Katoomba Monthly Temp average set to be SMASHED!!! AGAIN!!!

[doug3030]

Someone asked about Canberra smoke.

For direct comparison I've no way of knowing how bad others have had it, but it has been continuous here. Some days it has been severe and dense. It tends to come and go to an extent, but I cant really recall a day in the last few weeks which was clear. It would be easy to describe it as "bad". Many building sites are closed due to it.

The radio this morning reported that Melbourne had the worst air quality for any major city in the world today due to the smoke from the Gippsland fires.

I had to go to a medical appointment this morning and visibility on the Western Ring Road was about 500 metres on average. As I drove onto the Witton Bridge I could not see the other end of the bridge because of the smoke.

My Mother-in-law is staying with us at the moment as she lives near Benalla which is at risk of the fires up that way. She is a smoker but today she has been seen sitting on the back deck without a cigarette in her hand just inhaling.

We are expecting a wind change and rain tomorrow which should bring some relief.

[woodPixel]

Here is the answer to whether the Wollemei Pines survived the fires.

NSW fires: Wollemi pines saved by secret RFS firefighting mission (https://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/incredible-secret-firefighting-mission-saves-famous-dinosaur-trees-20200115-p53rom.html)

This was mentioned in Nature magazine! (I despise the SMH).

[FenceFurniture]

NASA, via The New York Times, has published a similar map for the world, showing we've just had the hottest decade on record.

467273

[FenceFurniture]

The World Meteorological Association has stated 2019 was AUstralia's hottest and driest, and the second hottest for the world (2016 was the hottest).
Australia has 'hottest, driest' year on record as 2019 named second-hottest year worldwide, WMO says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-16/climate-report-finds-2019-second-hottest-year-on-record-wmo/11872344)

[FenceFurniture]

As forecast, we are getting excellent fire dousing rain here right now! :clap2: :hpydans: :woot:

467297

(We are the orange/red bit above the word Camden)


So, I've changed my mind on Climate Change - it's all bullsh.

[Bohdan]

So, I've changed my mind on Climate Change - it's all bullsh.

When did you become a politishun.

[FenceFurniture]

When the weather changed.

[rwbuild]

The Wollami Pines secret location is no longer a secret, anyone in a plane can now easily find them or someone who has advanced access to satellite imagery, the only patch of green in a burnt landscape in a deep gorge, by the same token, well done to save them.

But compare that effort to what should have been done prior and contributed to the loss of life, homes, business, agriculture, infrastructure, animals, wildlife

[FenceFurniture]

The Wollemi Pines secret location is no longer a secret, anyone in a plane can now easily find them or someone who has advanced access to satellite imagery, the only patch of green in a burnt landscape in a deep gorge, by the same token, well done to save them.

But compare that effort to what should have been done prior and contributed to the loss of life, homes, business, agriculture, infrastructure, animals, wildlifeAgreed Ray. I was going to post that anyone who can read a topographic map could actually work it out from the picture in the Guardian (in hi-res to boot), and that's a helluva lot more people than those who can fly!

WRT your second statement - if SmoKo had shown some leadership back in....oooh, I dunno, say November....those now delayed Air Tankers would have been a) cheaper (because of the short notice fiscal penalty) and b) much more importantly HERE bloody ages ago!

[FenceFurniture]

I have just sent an email to adam.morton@the guardian.com and I would encourage everyone else to do the same.

"Dear Sir

The publication you work for claims to be an eponymous guardian. Yet you have just revealed the location of the Wollemi Pines, which has been secret for over 25 years.

I cannot believe the gross unthinking irresponsibility in publishing the picture of the Wollemi pines. ANYONE who can read a topographic map (and I presume that does not include yourself) can now locate them! Ask someone who knows maps how they can!

A (much) lesser group of people who can now locate them are those that have access to small aircraft - not terribly hard to spot the only green parts in a burnt wilderness.

You must take that picture down immediately for the sake of the Pines - the fires didn't get them as a result of an enormous effort, but you just might have with this foolishness! If your story was approved by NPWS or the Environment Minister then they are just as foolish!

(a very irate, and practical) Brett Furniture (:D I used my normal name)
Katoomba"

[rwbuild]

The problem started well before the first fire and I suggest that a whole range of people need to share a degree of responsibility for what has happened and from various backgrounds, its very easy to single out an individual with 20/20 hindsight and it doesn't change what has happened BUT modify, change, plan or improve as best can be done with lessons learnt to mitigate/deal with future scenarios.

[FenceFurniture]

I'm referring to this gross irresponsibility:
'Dinosaur trees': firefighters save endangered Wollemi pines from NSW bushfires | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/15/dinosaur-trees-firefighters-save-endangered-wollemi-pines-from-nsw-bushfires)

[FenceFurniture]

Actually, the World Heritage Unit of NPWS is literally just around the corner from me, about 300m away, so I'm going to go and ask them tomorrow morning what they would think if I could tell them the location of the Wollemi Pines because of a news article.

[woodPixel]

Those Wollemis are worth a million houses.

Houses can be rebuilt.

Those trees are utterly irreplaceable.

[ian]

I'm referring to this gross irresponsibility:
'Dinosaur trees': firefighters save endangered Wollemi pines from NSW bushfires | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/15/dinosaur-trees-firefighters-save-endangered-wollemi-pines-from-nsw-bushfires)
Hi Brett

Don't get too p1ssed off with The Guardian and the Wollemi Pines.

The exact area of the pines can be seen on these publicly available satellite images
https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/sentinel-playground/?source=S2&lat=-32.94688595560646&lng=150.44076919555664&zoom=12&preset=91_SWIR&layers=B01,B02,B03&maxcc=20&gain=1.0&gamma=1.0&time=2019-06-01%7C2019-12-23&atmFilter=&showDates=false
and
EOS landviewer: https://eos.com/landviewer/?lat=-33.827 ... .51244&z=4 (https://eos.com/landviewer/?lat=-33.82793&lng=151.51244&z=4) set to 'Healthy Vegetation'

It provides me with images like this, red=good

<dl class="file" style="margin-right: margin-bottom: 4px; margin- font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><dt class="attach-image" style="margin: padding: 941.004px; max- 80 auto; font-weight: bold;">http://tasmania.bushwalk.com/forum/download/file.php?id=54468&sid=52d4c620c119c2742e486152cd555109</dt><dd style="margin: padding: color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
</dd></dl>

Info pulled from a Bushwalking web site -- it's all public domain

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Ian

Well I think you would need a lot more knowledge to use the satellite techniques (over a simple Topo map), and nor is the clue splashed all over a newspaper.

[doug3030]

Well I think you would need a lot more knowledge to use the satellite techniques (over a simple Topo map), and nor is the clue splashed all over a newspaper.

Brett, I think you might be overestimating the average person's ability to read a topographical map.In 20 years of Army service I did not find many soldiers who were very good at that. When I got out of the Army I joined the local SES and volunteered to be the unit instructor. Like in the Army, I found that most of the "experts" could plot coordinates and calculate grid and magnetic bearings accurately. But ask them to look at the map and describe the terrain they would encounter on a walk from point A to point B and they had no clue.

