electrical help

[Harry II]

I have know idea how to do this as I've no experience with anything electrical but what I want to do is set a light in a clear resin shape. These shapes would be joined together by the wire used to charge the lights inside them in a vertically suspended grid pattern.

I'm thinking I've lost everyone now. But I'll carry on.

I'm hoping that the lights won't get too hot and either set the resin on fire or melt it, that the current can be minimal so as not to hurt or kill anyone curious enough to touch it and that the lights would never fail. I need the lights to be smaller tham 5mm and not Chistmas lights.

Can anyone help with suppliers of minature lights (LED?) maybe model Train builders?

This could be the least replied to thread in WW Forum history so I'm not expecting alot of reponse but hoping someone out there is there with some idea.

[olddog]

Hi Harry11,Not real sure what you are after,more details please,but I think LEDs are the way to go,you would need a stepdown transformer with a DC output,maybe a look through RS catalog would help........Peter you.www.rs-components.com.au

[stevebaby]

Fibre optic cable? Dick Smiths have them.
What are you actually making?

[Harry II]

Hi Harry11,Not real sure what you are after,more details please,but I think LEDs are the way to go,you would need a stepdown transformer with a DC output,maybe a look through RS catalog would help........Peter you.www.rs-components.com.au

Fibre optic cable? Dick Smiths have them.
What are you actually making?

Thanks for responding, I didn't think I'd get anyone replying, I still may lose you after I explain what I'm wanting to do. I do a bit of artwork (still with me?). Imagine a square fishing net suspended from horizontal wire not quite touching the ground, at each intersection of the cords is a glass heart (still with me?).

Except the cord is copper? wire that carries a small? current to a LED? light embedded in the heart. Each hearts colour would ideally be able to change independently at different intervals and be able to be controlled or programed.

I can't think of any way of being able to embed a light in glass with wires to it for charge so I've ruled that out at the moment. Casting in resin seems possible but haven't worked it out yet, I just need to know wether the lights heat would effect the resin.

"LEDs are the way to go,you would need a stepdown transformer with a DC output,maybe a look through RS catalog would help"

Why do you reckon LEDs are the way to go? What's a "stepdown transformer with a DC output"? I search on Google for miniture lights and the RS site came up, looked at the online catalogue for a while but didn't really know what I was looking at most of the time but noticed they can be as small as 1.8mm diameter x about 5mm I think, that's good. But how do you connect them? Charge them? How long would they last?

Any help would be appreciated.

[doug1]

You could do this with LEDs either 2,3,4,5 mm or surface mount
connect with winding wire ( small enamalled wire, would be invisable)
you would need a small power supply say 5 volt) and some resistors to do this
and be carefull of polarity

see LEDs at
http://www.oatleyelectronics.com/leds.htm

Doug

[graemet]

You could use casting resin, as far as I know, it is an electical insulator. LEDs don't emit significant heat. You would have to count the number of LEDs in series, ( getting the polarity right) and multiply by the current drain of the particular LEDs to get the current output required from the transformer. If you don't understand a word of what I've said, you probably need to ask one of the bright young blokes in Jaycar. No point in asking the Dick Smith crew any more, they're just Woolies counter jumpers who can just work a cash register sometimes. The older Dick Smith and Jaycar cattledogs used to have a data section in the back with the formulae, don't know about the current ones, I'm too lousy to buy one, they used to be GIVEN away with the electronics mags.
Cheers
Graeme

[Harry II]

You could do this with LEDs either 2,3,4,5 mm or surface mount
connect with winding wire ( small enamalled wire, would be invisable)
you would need a small power supply say 5 volt) and some resistors to do this
and be carefull of polarity

see LEDs at
http://www.oatleyelectronics.com/leds.htm

Doug

You could use casting resin, as far as I know, it is an electical insulator. LEDs don't emit significant heat. You would have to count the number of LEDs in series, ( getting the polarity right) and multiply by the current drain of the particular LEDs to get the current output required from the transformer. If you don't understand a word of what I've said, you probably need to ask one of the bright young blokes in Jaycar. No point in asking the Dick Smith crew any more, they're just Woolies counter jumpers who can just work a cash register sometimes. The older Dick Smith and Jaycar cattledogs used to have a data section in the back with the formulae, don't know about the current ones, I'm too lousy to buy one, they used to be GIVEN away with the electronics mags.
Cheers
Graeme

Got to get some sleep before mongrel day at work, too many questions, thanks for the info, I'll be back. Kind regards and good night.

