just like in the weeks leading up to the Beijing Olympics, a few weeks off has an immediate affect on pollution, which can be seen. (it's like the old having a plaster cast verses poor mental health...nothing to see so it isn't real.)

[FenceFurniture]

Seeing as how you have been the most vocal about it, lead on McDuff......Nah, some noble soul has to be last :russian:

[woodPixel]

Its was just a question :)

No need for executions. The WuFlu will fix that given time.

Like the grounds around Chernobyl and Fukushima, I'd be keen to see if we (as in, The Entire World) locked away in our caves for 4 or 8 weeks, will lead to a good chunk of global change in some highly measurable, non-esoteric measure.

Its one thing to look at India, Iran and China and bzzzztttt, 2 billion gone... but since we arent driving and belching into the air..... well, how long until Nature aserts itself.

Will we see a blip?

If so, those conservatives are going to have a collective coniptive hernia and stroke!

[ian]

Its one thing to look at India, Iran and China and bzzzztttt, 2 billion gone... but since we arent driving and belching into the air..... well, how long until Nature aserts itself.

Will we see a blip?
almost certainly no.

atmospheric CO2 has a half-life of 100 years. (I believe the scale is logarithmic so 100 years is probably more an approximation than an exact figure.) What that means is that in 500 year's time, call it the year 2500, 3% of the CO2 added in just 2019 will still be floating around in the atmosphere. Factor in the 50 years since just 1970 and the amount of carbon dioxide to be broken by solar radiation down is huge.

BTW
atmospheric CH4 (methane) has a half life of 12 years (same caveat as for CO2) so for a person born today, by the end if their life-time most of the methane will be gone. The only little problem being with current temperatures the permafrost is melting and the continental shelf methane clathrate deposits are potentially unstable. Methane has a global warming potential (compared to CO2) of 86 over 20 years and 34 over 100 years.


General air pollution (nitrogenous oxides, sulfur oxides, etc) on the other hand will most likely show a very obvious temporary decline.

[woodPixel]

Well, here is some bad news for the emerging tech companies....

WTI (the good stuff) is now down to $23.35 a barrel.

The poor old Aussie Dollerydoo is getting it in the neck too, but that price will translate into raw input costs of 1/4 of what was previously. Are we looking at 80c a litre fuel?

Even RBOB (essentially fuel) is down from 3.000 to 0.6698.... a 77% drop from the top.....


This is bad, bad, bad.

Not bad from a price perspective, but bad from an environment one.

The helicopter money will start very soon. What a schite-show this is......


Im tired. Its 2:30am and the markets are going mental. Bed time!

470140

[RossM]

... General air pollution (nitrogenous oxides, sulfur oxides, etc) on the other hand will most likely show a very obvious temporary decline.

Interesting reports from CAMS (the Euro space agency satellite monitoring service), where they have been monitoring NO2 - noticeable declines over Italy & China. Also PM2.5 declines of 20 - 30% over China

As Ian says, this will only be a temporary blip.

Homepage | Copernicus (https://atmosphere.copernicus.eu/)


https://youtu.be/6DWBhp-oKOI

-

[AlexS]

As Ian says, this will only be a temporary blip.


-
...unless COVID 19 ensures that we are just a temporary blip.

[Lappa]

According to Bronwyn Bishop it’s all going to plan:oo:

[FenceFurniture]

There is actually some other news out there besides Covid 19! :D

But it's not good.

From Nasa this morning:
Greenland, Antarctica Melting Six Times Faster Than in the 1990s – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet (https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2958/greenland-antarctica-melting-six-times-faster-than-in-the-1990s/)

[woodPixel]

and here is one to completely bugger up my arguments!

Traces of ancient rainforest in Antarctica point to a warmer prehistoric world (https://phys.org/news/2020-04-ancient-rainforest-antarctica-warmer-prehistoric.html)

[FenceFurniture]

Not sure which arguments you mean?

[doug3030]

Not sure which arguments you mean?