[FenceFurniture]

Maybe Doug, but the point is that to get there you would need to be an experienced bushwalker....and they do know how to read maps. Now, you might say that such a person wouldn't want to harm the trees anyway. However, they could do so unknowingly by traipsing in weed seeds on their boots, or similar.

They have gone to all this trouble to protect the area (and I mean previous efforts of secrecy) so they must be somewhat concerned about dickheads going in there. I spent 10 minutes doing a rudimentary study this morning and I think I know roughly where they are. I couldn't be bothered spending the time to nut it out - but I could with more time, and relatively easily too, if I really wanted too. I'm not sure if I have the correct map that covers it, but I do have a library of maps.

Anyone who was in the Scouts would be able to read a topo map - it's not hard at all once you have a smattering of training.

[rustynail]

They would be pretty easy to find now. Probably the only green patch left in the Wallemi.

[woodPixel]

Thats a lot of effort to go to, trudging in, avoiding lethal bear traps, vicious dogs, electric fences, hidden park ninjas with heat tracking cameras and now (apparently) space-based Directed Energy Weapons (lasers!)

The bought ones are all clones....

Nothing hard about growing a cutting off a $30 nursery plant.


edit - I'm a keen gardener. I've made hundred of cuttings and whatnot. Some plants are more successful than others. As a pine, however, these things are like weeds. The cones are prodigious.

Here is some direct info on growing your own: Wollemi pine (Wollemia nobilis) - Plant profile, Pictures - Nurseries Online (https://www.nurseriesonline.com.au/plant-index/australian-native-plants/wollemi-pine/)

[ian]

Maybe Doug, but the point is that to get there you would need to be an experienced bushwalker....and they do know how to read maps. Now, you might say that such a person wouldn't want to harm the trees anyway. However, they could do so unknowingly by traipsing in weed seeds on their boots, or similar.

They have gone to all this trouble to protect the area (and I mean previous efforts of secrecy) so they must be somewhat concerned about dickheads going in there. I spent 10 minutes doing a rudimentary study this morning and I think I know roughly where they are. I couldn't be bothered spending the time to nut it out - but I could with more time, and relatively easily too, if I really wanted too.
Brett
I'm pretty certain that the location of the Wollemi Pines has been an open secret since the pines were discovered by Dave Noble back in 1994.

Those in the know are not telling and by the same token the "closed" area is not signed as being closed. Presumably this is because by not publicising the location of the area, the location can be kept sort of secret. (In one of the links I came across, there was a comment to the effect that in future the pine's location might need to be disclosed in order to keep visitors away from the area.)

[Bushmiller]

I had previously thought that the Wollemi area was top secret and virtually classified. I believe it will be clearly identifiable now by the irrigation pipes in place to (wet down the surrounding vegetation).

My own experience of growing Wollemi Pines was dismal to put it mildly. They all died and then it seemed they were pulled off the market. They were nowhere near as easy to grow as was originally purported. I had not realised they were on sale again. At $89 a pop (reduced from $99) plus freight out of Brisbane, I assume, they are an expensive exercise if it all goes to "pot."

Regards
Paul

[rwbuild]

Speaking of "pot", there won't be much growing anywhere now for a while and if they do it will be fairly easy to find

[doug3030]

Speaking of "pot", there won't be much growing anywhere now for a while and if they do it will be fairly easy to find

Those who are growing it hydroponically in their garage will be doing alright for a while.

[FenceFurniture]

Sir David Attenborough's view (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2020/jan/17/david-attenborough-calls-australias-bushfires-the-moment-of-crisis-to-address-climate-change) of the link between CC and the current fires. Interesting comment on China at the end.

[woodPixel]

The family watched a BBC doco last night on the oceans.

Talk about dire.

It was done a year ago.

The areas that were labelled in that doco are these very areas identified in this article today on collapse: Huge ‘hot blob’ in Pacific Ocean killed nearly a million seabirds | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/16/hot-blob-ocean-seabirds-killed-new-zealand-north-america)


Im reminded of an old investment maxim: "One goes broke slowly, then fast".

The end for us humans? I think so.

[rustynail]

Wollemi pines discovered in 1994? Rubbish! The old timber cutters new of them 100 years ago. My old neighbour (94 years old) used to talk about them back in the 1970's and his dad before that. It's just the boffins have managed to fall over them now.

[Chris Parks]

Speaking of "pot", there won't be much growing anywhere now for a while and if they do it will be fairly easy to find

Funny story time. We had been at a relatively small bush fire and just closed a main road to deal with it when a few of the local Lads showed up and then ran into the bush and everyone knew they were trying to recover their dope garden. The controller in charge decided to get on the PA in one of the trucks and announce we were going to start a back burn and it might be a good idea if the local lads got out. We all broke up laughing but I can't remember if they came out with anything.

[Glider]

Wollemi pines discovered in 1994? Rubbish! The old timber cutters new of them 100 years ago. My old neighbour (94 years old) used to talk about them back in the 1970's and his dad before that. It's just the boffins have managed to fall over them now.

There's a big difference. The "boffins" recognised their significance and knew enough to do something about it. The aborigines probably knew about them 50,000 years ago.

mick

[woodPixel]

Funny story time. We had been at a relatively small bush fire and just closed a main road to deal with it when a few of the local Lads showed up and then ran into the bush and everyone knew they were trying to recover their dope garden. The controller in charge decided to get on the PA in one of the trucks and announce we were going to start a back burn and it might be a good idea if the local lads got out. We all broke up laughing but I can't remember if they came out with anything.

Apparently the fires flushed out a massive meth lab here :)

40kg with the ability to make 1000 more at a time.

Bet that caused some consternation!

Such an uncomplicated, straight forward process. They'll never get it under control. We need to treat these things medically rather than criminally.

[rustynail]

There's a big difference. The "boffins" recognised their significance and knew enough to do something about it. The aborigines probably knew about them 50,000 years ago.

mick
I think the old guys were well aware of their significance. That's why they were a talking point. As for the boffins knowing enough to do something about it, we shall wait and see.

[FenceFurniture]

Malcolm Turnbull's view on CC (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/23/malcolm-turnbull-criticises-scott-morrison-for-downplaying-bushfire-crisis) (quote from a BBC interview, via the Guardian):

“If you go to any of the rightwing thinktanks or read the Murdoch press it is just full of climate denialism,” he said. “And it is designed to deflect from the real objective which has to be to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.

“To be a climate change denier is a badge of honour on the right wing of politics here and in the US, and it is mad.”


Turnbull said Australia was “in the frontline of the consequences” and needed to act on the climate crisis to show the world that it was important.


“How many more coral reefs have to be bleached, how many more million hectares of forest have to be burned?” he asked. “How many more lives and homes have to be lost before the climate change deniers acknowledge they are wrong?


“If a country like Australia is not prepared to grapple with this issue seriously, itself being in the frontline of the consequences and being an advanced, prosperous, technologically sophisticated country, with the means to do so, then why would other countries take the issue as seriously as they should?”

[Simplicity]

Malcolm Turnbull's view on CC (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/23/malcolm-turnbull-criticises-scott-morrison-for-downplaying-bushfire-crisis) (quote from a BBC interview, via the Guardian):

“If you go to any of the rightwing thinktanks or read the Murdoch press it is just full of climate denialism,” he said. “And it is designed to deflect from the real objective which has to be to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions.