[olddog]

Hi HarryII, From the way you descibed the project,yes use LED,s as said by others no heat to worry about,can be cast in resin with ease,as LED,s draw bugger all current about 20mA,s you could run them from battery power but it may be better to run from mains power again it depends on the time and size of the display,it may be best to use some of the resin that is avalible from some of the Bunning,s stores and others to cover table tops etc it is a pour on and sets cristal clear or maybe buy from a model shop. As for the wiring, LED,s can be run on tiny guage wire that would be nearly invisable as not much current there,you can also get multi coloured leds ie. red green orange etc As for step down tranny it means taking mains power 240/230 VAC down to a usable voltage and amperage for whatever is needed ie plug packs and you can change AC (alternating current ) to DC ( direct curent ) LED,s work on DC and usualy need a resistor in series to limit current draw to about 20mA.cant see many problems with what you want to do,like others said go to Jaycar,Alltronics or Dicksmith and have a talk with them,if I can help just ask........Peter

[pcal]

The advice you have received on led's is 100% correct.

I did something similar (but on a MUCH smaller and simpler scale) in an art project when I was in school, oh decades ago now! I had a couple of LED's, and some electronic switching gear to make them flash, and soldered the components together without a pc board, to make a mini scuplture out of the leads, and set the whole contrivance in a block of resin with a battery lead comming out one end. It made a very interesting paperweight until the battery lead broke off...

..there in lies your biggest challenge. The wiring within the resin will be immobilised by the resin, but the wiring between your resin "hearts" will not. If you intend to leave the sculpture flexible (ie. bending on the wires), then they will fairly quickly work harden at the points where the wire exists the resin, and some will inevitably break. Once that happens, you can't rejoin them without major and ugly surgery to your resin.

An alternative may be to join the hearts together with thin gauge hollow ridgid tube. You could bend the tubes to whatever shape you prefer, and feed the wires through them for mechanical protection.

As for programmable display patterns, this would be relatively simple with a little bit of electronics to multiplex your horizonal and vertical grid lines onto a serial, or even usb communications line, which could be driven by a standard computer. With a bit more fuffing about, you may even be able to use one of the control boards from someone like http://www.futurlec.com/Boards.shtml to drive it without a computer. I suspect you may have to engage the services of someone with a little more of an electronic bent to make it happen, but it is certainly achievable.

Regards,

Glen

[Harry II]

From the way you descibed the project,yes use LED,s as said by others no heat to worry about,can be cast in resin with ease,as LED,s draw bugger all current about 20mA

Beauty LEDs it is! I'm working on the problem of how to cast the LED in the heart and the connection to it after casting, a socket connection would be good but may be hard to get in tiny sizes, the conections are going to have to be simple and they will be very if not all important, actually I'm still working on the heart cast, I have carved and rough sanded about 200 hearts fron Huon only 700 to go, it's really zipping along, not! I hope to make separate works from the casting and the wooden hearts, so one is making the other.

so you could run them from battery power but it may be better to run from mains power again it depends on the time and size of the display

I'm thinking about three metres square at the moment. 900 or so hearts. Suspended by a horizontal wire between to poles but not convinced that's they way it will turn out, suspended or hanging for sure. I'll do a drawing/diagram tomorow and Post it.

As for the wiring, LED,s can be run on tiny guage wire that would be nearly invisable as not much current there,you can also get multi coloured leds ie. red green orange etc

The wire would need to be flexible to some degree and strong to bear weight. I've done a wooden one with 250 hearts with .5mm copper wire, that's what I'm used to but you've got me thinking otherwise with your suggestion "be nearly invisable" but can tiny guage wire be strong? It would be good to be able to colour the LEDs any colour but I reckon I'm barking up the wrong tree there. Is it possible to control the on/off timing of eack individual LED?