I'm just guessing here but it might be this bit
Lead author Dr. Johann Klages, from the Alfred Wegener Institute Helmholtz Centre for Polar and Marine Research, said: "Before our study, the general assumption was that the global carbon dioxide concentration in the Cretaceous was roughly 1000 ppm. But in our model-based experiments, it took concentration levels of 1120 to 1680 ppm to reach the average temperatures back then in the Antarctic."

the possibility that the atmospnere 90 million years ago - pre industrialisation - might have been well over 1000ppm and we are currently not even half of that level today and everyone is saying ity is unprecedented.

[GraemeCook]

... it's not good.

From Nasa this morning:
Greenland, Antarctica Melting Six Times Faster Than in the 1990s – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet (https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2958/greenland-antarctica-melting-six-times-faster-than-in-the-1990s/)

Those pesky coronaviruses are melting the ice !

[RossM]

...the possibility that the atmospnere 90 million years ago - pre industrialisation - might have been well over 1000ppm and we are currently not even half of that level today and everyone is saying ity is unprecedented.
Oh dear - I'm not sure where to even begin. This study has no relevance to contemporary climate change debate. The Cretaceous is more than just a LITTLE bit "pre" in the context of industrialisation. Precedent doesn't even enter into it - the periods are just not comparable.

During the Cretaceous, the continents were in very different positions than they are today. Sections of the supercontinent Pangaea were drifting apart. The Tethys Ocean still separated the northern Laurasia continent from southern Gondwana. The North and South Atlantic were still closed, although the Central Atlantic had begun to open up in the late Jurassic. By the middle of the period, ocean levels were much higher; most of the landmass we are familiar with was underwater. The Cretaceous Thermal Maximum is estimated to have had equatorial sea temperatures about 10C higher than today. It would NOT have been conducive to humanity. But why stop there with our "precedent"?? Perhaps we should include the Hadeon eon - the temperatures there were likely a balmy 200C - 300C. Or maybe that's too warm? Well, lets fast forward to one of the Proterozoic glacial periods - sea ice from the poles to the equator. Somewhat problematic for us humans.

The point is you can't look back at these geologic periods and try to use them for some sort of "normalcy" comparison to what we all are (or should be) concerned with today. Our concerns are ensuring an acceptable environment for us and our descendants to live in and thrive.

[RossM]

But I am reminded of the words of the late, the great and the inimitable George Carlin:


“We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this sh! t. ... The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE are! We’re going away. Pack your sh! t, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas..."

[Bushmiller]

A very quick update for the way wholesale electricity prices are trending. This is from Saturday night (two nights ago):

471027

The prices were similar to this for most of the night. At times they were worse with negative figures. The reason for this is threefold. Firstly Autumn (and Spring) are periods of low demand. Generally there is reduced usage of air conditioners as neither heating nor cooling is required. Secondly, it is the weekend and on a Saturday night much of industry is shut down (Sunday night was better, from a generator's point of view, as industry is beginning to start up again ready for the week). Lastly, the Covid-19 restrictions are having some effect on demand.

Power generation is regarded as an essential industry so you should be assured that we are there for you to keep the beer fridges running.

Regards
Paul

[ian]

Power generation is regarded as an essential industry so you should be assured that we are there for you to keep the beer fridges running.
oh Paul

I remember your earlier post about lamenting the absence of a beer fridge


:wink:

[Bushmiller]

oh Paul

I remember your earlier post about lamenting the absence of a beer fridge


:wink:

Very true Ian

No dedicated beer fridge. It has to share with veg.....tables.

Regards
Paul

[NeilS]

In another thread on Covid-19 some participants in those discussions have pointed to how some with sympathies for policies that favour better medical outcomes over preserving the economy are likely to be also those with 'alarmist views' on climate change. They are partly right, as is the observation that many conservatives are ideologically inclined to favour and preserve the economy as it currently is against any changes that they perceive will weaken it.

The following short (8mins) podcast throws some light on this divide in the context of out discussions here on climate change.