“To be a climate change denier is a badge of honour on the right wing of politics here and in the US, and it is mad.”


Turnbull said Australia was “in the frontline of the consequences” and needed to act on the climate crisis to show the world that it was important.


“How many more coral reefs have to be bleached, how many more million hectares of forest have to be burned?” he asked. “How many more lives and homes have to be lost before the climate change deniers acknowledge they are wrong?


“If a country like Australia is not prepared to grapple with this issue seriously, itself being in the frontline of the consequences and being an advanced, prosperous, technologically sophisticated country, with the means to do so, then why would other countries take the issue as seriously as they should?”

Brett,
I unfortunately think some deniers will get to this stage, before they change there attitude.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200123/dfd4d136113d29691aa213fa21816788.jpg

Cheers Matt.

[woodPixel]

The last 3 weeks we've had here:

- two record maximum hot days - 44°
- a dozen days over 36° (see *)
- two galactic firestorms within spitting distance
- weeks of choking heavy smoke
- hail the size of golf balls that smashed an ENTIRE region to absolute bits
- 3 bloody ripper lightning storms
- 2 huge damaging winds
- a dust storm "Habood" (today)
- 2 big bushfires at Queanbeyan (again, with 10km's of Canberra city)

These are ALL SEPERATE EVENTS.... it all good mate. No Climate Change at all.... cos this is NORMAL**

* Daily Maximum Temperature - 070351 - Bureau of Meteorology (http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=122&p_display_type=dailyDataFile&p_startYear=&p_c=&p_stn_num=070351)
** My effing hairy ass it is.

[crowie]

What about before the BOM actually kept good records...

I wonder what happened in the previous 200, 2000, or 200000 years of Australia????

Just curious, as we don't have records and none of us were here!

I just get sick of the media spin;
it's always sensational news headlines designed to draw the public in as the more viewers they get the more advertisements they can air,
and thus more revenue for the media owners.

[Simplicity]

What about before the BOM actually kept good records...

I wonder what happened in the previous 200, 2000, or 200000 years of Australia????

Just curious, as we don't have records and none of us were here!

I just get sick of the media spin;
it's always sensational news headlines designed to draw the public in as the more viewers they get the more advertisements they can air,
and thus more revenue for the media owners.


We do have records !
Recovers from core drilling’s showing the environmental conditions thousands of years ago.
Scientists have been drilling for core samples .
Which give us a window of the environment 1000 of years ago.
An we know the air an water was a lot nicer(there kind of important stuff).

Cheers Matt

[woodPixel]

I feel Crowie, that what we are experiencing is far from normal.

This anthropological article was published today which would be of interest: DNA from child burials reveals ‘profoundly different’ human landscape in ancient Africa | Science | AAAS (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/dna-child-burials-reveals-profoundly-different-human-landscape-ancient-africa)

It shows that our population and DNA has changed pretty aggressively with the change in environment.

We learn more about the deep past every day.

I dont think what happened 200,000 years ago is even vaguely relevant - what matters is NOW. Can we live here NOW as we'd like?

It isn't conspiracy theories, its scientific fact.

Of interest, I've always tried to consider myself as a curious mind. As a boy, I grew up in Canberra and was fascinated by the nature of the soil. It is almost dead - geologically and biologically. If one were to put a mattock into literally anywhere, it is all broken stone and dead clay. Ancient stuff with almost ZERO biological inclusion. There is no loam, there is no soil, there is no buildup of layers of aeons, millennia, centuries or decades of dirt/soil/muck.... its all rock.

Scratch under the grass and its dry, hard, broken, ancient.

Nothing like Europe and England, where I helped on an archaeological sonde - Each century was a full meter thick! Layer on layer on layer of accretion.

Not here.

It has always interested me. Hence my earlier question posted previously "why so few aboriginals".

I'm, personally, quite certain "we" arrived in a Goldilocks time.

[FenceFurniture]

What about before the BOM actually kept good records...
I wonder what happened in the previous 200, 2000, or 200000 years of Australia????Ice core samples from Antarctica give us a pretty good idea of that. Mind you, we'll need to be quick......a liquid soup will tell us nothing at all!

It also all depends on when the world was formed. Was it 14,000 years ago or was it 4543 million years ago as the science has told us for ...I don't know how long, but way before current technology?

I guess it depends upon who you trust: millions of pages of modern science with all of the excellent technology providing incontrovertible evidence
(and we really only have to look at 200 years worth to see the extraordinary acceleration - much better than any Ford is capable of.... :D)
OR
one book written buy ill-educated *males* all from one tiny region of the planet (modern Israel) (and, realistically, probably uneducated *males*).

I have very great faith in the incontrovertible science.


I just get sick of the media spin;
it's always sensational news headlines designed to draw the public in as the more viewers they get the more advertisements they can air,
and thus more revenue for the media owners.So watch ABC and SBS Peter - contrary to the Govt belief, they have no axe to grind - but they do adopt the Don Chipp principle, whoever the Bastards might be at the time. Furthermore, I have not seen a single advertisement, in any media that I look at, for a decade. (there have been some accidents though) I seriously do not know what 21st Century advertising looks like. No idea whatsoever. Man, I like it that way! I get to make up my own mind. (I don't even see adverts on SBS On Demand - Adblock skips over them - same if I watch Ch 9 on the puta once every 5 years)

[FenceFurniture]

We do have records !Cheers MattAh, yup. For a while yet.



The last 3 weeks we've had here:
- two record maximum hot days - 44°
- a dozen days over 36° (see *)
- two galactic firestorms within spitting distance
- weeks of choking heavy smoke
- hail the size of golf balls that smashed an ENTIRE region to absolute bits
- 3 bloody ripper lightning storms
- 2 huge damaging winds
- a dust storm "Habood" (today)
- 2 big bushfires at Queanbeyan (again, with 10km's of Canberra city)Yes indeed. I do wish that Parliament had been sitting over the last 6 weeks. Reckon there might be a few changes of mind. We have to remember that Politicians are inherently egotistical liars who only really want to serve themselves to the Public Teat of Funds. Anyone with the right character would NEVER consider a career in politics, these days anyway.

You know how huge bushfires create their own weather? Well I'm afraid I have to inform you that this particular problem is far worse, and more common in Canberra, given the considerably larger amount of hot air present. But remember - you may have been born there with no choice, but you CHOSE to stay!:firedevil:


** My effing hairy ass it is.TBH, I'd really prefer NOT to know just how hairy it is, but I'd settle for "slightly".

[rustynail]

The climate is constantly changing. Probably always has and probably always will. The argument should not be directed at its existence but more to how to minimize the effect. As for using Canberra as a barometer, I can't think of anything more ridiculous. It would have to be one of the most inappropriately located cities in the country. Miserable climate, miserable soil and a smog trap. Lovely. And you wonder at the lack of historical Aboriginal occupation?

[AlexS]

What about before the BOM actually kept good records...

I wonder what happened in the previous 200, 2000, or 200000 years of Australia????

Just curious, as we don't have records and none of us were here!