As for step down tranny it means taking mains power 240/230 VAC down to a usable voltage and amperage for whatever is needed ie plug packs and you can change AC (alternating current ) to DC ( direct curent ) LED,s work on DC and usualy need a resistor in series to limit current draw to about 20mA.cant see many problems with what you want to do,like others said go to Jaycar,Alltronics or Dicksmith and have a talk with them,if I can help just ask........Peter

Tranny = Transformer yes. (I used to have a model railway)
voltage and aperage = I'm electronically stupid (but I know not to touch wires)
plug pack = what the?
AC DC = Highway To Hell
resistor in a series = blue healers

Thanks heaps for your help Peter and all, kind regards Harry

[Harry II]

..there in lies your biggest challenge. The wiring within the resin will be immobilised by the resin, but the wiring between your resin "hearts" will not. If you intend to leave the sculpture flexible (ie. bending on the wires), then they will fairly quickly work harden at the points where the wire exists the resin, and some will inevitably break. Once that happens, you can't rejoin them without major and ugly surgery to your resin. An alternative may be to join the hearts together with thin gauge hollow ridgid tube. You could bend the tubes to whatever shape you prefer, and feed the wires through them for mechanical protection.

the connections and linkages are becoming more important to me now, it's going to make or break this literally.

As for programmable display patterns, this would be relatively simple with a little bit of electronics to multiplex your horizonal and vertical grid lines onto a serial, or even usb communications line, which could be driven by a standard computer. With a bit more fuffing about, you may even be able to use one of the control boards from someone like http://www.futurlec.com/Boards.shtml to drive it without a computer. I suspect you may have to engage the services of someone with a little more of an electronic bent to make it happen, but it is certainly achievable.

now where talking, I don't know what you talking about but I reckon I'm on the right track, that's gold.
Regards,

Glen[/QUOTE]

Thanks Glen

[pcal]

I'm working on the problem of how to cast the LED in the heart and the connection to it after casting, a socket connection would be good but may be hard to get in tiny sizes, the conections are going to have to be simple and they will be very if not all important

Using a plug and socket arrangement will infinitely improve your reliability (can switch out a faulty one easily), but will also signifcantly increase your cost. A suitable plug and socket could easily cost 10 times as much as the LED it is connected to.

You could even solder the LED directly onto the end of the socket, and set the socket half in / half out of your casting. Then, the whole heart becomes a "plug in" attachment to a completely separate wire net, made with plugs at the intersection points of the horizontal and vertical runs.

actually I'm still working on the heart cast, I have carved and rough sanded about 200 hearts fron Huon only 700 to go, it's really zipping along, not! I hope to make separate works from the casting and the wooden hearts, so one is making the other.

Couldn't you re-use the mold? I don't understand why multiple originals are required...

It would be good to be able to colour the LEDs any colour but I reckon I'm barking up the wrong tree there. Is it possible to control the on/off timing of eack individual LED?

There are quite a range of single colour LEDs available, but to my knowledge only one that can be multi coloured - called a "tri-colour" LED. When you run DC voltage through it in one direction it glows red, if you run the same voltage in reverse it glows green, and if you connect it to AC voltage it glows yellow (actually, alternating between red and green so quickly, that it just looks yellow)

If you use some electronic control, it should be possible to make each individual LED come on or off at will. If you just wire them straight to a power supply (plug pack etc.) then they will just be constantly on, all together.

Regards,

Glen

[Harry II]

A suitable plug and socket could easily cost 10 times as much as the LED it is connected to.

what about the wire, will it be strong enough, I don't what a ridgid look about the thing more like it's moving in the breeze. Could I make my own sockets?

You could even solder the LED directly onto the end of the socket, and set the socket half in / half out of your casting. Then, the whole heart becomes a "plug in" attachment to a completely separate wire net, made with plugs at the intersection points of the horizontal and vertical runs.

oh yeah and have you ever tried to stuff a LED and sockets in mold and cast it in resin before, yeah sounds real bloody easy.