Moving beyond 'us' and 'them' - Ockham's Razor - ABC Radio National (https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/moving-climate-change-discussion-beyond-politics-us-and-them/12113426)

It is therefore not surprising that the ideology bundling referred to in the podcast has also surfaced in the Covid-19 discussions.

The far right has been steam rolled worldwide (by progressive and conservative leaders alike) with the preservation of health being given a priority over the preservation wealth... "Whatever it takes!"

One may think that there has been a fundamental shift with conservative governments taking advice from scientists and the medical fraternity on what has to be done to solve the Covid-19 threat and that this might flow over into accepting advice from scientist on climate change. However, when the pandemic subsides I expect there will be an even more tenacious pushback from the far right against policies that mitigate against climate change. It is already there, but currently drowned out by the greater concern over the pandemic.

The above podcast and the work of Rebecca Huntley (referred to in a much earlier post from me) provide some insights into how to navigate this.

[NeilS]

Power generation is regarded as an essential industry so you should be assured that we are there for you to keep the beer fridges running.



And, very much appreciated Paul.

No electricity, no ventilators!

[FenceFurniture]

In another thread on Covid-19 What other thread? :D



However, when the pandemic subsides I expect there will be an even more tenacious pushback from the far right against policies that mitigate against climate change. It is already there, but currently drowned out by the greater concern over the pandemic.I think that will be exactly right Neil. The cry will be "The economy is already buggered for decades to come - and you want to do more damage to it?"

[RossM]

Double post

[RossM]

however, when the pandemic subsides i expect there will be an even more tenacious pushback from the far right against policies that mitigate against climate change. It is already there, but currently drowned out by the greater concern over the pandemic.i think that will be exactly right neil. The cry will be "the economy is already buggered for decades to come - and you want to do more damage to it?"

I suspect the strategists in the fossil fuel industry are already working on spinning this to their advantage. It will be things like "we need more coal mines to get people back into jobs, so damn the regulations & just approve them" and "We need to export more fossil fuel to kick start the economy out of hibernation" . I would be surprised if the lobbyists are not already hard at work bending the ears of the politicians.

And just wait until the likes of the Alan Jones get on the bandwagon. (Who, on another note, was making dangerous assertions about the Covid-19 response, saying it was just hysteria - while hypocritically doing so while holed up & isolated in Fortress Fitzroy Falls)

[woodPixel]

https://youtu.be/p7LDk4D3Q3U

[woodPixel]

This is the cloud generating idea I was going on about many pages back.

Turns out that its a thing!

If we can hook these up to wind turbines to generate the power, we can put them on pontoons.

Researchers successfully trial world-first cloud-brightening technology off Townsville - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/12158232)

[AlexS]

It sounds promising, but as the researcher said, it's not a permanent solution.

[woodPixel]

Artificial intelligence helps researchers produce record-setting catalyst for carbon dioxide-to-ethylene conversion (https://phys.org/news/2020-05-artificial-intelligence-record-setting-catalyst-carbon.html)

Imagine this on the farm!

A few windmills, spinners on the roof, solar panels, heat panels.... all this backed into plastic batteries and these new CO2-->Ethylene generators.

Magic!

[woodPixel]

Well, that won't get me On The List :)

In a First, Renewable Energy Is Poised to Eclipse Coal in U.S. - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/climate/coronavirus-coal-electricity-renewables.html)

Seems that renewables now out-generate coal in the USA.

Death to COAL!

[Lappa]

Looks promising but there are a lot of ifs and buts in the article. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens when industry gets cranked up again.

[woodPixel]

250MWh of energy
£85m
Store power for many weeks


Climate emission killer: construction begins on world’s biggest liquid air battery | Renewable energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk)

We need Thousands of these! Put them everywhere.

Local storage. Industrial estates. Data centres (they can also use the heat and cold)

[FenceFurniture]

Sounds very interesting indeed. I wonder how big the footprint is (including the required turbine, and I wonder what it's efficiency is?

[GraemeCook]

Sounds very interesting indeed. I wonder how big the footprint is (including the required turbine, and I wonder what it's efficiency is?