As others have touched on, there are other sources of information. Soil and ice cores have been mentioned, but old ships logs extend the record of directly measured recent air and water temperatures, and atmospheric pressures, for close to 200 years. Almost every scientific discipline has people involved in modelling historical temperatures for geological time spans. These include geologists, botanists, marine, terrestrial and atmospheric biologists, bacteriologists and my personal favourite, one I met is a paleopalynologist. All of these disciplines create models which, while not as accurate as direct measurement, can be calibrated reasonably accurately. One model by itself probably doesn't mean much, but so many models, based on different parameters, nearly all showing the same thing, are a pretty sound indication of what's happening.

[A Duke]

The climate is constantly changing. Probably always has and probably always will. The argument should not be directed at its existence but more to how to minimize the effect. As for using Canberra as a barometer, I can't think of anything more ridiculous. It would have to be one of the most inappropriately located cities in the country. Miserable climate, miserable soil and a smog trap. Lovely. And you wonder at the lack of historical Aboriginal occupation?


Poo of the male moo, I love my little town.

[rustynail]

Poo of the male moo, I love my little town.
Some folk are easily pleased.

[NeilS]

Does Australia have access/control of a geostationary, IR capable satellite with sensors sensitive enough to pinpoint small areas over all of Australia?

I don't know if we here in Australia have any control of any IR satellites, but I used this NASA site to monitor the recent fires here in the Adelaide Hills and on Kangaroo Island. It shows active fires in the last 24hr period. You can zoom right in to get precise locations. Use your mouse to get a an exact coordinate reference.

As you can see, the fires in southern NSW and Vic are still very active in the last 24hrs.

FIRMS - Fire Map (https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#z:4;c:150.4,-28.8;d:2020-02-01..2020-02-02)

[NeilS]

I'm late coming to this discussion having just got back from interstate and before that being distracted by the bush fires here in the Adelaide Hills.

On the MM CC Deniers, I have some in my family and after close observation of them over many decades I see their position as being more one of belief than of coming to an opinion based on any understanding of the available science. Any reading they do on the topic comes from Murdoch rags or pre-packaged bundles of pseudo-facts on denier sites aimed at reassuring themselves of their position.

Many of them also hold the belief that they are being denied the right to hold their beliefs. They feel persecuted and part of a minority group, which is also fertile ground for conspiracy theory promulgaters and shock jocks. No surprise that the latte drinking-lefty-greenies got a serve from that quarter for causing the bush fires by denying controlled fuel reduction burning in National Parks or that it was all caused by arsonists. The explanations and solutions are always simplistic.

In the same way that you won't change someone's religious beliefs with logical argument, I don't try to change their MM CC Denial 'beliefs' with logical argument. You can't. And, it is not surprising that so many MM CC Deniers are also religious fundamentalists. There is a coalition (small c) here in Australia (also in US) between the far right, the religious fundamentalists, social conservatives and MM CC Deniers. They are comfortable with each other and although not all components of that coalition hold to all of the constituent views they are sufficiently adhesive at the moment to hold sway and power here in Australia.

Now, if you think I'm indulging here in a bit of a conspiracy theory myself, have a listen to the podcast with Niki Savva (former senior adviser to to John Howard and Peter Costello) on how ProMo got the top job on his side of the circus. The title of her book, Plots and Prayers, summarises the dirty tricks that were employed by the righteous right.

How brutal politics and righteous prayers toppled a Prime Minister - Conversations - ABC Radio (https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/niki-savva/11385738)

There is a different dynamic in the UK where there is bi-partisan (left and right) support for action on climate change.

I would be pessimistic about change if it was dependent on that relatively small but controlling coalition (small c again) losing its grip on power here. They may prevail for some time yet.

However, I'm more optimistic about the shift that is quietly going on globally with financial divestment in the fossil fuel industry. For example, BlackRock, the largest asset manager worldwide (worth $10trillion), which has been recalcitrant up until now on climate change action, announced last week that it will be progressively divesting from coal companies and companies that generate at least 25% of their profits from burning thermal coal.

BlackRock, world's largest investment manager, pulls out of thermal coal | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/blackrock-worlds-largest-investment-manager-pulls-out-of-thermal-coal-62121/)

The Norwegian sovereign wealth fund, the largest sovereign fund in the world valued at over US$1.1trillion, commenced its divestment in coal, oil and gas last year. Small steps, but a trend that appears to be gaining momentum over which our local cabal will thankfully have no influence.

I don't wish to change anyone's beliefs, but if you share my views about the need to take action to avoid the tipping point beyond which no human effort can reverse the runaway effects of climate change, then make your views known to your superannuation fund. Their investment decisions on your behalf will give you the greatest leverage in bringing about change. With $3 trillion in superannuation we wealthy Australians can make a difference globally well beyond our population size.

Apologies to anyone who got this far for my long post.

Having got that off my chest it's time to watch the men's singles tennis final on the box...:U

[Beardy]

Blackrock doesn’t sound like it is completely onboard

Blackrock And Greta Thunberg Team Up, Well Sort Of (https://www.forbes.com/sites/hershshefrin/2020/02/02/blackrock-and-greta-thunberg-team-up-well-sort-of/#c2bc13a554ca)

[rwbuild]

Blackrock is only following the money and not the mantra, they can see that there is more to be made from environmental thinking and the emergence of new energy technologies, there is no altruistic motivation involved only monetary profit.

[FenceFurniture]

Blackrock is only following the money.No doubt about that at all.
Do I care?
Nope - it's a result.

Al Capone got locked up for tax evasion, not murder.
Did the Fibbies care?
Nope - they got a result.
Jail is gaol - maybe just in a different wing (with the same privileges that corruption can buy).

Your comment raises a very important point Ray - the Boardrooms of the world have already decided that fossil fuels are out and renewables are either in, or at least ok at arms length. Fine by me if they do it for non-altruistic reasons - I couldn't give a fig if they just want to make some honest/clean money for a change. After all, that is the first legally binding duty of any board - to make a profit for the shareholders.

[Bushmiller]

Neil

Thanks for reminding us of Nikki Savva's interview. Worth listening to again or for the first time so here it is again from a former Liberal party advisor. Interesting.

How brutal politics and righteous prayers toppled a Prime Minister - Conversations - ABC Radio (https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/niki-savva/11385738)

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

What a shame if we closed all the coal plants.

Wind, solar, hydro, thermal, wave, parabolic solar salt collectors, ethanol, compressed air, CO2 concentrators....

Solar, solar, solar, wind, wind, wind.

HUGE battery reservoirs. Huge desal plants.

I can hear it now... b.b.b.uuutttt Australia doesn't have enough space for solar! Or enough sun! We can't POSSIBLY put 1000 floating wind pontoons off the coast of Sydney! Just.... BECAUSE!!!!!

Wouldn't it be just terrible. Just terrible.


edit: this is interesting. Shows how far behind per capita we are compared to the ROW: Wind power by country - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_by_country)

[q9]

there is no altruistic motivation involved only monetary profit.

That's true, and it tells an important story. Large scale funding of coal projects is done because the alternatives are becoming more competitive and will get even better as more money is invested.