Couldn't you re-use the mould? I don't understand why multiple originals are required...

They all need to be different don't they?

There are quite a range of single colour LEDs available, but to my knowledge only one that can be multi coloured - called a "tri-colour" LED. When you run DC voltage through it in one direction it glows red, if you run the same voltage in reverse it glows green, and if you connect it to AC voltage it glows yellow (actually, alternating between red and green so quickly, that it just looks yellow)

I'd like to run a shadow over it, like a areoplane shadow and you guessed it, I want it Blue.

If you use some electronic control, it should be possible to make each individual LED come on or off at will. If you just wire them straight to a power supply (plug pack etc.) then they will just be constantly on, all together.

or a flock of birds in...no not pink

Kind regards
Harry

[pcal]

what about the wire, will it be strong enough, I don't what a ridgid look about the thing more like it's moving in the breeze.

You would have to work out the total weight of your sculpture before you could determine how strong the wire would need to be.

One possible solution may be to make your "net" out of thin flexible steel cable (which has plenty of strength) and then use a fine electrical wire that can be clipped or taped to the steel cables for connecting to the plugs at each intersection of the net. That way, the electrical connection can be protected from the mechanical forces, and will be much less likely to break.

Could I make my own sockets?

Possible? Yes
Practical? No

Couldn't you re-use the mould? I don't understand why multiple originals are required...

They all need to be different don't they?

Why? If you're making a net with a heart at each junction, and plan to have 900 of them, is anyone really going to notice if number 274 is identical to number 631 and number 896? If you already have 200 models nearly made, pick the 20 best ones, and use them to cast 20 rubber molds, and fill those 20 molds with your resin 45 times each (inserting the socket with LED attached while the resin is still liquid - quite easy really ), giving you 45 resin hearts in each of 20 designs, for your 900 total... or have I missed something somewhere?

I'd like to run a shadow over it, like a areoplane shadow and you guessed it, I want it Blue.
...
or a flock of birds in...no not pink

Red, Green, or White would be a LOT cheaper, as they are are a lot more common. I think I've seen a blue one somewhere, but the thought of buying nearly a thousand of them would give me the shudders...

... if you want aircraft shadows and flocks of birds, then may I suggest that in addition to the electronics technician to interface it to your computer, you will likely need a programmer as well to create the software for such an ambitious objective. As before, it is certainly achievable, but you are adding layers of complexity with each new post!

Regards,

Glen

[Harry II]

Why? If you're making a net with a heart at each junction, and plan to have 900 of them, is anyone really going to notice if number 274 is identical to number 631 and number 896? If you already have 200 models nearly made, pick the 20 best ones, and use them to cast 20 rubber molds, and fill those 20 molds with your resin 45 times each (inserting the socket with LED attached while the resin is still liquid - quite easy really ), giving you 45 resin hearts in each of 20 designs, for your 900 total... or have I missed something somewhere?

Seem verging on the obsessive I no Glen, "is anyone really going to notice", probably not most. I think the work would lose some of its power if the hearts are repetitive but I get your point and mulling it over, the resin one is still evolving, twisting and turning. "inserting the socket with LED attached while the resin is still liquid - quite easy really", ok, I believe you, but how do you connect to the LED?

Red, Green, or White would be a LOT cheaper, as they are are a lot more common. I think I've seen a blue one somewhere, but the thought of buying nearly a thousand of them would give me the shudders...

I thought they where (shuddering) cheap?

... if you want aircraft shadows and flocks of birds, then may I suggest that in addition to the electronics technician to interface it to your computer, you will likely need a programmer as well to create the software for such an ambitious objective. As before, it is certainly achievable, but you are adding layers of complexity with each new post!

your right, the resin one is undergoing a thought process, I'm just so tired from my fullon time job that I haven't settled it down yet, just exploring the possibilities, especially with electrics, It'd be good if you could get tiny LCD screens and control them from a computer, I can see that.

Regards,

Harry