Me, too.

Considering that air liquifies at -196*C it will require one hell of a refrigeration system to both liquify the air and to hold it below -196 degrees.

If the 'fridge fails, does it go bang?

[FenceFurniture]

... and to hold it below -196 degrees.

If the 'fridge fails, does it go bang?It doesn't need refrigeration after it is compressed (AFAIK) - the containment keeps it liquid. (think of a regular welding gas cylinder)

[GraemeCook]

It doesn't need refrigeration after it is compressed (AFAIK) - the containment keeps it liquid. (think of a regular welding gas cylinder)


I visited an Otsuka air liquifaction plant in Shikoku, Japan many years ago and refrigeration was certainly used in the surprisingly complicated manufacturing process and in the bulk storage area. Deliveries were essentially made in "thermos flasks".

Just checked the science, remembering air is c.20% oxygen. "....oxygen cannot be liquified above a temperature of -119 degrees Celsius, no matter how much you compress it...." QES.

[FenceFurniture]

Well, something doesn't add up. Oxygen boiling temp is -183°C. Argon (commonly used in Welding) boiling temp is -186°.
Plumbers etc do not carrying Argon around in anything but a pressurised tank.
Oxy-Acetylene is a bottle of Acetylene and a bottle of oxygen isn't it?

It might be a case of not being able to be liquefied above -119°C regardless of pressure, but once it is liquid then it might be able to be held that way with pressure.

Where's a Physicist when you need one? :D


My overall point being that if it requires that level of refrigeration to keep it liquefied then it can't possibly be viable as a form of power storage - it would use itself up in no time at all.

[GraemeCook]

Well, something doesn't add up. Oxygen boiling temp is -183°C. Argon (commonly used in Welding) boiling temp is -186°.
Plumbers etc do not carrying Argon around in anything but a pressurised tank.
Oxy-Acetylene is a bottle of Acetylene and a bottle of oxygen isn't it?

It might be a case of not being able to be liquefied above -119°C regardless of pressure, but once it is liquid then it might be able to be held that way with pressure.

Where's a Physicist when you need one? :D


My overall point being that if it requires that level of refrigeration to keep it liquefied then it can't possibly be viable as a form of power storage - it would use itself up in no time at all.


My understanding, FF, is as follows:

Acelylene gas is actually disolved in acetone in those gas cylinders,
Oxygen bottles contain pressurised oxygen, not liquified, and the OP was all about liquifaction.


SCUBA dive bottles are normally filled with straight air compressed to about 3,000 psi pressure. Back in the sixties I saw the aftermath of where the valve was broken off a dive bottle converting it into a self propelled rocket (literally). It went through a wooden roof rafter and corregated iron roof - very clean round hole - and landed about a kilometre away. Scary!

Fully agree with your overall point.

[FenceFurniture]

Oxygen bottles contain pressurised oxygen, not liquified, and the OP was all about liquifaction.Ah yes, probably right.

BUT your bottle of LPG gas for the BBQ is definitely liquid (we can feel it swirling around) and doesn't require refrigeration. Propane liquefies at -42° (significantly higher than O2), but the point is that the laws of physics apply equally - but scaled.

Consider this: if it did require refrigeration to stay liquid - and there was a problem with the fridge - that hole in the wooden roof would be a stroll in the park compared to what one of those big boys would do.


Back in 1990 by sheer chance I happened to witness a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion) near Sydney Airport (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12617110-800-liquid-petroleum-gas-explosion-outside-sydney/#). I happened to be standing on the front porch having a fag at home in Miranda and saw the MASSIVE explosion fully 14 kilometres away (we had a good clear view right to the city from there). We all thought a plane had gone down! Somehow, I had the presence of mind to start counting the seconds when I saw the second one go up. The sound took about 40 seconds to reach us, which confirmed it was somewhere near the Airport. It threw a 60,000 litre tank 150 metres away. (that's about a 4 metre cube - 60 cubic metres - twice the volume of my entire shed which is 5x3x2 roughly). What would the tank weigh - 5 tonnes or something? Sans gas of course!