[NeilS]

Blackrock doesn’t sound like it is completely on board

Blackrock And Greta Thunberg Team Up, Well Sort Of (https://www.forbes.com/sites/hershshefrin/2020/02/02/blackrock-and-greta-thunberg-team-up-well-sort-of/#c2bc13a554ca)

Yes, Beardy, they have come to this position very reluctantly. The US$90 billion loss in their fossil fuel portfolio last year has helped to budge them. Without this shift they would be holding increasingly stranded assets. The smart money abandoned fossil fuel (and in particular coal) assets some time ago.

But, as FenceFurniture notes, whatever the reason, "it's a result".

If anyone is interested in the complex nature of the disjunction between attitudes on climate change action and voting patterns here in Australia I can highly recommend the following two pieces from Rebecca Huntley, one of our leading researchers on social trends. I thinks she has considerable insights into why Australians who when surveyed are widely supportive of action on climate change but are not voting that way, and why some strategies are counterproductive.

Here is a brief article in which she introduces her findings.... you may identify which group you sit in on her six segment spectrum.

Climate change splits the public into six groups. Understanding them is key to future action - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-29/climate-change-global-warming-six-groups-rebecca-huntley/11893384)

And, for a more detailed and in depth analysis, listen to the following podcast from her (45mins)....

Why are we so divided on climate change? - Big Ideas - ABC Radio National (https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/why-are-we-so-dvided-on-climate-change/11898456)

My personal experience of her 'Dismissive' group rings true. As expressed before, my view is that I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince them of anything... they won't/can't change. The real concern with them is that, despite being a small minority, they currently have disproportionate power and influence here in Australia. I agree with Huntley, "we need to drive the Dismissive group out of positions of power in our government [and] stop the flow of their donations into our political parties...", while at the same time focussing on the other groups that are more open to change and avoid "the language of crisis and emergency [that] can actually turn off those who are Disengaged and Cautious". They are the voter blocs that are needed to neutralise the disproportionately influential Dismissives.

[FenceFurniture]

January average temp here was 27.0° - third hottest on record. That makes the last three Januaries the three hottest on record.

If Saturday and Sunday had been part of January it would have been yet another record (the ave would have been around 29.5°, which is more than last Jan).

Sunday 2nd Feb was 38.8°, which is a new record for February. For some reason there is no information for Saturday but it was
a) forecast to be 3° hotter than Sunday
b) definitely was about 3° hotter than Sunday in the lived experience
c) in Blackheath (10kms) it was 2.8° hotter than Saturday

So that makes Saturday:
The hottest day ever (not just February) in Katoomba at ~41.6°
The first ever day over 40°
(I have some doubts about those temps being over 40)

However, as it stands, Sunday is the hottest Feb day, due to no info for Sat, and today - two days later - I have jacket on for the forecast high of 18°.



NASA, that well-known pack of untrustworthy charlatans that faked a moon landing and are now faking CC, have just announced that 2019 was the second warmest on record, after 2016, and the last 5 years have all been the warmest of the last 140 years.

Full story:
NASA, NOAA Analyses Reveal 2019 Second Warmest Year on Record – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet
(https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2945/nasa-noaa-analyses-reveal-2019-second-warmest-year-on-record/)

[FenceFurniture]

NeilS is right in that it is impossible to change the minds of people who just refuse to believe that CC has been exacerbated by man - we've seen that within this thread (and apparently Senator Jim Molan on Q&A last night - I'm yet to see it). I agree that it is a waste of time and effort
BUT
the deniers are slowing down the best efforts of the best science to be able to do something about this catastrophe within the miserable amount of time left. Out of their fear of losing money they are going to cost themselves more money.

It's a disgrace.

[FenceFurniture]

I seem to recall somebody saying that sea levels are not rising - just look at the records for Fort Denison. Well apparently that is not the case around the North American continent - perhaps like everything else, NA is different?. Sea levels are not just rising, but accelerating (remembering those three new islands discovered in the Arctic Ocean some months ago).

Sea level rise accelerating along US coastline, scientists warn | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/03/sea-level-rise-accelerating-us-coastline-scientists-warn)

A search of "are world sea levels rising" points to plenty of articles.

[Bushmiller]

the deniers are slowing down the best efforts of the best science to be able to do something about this catastrophe within the miserable amount of time left.

It is absurd that the increasingly small amount of CC deniers can still exert a disproportionate amount of influence over the debate. They are quite comfortable accepting the 3% of scientists that "do not believe" in climate change instead of the 97% who do believe. It comes down to fear (fear that they will lose out) and money. In fact to my mind the two are inextricably linked. So why do they actually get as much traction as they do?

Basically they have no scruples and are very comfortable lying. I suspect most of us were brought up believing the majority of what we were told and it takes quite a large step to divorce ourselves from that mindset. For example: a certain QLD Premier's catch phrase was " It'll be right. Don't you worry your head about that." It has taken the internet and the vast array of information available to everybody that has taught us to question. However, the internet is itself the biggest source of mis-information and human nature is such that it believes what it wants to believe. I frequently draw automotive analogies and my analogy here is that if you revel in the raw power of a V8 car you probably do not want to relinquish that for a Prius. However, when a Tesla blows your muscle car into the weeds over the standing quarter you sit up straighter (or be extremely P...e Off).

Without completely going along with Al Gore, his "inconvenient truth" was right on the money and I often wonder how things would have gone if little Georgie hadn't pulled a swiftie. Maybe Al would have been different if he had been the incumbent.

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

It is absurd that the increasingly small amount of CC deniers can still exert a disproportionate amount of influence over the debate.I'll assume you mean that the number of deniers is reducing :D Thank gawd fer that, but I do wish that rate of decrease would increase.

Still haven't watched Q&A but I saw a snippet of Jim Molan in the news (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-04/jim-molan-under-fire-for-climate-change-admission-on-q&a/11925750). How on earth did such a moron get to be a General? Certainly I understand how he could get to be a Senator, but a Major General? I've never heard of such head in the sand mentality from a member of the pragmatic Army.

As a former Major General of the Army he proudly said (re CC denial) "I'm not relying on evidence."

WHAT? He also came out with the usual lie of "I'm happy to be convinced one way or another". What a load of bollocks.

[crowie]

I'd still like to see the actually temperatures and weather patterns before the recordings started??????

Sorry folks, but when the "Media" and "Educators" put out figures that suit their purposes of making money or pushing specific agenda to justify there own ends;

I'm can't say I trust them!

[poundy]

I'd still like to see the actually temperatures and weather patterns before the recordings started??????
OK, so fundamentally, you are saying that because dinosaurs couldn't record the temperatures, that we now don't know enough?

[FenceFurniture]

I'd still like to see the actually temperatures and weather patterns before the recordings started??????So what you are asking for is something that you know very well cannot be produced in the format that you require. Apart from this having been previously addressed and debunked, it's a standard reply for people who refuse to be convinced no matter how compelling the data is. They ask that the data be produced in a format that they know can never be done - i.e. from thermometers and other such instruments before such things existed. That's why they ask for that data - it's impossible to produce, so it gives them a convenient cop out.