[RossM]

Air was first liquefied by Carl von Linde, who used a very clever trick to use the use air cooled by expansion to pre-cool itself - a feedback effect that produced the low temperatures needed to liquefy the so called "permanent" gasses that air is comprised of.

The air is compressed, increasing its temperature. The hot high-pressure air is then cooled in a heat exchanger and then further cooled by a second heat exchanger to below ambient temperature. The cool, high-pressure air is then allowed to expand rapidly through an expansion nozzle into a collection vessel, which causes it to become very cold. So far, it's just a refrigerator, but Von Linde's trick was to use the cold air that didn't liquefy from the collection vessel and pipe it to the high-pressure air coming from the first heat exchanger, thus cooling it. The more the high-pressure air is cooled before expansion, the colder the air will be after expansion, further cooling the high-pressure air, making the air even colder... positive feedback!! The longer it runs, the colder it gets.

Here is an interesting paper on using liquid air as energy storage:
http://jestec.taylors.edu.my/Vol%2011%20issue%204%20April%202016/Volume%20(11)%20Issue%20(4)%20496-515.pdf

[GraemeCook]

.....
Consider this: if it did require refrigeration to stay liquid - and there was a problem with the fridge - that hole in the wooden roof would be a stroll in the park compared to what one of those big boys would do.
.....


Precisely



....
Back in 1990 by sheer chance I happened to witness a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion) near Sydney Airport (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12617110-800-liquid-petroleum-gas-explosion-outside-sydney/#). I happened to be standing on the front porch having a fag at home in Miranda and saw the MASSIVE explosion fully 14 kilometres away ...

Your fag ignited that at 14 kms ......

[woodPixel]

Ha! I remember that explosion. Watching it on the telly and news.

Those were the days. Now only the Chinese have stupendous industrial explosions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993wlZ6XFSs).... there are so many there every year, but Tianjin is not too bad....


On the liquid air, its done right now. Its no mystery. BOC does exactly this to obtain Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2 and Argon. I think they also do Xenon (not so sure that is liquid).

I saw the first few ARE liquid, as they take the atmosphere, liquefy it, run it up in a fractal still and draw off the stuff they want. All very old fashioned, well understood and terribly interesting!

I'd imagine the "atmospheric energy" people are essentially doing what BOC does, but selling the by products of cold/heat as a valuable industrial resource, plus they will probably draw off the Argon/Neon/Krypton and sell it! Niiiccceeee!

So, let run one up!



edit - how GOOD is THIS !!! Stench Gas | BOC Gas (https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/gases/more-gases/stench-gas)

[Uncle Al]

Ha! I remember that explosion. Watching it on the telly and news.

Those were the days. Now only the Chinese have stupendous industrial explosions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993wlZ6XFSs).... there are so many there every year, but Tianjin is not too bad....


Crikey, that was an explosion and a half in China!. i wonder how many people were killed when that went off. As for the Boral explosion at St. Peters in 1990, I was leaving a friends place on Russel Street, Emu Plains in western Sydney and saw the sky light up big time, no idea what had happened until the next day. Fortunately there were very few casualties in the St Peters explosion. 30 years ago, time flies.

Alan...

[FenceFurniture]

30 years ago, time flies.So did the tank.


Tianjin explosion ..."Dozens of people were killed". I think they may have eliminated the word "thousands" from that sentence. "Dozens of THOUSANDS of people were killed" would be more like it.

[FenceFurniture]

HEY! :D

I just read a short but fascinating news article about a new battery tech using Zinc Bromide in a gel form.

Storage battery production to create renewable energy solution and jobs in Sydney'''s west - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-10/storage-battery-will-create-renewable-energy-solution-and-jobs/100448940)

Sounds pretty groovy actually. There must be some downside to it, because there usually is something to be traded off, but the ability to charge to 100% and discharge to zero, combined with refusing to catch fire below 600°C sounds pretty good.