So instead of saying "I want to see this or that" (because it still won't change your mind) why don't you show some facts - facts - that prove that we are not contributing to the planet getting hotter? That doesn't mean merely showing some other contributing factors (because there are some) - it means proving that we are not one of them.

Ice core samples are just as accurate - as is the CO2 content of the air pockets trapped in them.

The science is settled Peter - it is incontrovertible. It cannot be cogently argued with



Sorry folks...No point in apologising to us - most of us will be dead before the weather becomes intolerable, with half the planet uninhabitable, and the rest of it frighteningly expensive. It's our grandchildren that will certainly be owed an apology in due course. We are leaving them a shocking, disgraceful legacy.



...when the "Media" and "Educators" put out figures that suit their purposes of making money or pushing specific agenda to justify there own ends; I'm can't say I trust them!How can you possibly say that when you put such store in the words of Alan Jones - who is pushing a specific agenda to justify his own end - having an audience!!! Which makes money for him, dammit!!! :((


Can you say what it is that you are afraid of?

Can you say what it is that would convince you to change your mind? (something possible, that is....)

[doug3030]

The science is settled Peter - it is incontrovertible. It cannot be cogently argued with

That's what they said when the science of the day all pointed to the Earth being flat and people were persecuted for arguing that it was round at the time.

Ever since this rock has had a climate that climate has been changing. As it changes life evolves. The day of the dinosaur is gone and for the time being it's our turn. Nothing we can do can change that inevitably the planet will not naturally support human life after some as yet undetermined time. At best we can delay the inevitable.

[FenceFurniture]

Ever since this rock has had a climate that climate has been changing.That's the same tired old argument that doesn't acknowledge our contribution to the rapid acceleration of change.



The day of the dinosaur is gone.....I disagree.

[doug3030]

That's the same tired old argument that doesn't acknowledge our contribution to the rapid acceleration of change.

Have you had the electricity disconnected at your place yet, Brett, or are you still contributing to the problem?

[FenceFurniture]

I'm in the same situation as you are Doug - no choice about whether or not I can have Solar power. If I had a choice I would be on Solar, and with an electric vehicle

It has to be said that that is not much of an argument - too many individuals don't have such control over their lives. That is completely separate to acknowledging that we cannot continue - as a society (not one individual) - to do what we are doing to the atmosphere.

Can you say why you don't accept that we are rapidly escalating CC?

[doug3030]

Can you say why you don't accept that we are rapidly escalating CC?

Can you say where I said that I don't?

[FenceFurniture]

Well, your posts sure seem to indicate that you don't accept our contribution. But rather than estimating, do you accept it?

[Lappa]

How can you possibly say that when you put such store in the words of Alan Jones - who is pushing a specific agenda to justify his own end - having an audience!!! Which makes money for him, dammit!!! :((



you accuse Peter of putting store in the words of Alan Jones, and yet you seem to take great store in everything the ABC states. Just look at the number of times you quote them. Who says they aren’t
pushing a specific agenda to justify their own end?

[doug3030]

Well, your posts sure seem to indicate that you don't accept our contribution. But rather than estimating, do you accept it?

Im keen to find out just what in my posts gave you that idea. Can you find an example of something I have posted, and quote it IN CONTEXT to make your case. Don't just take part of a post and quote it out of context like you did with Senator Molan.

[FenceFurniture]

you accuse Peter of putting store in the words of Alan Jones, and yet you seem to take great store in everything the ABC states. Just look at the number of times you quote them. Who says they aren’t pushing a specific agenda to justify their own end?It is not an accusation - it is an observed fact. When an email is sent to a significant number of people saying that "Alan Jones is singing my song" (re CO2 non-impact) then I think it's pretty safe to say that store is put in Jones' words.

To address the second part of your post: it is not necessarily the ABC making those statements - they are reporting scientists opinions, papers etc. There may have been some ABC staff opinions in that mix, but by and large it is reported from other sources. Furthermore, I have quoted a number of other sources such as The Guardian, NASA, et al. I don't take news and info from one source only. Quite a number of those links have links to other sources, so I'm trying to take information from as a broad a base as I can.

I have to ask why the ABC would push a not-necessarily-true climate agenda, and to justify their own end. They are publicly funded but independent of Govt. What purpose could it possibly serve for them? Furthermore, I suspect that they would take a lot less heat from the current Govt (so since 2013) if they adopted News Ltd's position, so they are not taking an easy road.

[doug3030]

I have to ask why the ABC would push a not-necessarily-true climate agenda, and to justify their own end. They are publicly funded but independent of Govt. What purpose could it possibly serve for them? Furthermore, I suspect that they would take a lot less heat from the current Govt (so since 2013) if they adopted News Ltd's position, so they are not taking an easy road.

Are you the only one in Australia that cannot see that the ABC has a green agenda? I stopped watching Q and A years ago because the audience and panel are stacked green almost every episode. It started out as a good unbiased forum for debate but it quickly degenerated to the ABC's usual bias.

[Lappa]

I never stated that you only quoted the ABC - I just observed that you quote them frequently.
As the the ABC reporting from various sources, it would seem that they choose whom they report. That could be construed as pushing an agenda in my opinion.

[FenceFurniture]

Im keen to find out just what in my posts gave you that idea. Can you find an example of something I have postedIt will take quite some time to trawl back through 260+ posts to find yours, and I don't have that time right now. Perhaps later this evening.

I did not quote Molan out of context - I quoted part of it and provided the link to him saying his words. It was about a minute long IIRC. I just watched it again - 1:25 long, and none of the parts (2) shown are cherry picked or quoted out of context. The moderator asked "What is the evidence that you are relying on?" and Molan replied "I'm not relying on evidence, I am saying etc etc" so I have not quoted him out of context at all.

[FenceFurniture]

I never stated that you only quoted the ABC - I just observed that you quote them frequently.
As the the ABC reporting from various sources, it would seem that they choose whom they report. That could be construed as pushing an agenda in my opinion.And I didn't say that you said I only quote one source - I am just clarifying that I look at a number of sites.

Who do you think we should be reading then, if you think that the ABC could be construed as having an agenda? What are the sources to be trusted?

[doug3030]

I did not quote Molan out of context - I quoted part of it and provided the link to him saying his words. It was about a minute long IIRC. I just watched it again - 1:25 long, and none of the parts (2) shown are cherry picked or quoted out of context. The moderator asked "What is the evidence that you are relying on?" and Molan replied "I'm not relying on evidence, I am saying etc etc" so I have not quoted him out of context at all.

Well the footage in the clip you posted was already edited to only show the parts that fit the agenda before we look any further. Even then Molan was never permitted to finish a single statement without interjection by the stacked audience. From the sentence fragments from that interchange between Hamish and Molan can you conclusively answer "evidence of what" is Molan not relying?

The whole 1.25 minutes of it is "cherry picked" and totally without any definite context.

[Lappa]

. Furthermore, I have quoted a number of other sources such as The Guardian, NASA, et al. I don't take news and info from one source only. .

That quote would suggest otherwise.

[AlexS]

That's what they said when the science of the day all pointed to the Earth being flat and people were persecuted for arguing that it was round at the time.

Ever since this rock has had a climate that climate has been changing. As it changes life evolves. The day of the dinosaur is gone and for the time being it's our turn. Nothing we can do can change that inevitably the planet will not naturally support human life after some as yet undetermined time. At best we can delay the inevitable.

The science of the day never pointed to the earth being flat. It was scientists who showed that it wasn't.

Sure, the earth's climate has always changed, but it has never changed as quickly. There is so much science showing that we are creating the mechanisms that cause this accelerated change, it's out there freely available and has been for so long that it's now time for those who deny anthropogenic climate chagne to prove their assertions, rather than saying "I don't trust scientists/educators/academics/the media.

[FenceFurniture]

That quote would suggest otherwise.I don't understand what you mean. What quote?

[Lappa]

Post #275.
Would you prefer “stated” to “quoted”?

[FenceFurniture]

Post #275.
Would you prefer “stated” to “quoted”?Stated or quoted doesn't matter. Not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but I still don't know what you mean. "Otherwise" to what?

[doug3030]

The science of the day never pointed to the earth being flat. It was scientists who showed that it wasn't.

Well until Pythagorus, Aristarchus and Eratosthenes had their say around 500 - 350 BC all the previous scientists of the day seem to have accepted that the Earth was flat, even if the cats had not pushed everything off the edges.


Sure, the earth's climate has always changed, but it has never changed as quickly. There is so much science showing that we are creating the mechanisms that cause this accelerated change, it's out there freely available and has been for so long that it's now time for those who deny anthropogenic climate chagne to prove their assertions, rather than saying "I don't trust scientists/educators/academics/the media.

Did I say anything to indicate otherwise? Mind you there are differing opinions on how fast the climate changed in the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event 65.5 million years ago or even the Permian-Triassic extinction event 250 million years ago. Many scientists believe that the Cretaceous-Tertiary event may have taken place by very rapid cooling over days or weeks rather than years but that goes hand in hand with the idea of it all being caused by a very extreme and rapid catastrophic event.

[FenceFurniture]

I never stated that you only quoted the ABC - I just observed that you quote them frequently.I had a look through all the links that I have posted in this thread, and there have been 26 in total (and I'm assuming that by quoting you mean the links, because I may quote part of what is in the link, but almost never quote without a link).

Of the 26 links there are
Guardian
6
ABC
8
Wiki
3
NASA
3
Google search
3
BOM
1
The Conversation
1
BBC
1

Which puts the ABC links at 31%. I don't see that as being disproportionate, and only 2 more than the Guardian. :shrug:

[FenceFurniture]

Im keen to find out just what in my posts gave you that idea. Can you find an example of something I have posted, and quote it IN CONTEXT to make your case. Don't just take part of a post and quote it out of context like you did with Senator Molan.Now I should have said "some" of your posts sure seem to indicate that you don't accept that we are rapidly escalating CC. I got that distinct impression from these two posts:

Putting my own personal opinions aside to look at this from a purely logical point of view, there are really two ways to look at this:

1. Newscorp is telling the truth, or
2. Newscorp is running an misinformation campaign.

If Newscorp IS running a misinformation campaign then why? What is the motivation and who stands to profit from it? Why would they be running a misinformation campaign if they or someone associated with them has nothing to gain by it?This post reads as though Newscorp couldn't possibly be running a misinformation campaign. You have to ask why Murdoch would run a misinformation campaign? Really? Surely it's bleeding obvious - feed the paranoia and people will read that news which is all pay-walled. As well as that he desperately doesn't want a Labor Govt because he believes (possibly correctly) that they will make changes to media ownership laws that will restrict him.




That's what they said when the science of the day all pointed to the Earth being flat and people were persecuted for arguing that it was round at the time.

Ever since this rock has had a climate that climate has been changing. As it changes life evolves. The day of the dinosaur is gone and for the time being it's our turn. Nothing we can do can change that inevitably the planet will not naturally support human life after some as yet undetermined time. At best we can delay the inevitable.This to me was the strongest indicator of all - it's the classic denier's argument - CC has always been happening, and always will (which are both true, btw) but it does not say anything about whether or not we have contributed to it.

[FenceFurniture]

So Doug, you can settle your position once and for all, rather than saying you haven't said this or that. Do you accept the CC science that we have rapidly escalated the situation, or not?

[doug3030]

Now I should have said "some" of your posts sure seem to indicate that you don't accept that we are rapidly escalating CC. I got that distinct impression from these two posts:
This post reads as though Newscorp couldn't possibly be running a misinformation campaign. You have to ask why Murdoch would run a misinformation campaign? Really? Surely it's bleeding obvious - feed the paranoia and people will read that news which is all pay-walled. As well as that he desperately doesn't want a Labor Govt because he believes (possibly correctly) that they will make changes to media ownership laws that will restrict him.

So I didn't actually SAY it, you just extrapolated what you wanted from it?


This to me was the strongest indicator of all - it's the classic denier's argument - CC has always been happening, and always will (which are both true, btw) but it does not say anything about whether or not we have contributed to it.

So I made a true statement - by your admission, but because I did not actually say whether we have contributed to it or not (which was not critical to the point I was making) you automatically jumped to a conclusion that suits your agenda.

Why don't you just accuse me of stealing your childhood too? :roll:

[FenceFurniture]

You are just being cranky and argumentative Doug - maybe just for the sake of it, I don't know, but I'm going to disengage from that. I never said that you did SAY anything, but that there was an indication - it's up to you whether or not you clarify your position on whether you accept the science or not.

As for your "stealing childhood" comment: that is completely unnecessary, unhelpful, and somewhat melodramatic.

If you need to have a last word then go for it - I'm not a last word person, and I am now disengaged from pointless pedantic argument for the sake of it.

[DavidG]

Ok...... Shed time for a while........

DavidG Moderator......

[doug3030]

As for your "stealing childhood" comment: that is completely unnecessary, unhelpful, and somewhat melodramatic.

But it was ok for you to lay that crap on me, misrepresenting my intentions and I was just supposed to take it?

[doug3030]

Ok...... Shed time for a while........

DavidG Moderator......

OOPS - I just saw this on the next page of the thread after I made the reply above :rolleyes:

[Lappa]

Stated or quoted doesn't matter. Not trying to be deliberately obtuse here, but I still don't know what you mean. "Otherwise" to what?

You said:

“ And I didn’t say that you said I only quote one source.”

Yet you said -

“Furthermore, I have quoted a number of other sources such as The Guardian, NASA, et al. I don't take news and info from one source only.”

[DavidG]

Quiet time.............

[Toymaker Len]

So...you go to the doctor and after a few tests the doc says "you've got idiopathicthrombocytopenicpurpura. Its a rare disease and it will kill you most unpleasantly if we don't treat it. The only thing to do is to take a course of cortisone and that might stop it. You say "Hang on I don't want to take cortisone or any steroid drugs I am going to get a second opinion. So off you go to another doc, more examination, more tests..."Yep, you have idiopathicthrombo etc. and you will have to take cortisone! "No thanks, you say, I am going to get another opinion...Doc number three says the same thing, as does Doc number four...At what stage do you decide to go to the witchdoctor club and get a script for activated mud to rub on your temples while humming a lullaby? That is how climate change deniers are thinking. You don't need to be a doctor to listen to a doctor. You don't need to become a climate scientist to get what is happening. You just need to understand that science is a tool which allows us to understand reality with a degree of accuracy that has never before been available to the human race and with this tool we have built global civilization. You deny science as the world community has been doing for the last thirty years or so and the whole thing will fall apart, as it appears to be doing right now. The consequences of adding gigatonnes of carbon to the atmosphere are well understood and if we do nothing the resultant climate chaos will be very bad indeed. That is all there is to it.

[FenceFurniture]

You said: “ And I didn’t say that you said I only quote one source.”
Yet you said - “Furthermore, I have quoted a number of other sources such as The Guardian, NASA, et al. I don't take news and info from one source only.”I'm going to have to give up trying to figure out what the problem is there. I do not see any contradiction - just a statement that I don't take news from only one source. I didn't mention my New York Times subscription, which is mainly for USA political news during the current turmoil, but they do also cover CC.



As the the ABC reporting from various sources, it would seem that they choose whom they report. That could be construed as pushing an agenda in my opinion.
Who do you think we should be reading then, if you think that the ABC could be construed as having an agenda? What are the sources to be trusted?You haven't responded to that. Who can we trust, in your opinion?

[FenceFurniture]

Here's a very detailed breakdown of what the population thinks about it all. With a sample size of 54,000 it's about 50x more reliable than political opinion polls (which sample 1000 people at most).

Apologies for it being not only FROM the ABC, but BY the ABC (but the opinions are those of the population - it's just the cunning way the ABC manipulated them into answering the questions the way the ABC wanted them answered). Pardon my sarcasm, but under the circumstances :roll::doh:
What Australians really think about climate action - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-05/australia-attitudes-climate-change-action-morrison-government/11878510)

[FenceFurniture]

Interesting facts on "Rising Sea Levels"

468244As a Dehydrated Hydrographer, I'll leave it to Alex to cast an expert opinion on that ahem, half-page "paper". In the interim I think I'd be more likely to trust someone with a nasa.com email address rather than 4/6 people with the same surname and a Bigpond email address.

You say you are wary of people with an agenda to push to justify their own end, so we'll have to see if the Fitzhenry clan have one.

[FenceFurniture]

BUT it's an ABC News thing......You mean the pdf you posted? Firstly, you need to provide a link if that's the case (in the interest of full disclosure and context), and secondly...I have never said that I place unfailing trust in the ABC (if that is what you are driving at). As I said yesterday, most of the time the ABC is reporting other scientists etc so it's not whether or not the ABC is to be believed, but rathermore the scientist or whomever they are reporting on.

[Glider]

Interesting facts on "Rising Sea Levels"

468244

Thanks Peter. I'm tend to be pretty sceptical about this type of thing, especially if it's an individual not backed by a major institution. Scientific rigour is everything in my book and anybody who fudges figures should be ostracised.

I looked up the monthly BOM records for Fort Denison. Firstly that bloke is quite wrong. The 1914 average was not 1.111, only May 1914 was. They started recording Fort Denison data in May and took 8 monthly readings that year resulting in an average of 0.925. He claims 2019 at 1.05 but its actually 1.006. I imagine sea levels at any given period are a function of temperature, humidity, el nino, la nina etc. and the data is statistically very noisy.

I was disappointed to hear Jim Molan, speak about "scientific opinion" on Q&A. It's not opinion, it's fact. I'm still waiting for some credible scientific evidence from the deniers.

mick

[doug3030]

I looked up the monthly BOM records for Fort Denison. Firstly that bloke is quite wrong. The 1914 average was not 1.111, only May 1914 was. They started recording Fort Denison data in May and took 8 monthly readings that year resulting in an average of 0.925. He claims 2019 at 1.05 but its actually 1.006. I imagine sea levels at any given period are a function of temperature, humidity, el nino, la nina etc. and the data is statistically very noisy.


It definitely looks "noisy" when plotted on a graph. Here is all available records from Fort Dennison graphed. There is a visible rise over the 100+ years.

Monthly sea levels for Fort Denison (Sydney) - 1914 to 2019 (http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLI.shtml)

[woodPixel]

I was disappointed to hear Jim Molan, speak about "scientific opinion" on Q&A. It's not opinion, it's fact. I'm still waiting for some credible scientific evidence from the deniers.

This. Glider is right.

Science isn't an opinion.

It is the seeking of facts.

I fail to understand how CCD's can accept all other areas of our life that involve science as good/acceptable/right, yet be so sceptical on this single area of study? Medicine (more than fine! Its keeping half of you alive and sane), Biology (food preservation), Genetics (food! Disease prevention!), Physics (your microwaves, digital watches and the damned computers you are typing on)...

Worse, CCDs aren't being asked what they THINK. They are being TOLD a fact.

Its data. Hard, calculated, verifiable data.

What I don't understand, truly... really truly, is why CCD's are so violently opposed. It won't affect them, really. It wont generally cost them a job. It wont make their lives WORSE. I simply don't get it.

If the rest of us a wrong, so what? What harm have we done by... planing more trees, increasing solar, wind and other energy sources, reduced pollution from coal and petrol, being more economical with our resources... WHAT FRICKIN HARM IS THERE?

Oh, and there is this: What Australians really think about climate action - ABC News
(https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-05/australia-attitudes-climate-change-action-morrison-government/11878510)

edit 1: There is one reason for CCD's to deny this so utterly... They are terrified. Utterly existentially terrified, filled with dread that "we" might be right.

Their world views, centres of understanding, religion, moralities, assets, social circles and ability to cope are fundamentally challenged.

It isn't CC that they are denying - they are denying their ability to cope. To understand. To conceive of something different... or worse, make them redundant.

This isn't about the planet, or humanity, or society - its about themselves.


edit 2: Here is a Wikipedia article that discusses denial and what it means: Climate change denial - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial)



(https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-05/australia-attitudes-climate-change-action-morrison-government/11878510)

[Glider]

Quite right, woodpixel!!

I'm going back to the shed...

mick :)

[doug3030]

As I have said before, the climate has been changing ever since the planet had one. Nobody seems to be denying this. Of course human activity has had an impact on this particularly over the industrialized time. We are a very large part of the makeup of the planet and our influence is obvious everywhere.

What I do not get in this whole discussion in this thread is why it is so important to a few members here that all and sundry are of the same opinion as they are on the subject. The whole thing has become more heated and pointless than a religious war.

I have been treated as a pariah after being accused on no evidence of being a climate change denier for saying the climate change has been going on forever but neglecting to also say in the same paragraph that man is complicit in its acceleration. I also did not say that Canberra is the capital city of Australia so I guess that means I don't believe that either?

I really think it's time some people had a good look at how they are responding to others' opinions and not get all caught up in the hype surrounding what is of course a very important issue.

If someone is not as passionate about the issue as you are, or for that matter even if they have a different point of view (and yes you can have a different point of view without being in denial, their opinions are no less valuable than yours. Some are showing exactly the sort of intolerance as they are claiming the CCD;s are giving them. If the entire matter was as cit and dried as some are making out then the solution would be obvious and would have been put into place already. This has not happened so obviously there is room for debate over different ideas.