Election

[Rossluck]

There is more to Nelson than most realise. I heard him speak at an industry conference and he did not appear to get a single detail wrong. Given the topics involved he went up in my estimation a few hundred percent. Very impressive performance, without notes, for well over an hour. He didn't only have the facts, he knew how they related to each other.

Another one I have been impressed with is Bill Shorten. I listened to him on the ABC while on a long drive one evening. Sensible fellow, and one sorely needed by the ALP.

I agree. I just watched Nelson on the Seven Thirty Report, and he's no idiot. It's strange that I've never taken much notice of him when watching Question Time.

[mic-d]

There is more to Nelson than most realise. I heard him speak at an industry conference and he did not appear to get a single detail wrong. Given the topics involved he went up in my estimation a few hundred percent. Very impressive performance, without notes, for well over an hour. He didn't only have the facts, he knew how they related to each other.

Another one I have been impressed with is Bill Shorten. I listened to him on the ABC while on a long drive one evening. Sensible fellow, and one sorely needed by the ALP.

that may be, but there was something very, very dodgy about the way he and Johnny completed the defence deal for the Joint strike fighter. I don't know if you saw the story on 4corners, but it was very scary the way things were done. Now we're stuck with the rubbish super hornet as a gap stop til the JSF arrives (late, overpriced and questionable effectiveness) - what a mess.

Cheers
Michael

[rod@plasterbrok]

so at home, lets look at bully employers

Telstra for example,
who despite the overwhelming community dissaisfaction with WPA's are forcing them through before they are overhauled in the interests of fair play

Bob everyone hates bully employers as bully Unions.

I cant stand employers who are not fair to employees.

I have had a few builders who fit in that catagory. I just don't work for them.

[boban]

that may be, but there was something very, very dodgy about the way he and Johnny completed the defence deal for the Joint strike fighter. I don't know if you saw the story on 4corners, but it was very scary the way things were done. Now we're stuck with the rubbish super hornet as a gap stop til the JSF arrives (late, overpriced and questionable effectiveness) - what a mess.

Cheers
Michael

I saw that story and interview with Nelson.

Yep it sounds dodgy but its not always about the product you are buying. We are involved in a relationship with the US. We fully expect them to come to our assistance in the event of a war on our soil.

You can't get this without a relationship. The Hornet and even the JSF may be of questionable value but the relationship with the US is not. We don't know everything nor do we need to.

So as to be clear, I am no fan of the present US foreign policy.

I am a doubter when it comes to Nelson, but tonight was a good start. We'll see what happens. Can you believe his grandfather was a communist.

Looks to me like this man is a pragmatist.

[Groggy]

that may be, but there was something very, very dodgy about the way he and Johnny completed the defence deal for the Joint strike fighter. I don't know if you saw the story on 4corners, but it was very scary the way things were done. Now we're stuck with the rubbish super hornet as a gap stop til the JSF arrives (late, overpriced and questionable effectiveness) - what a mess.

Cheers
Michael

I can only say that Defence is a package. All the discussions I have seen on this topic in the media are ridiculously simplistic. To have this discussion ALL the issues need to be tabled, including logistics support, secrecy agreements, treaties, threat analyses and a bunch of other things. This is all done behind closed doors, and for good reason.

One of the most expensive blunders in decades was the acceptance of a White Paper that said "no foreseeable threat for ten years". Where were the so called experts then, and where are they now? Why have the media not been crying out for an investigation of how we could have got it so fundamentally wrong. This is perhaps the most important question in Australia's Defence and I hope they address it when the next White Paper is drafted.

[mic-d]

Did you see the report Groggy? Some of the senior insiders in the defence force were interviewed and were very suprised to see the super hornet was chosen (since it was not even in the modeling) From memory, ...nope, here's the transcript. very interesting reading.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/conte...7/s2073943.htm

I believe we should stick with the f111 until the jsf arrives.

Cheers
Michael

[Clinton1]

I can only say that Defence is a package. All the discussions I have seen on this topic in the media are ridiculously simplistic. To have this discussion ALL the issues need to be tabled, including logistics support, secrecy agreements, treaties, threat analyses and a bunch of other things. This is all done behind closed doors, and for good reason.

What Groggy said.

The media agency must be well aware of this fact, but went off 1/2 cocked anyway.
I thought it was a very amateur effort... ridiculously amateurish.

Sticking with the F-111 till the JSF comes into service.... hmmm... the best analogy would be the old car story... expensive to keep running, things keep breaking and you get left behind at the lights.

[mic-d]

Sticking with the F-111 till the JSF comes into service.... hmmm... the best analogy would be the old car story... expensive to keep running, things keep breaking and you get left behind at the lights.

bad analogy. paste from transcript "Spares for the F-111 are plentiful and in good condition. In the cool, dry desert air the F-111 parts stored here at Davis-Montham Air base in Arizona don’t deteriorate. Those spare parts in the US make the plane an ongoing bargain."

The F111 is still the fastest aircraft in the world at sea level, perfect for the role of deep penetration strike aircraft, and is probably still in the top ten fastest at altitude.

Cheers
Michael

[Groggy]

Michael, as I said earlier, Defence is a package. There are agreements and deals made that improve our Defence overall, even if ONE system may appear to be sub-optimal.

Interesting discussions to have over a beer but there are too many restrictions to have an informed debate here, much as I'd like to.

[Waldo]

Now we're stuck with the rubbish super hornet as a gap stop til the JSF arrives (late, overpriced and questionable effectiveness) - what a mess.

Cheers
Michael

G'day For all the stuff-up of the buying of our new fighter jets, the Super Hornet is avery impressive bit of machinery. I saw it at the 2001 Air Show, except for the Migs it left everything for dead. What a :whoot: the day was when it took off and being able to do square loops.

(Yes, I saw the 4 Corners story and others before it)

[Waldo]

The F111 is still the fastest aircraft in the world at sea level, perfect for the role of deep penetration strike aircraft, and is probably still in the top ten fastest at altitude.

Cheers
Michael

And it's payload of bombs is too. But I'm arguing with blokes already in the kakhi.

[mic-d]

except for the Migs it left everything for dead.

And guess what the countries north of us are getting?

[Waldo]

Migs?

[Andy Mac]

Hasn't this thread covered some ground! We'll have to wait and see what Kev can do with Unions and other competing pressures, but I have faith in him. There is steel behind that innocuous visage!!

One of the most expensive blunders in decades was the acceptance of a White Paper that said "no foreseeable threat for ten years". Where were the so called experts then, and where are they now? Why have the media not been crying out for an investigation of how we could have got it so fundamentally wrong.

Maybe they were under the impression we wouldn't be under any threat if we stayed at home and minded our own business! As I read it, (yes, simplistically) we have popped our collective heads up to follow GB into his squabble over oil, and now made targets of ourselves.
But I will concede the point that defence is a package, and the choice of aircraft is an unfortunate part of it...this from an old F111 sumpie.

Cheers,

[Waldo]

this from an old F111 sumpie.

Cheers,

So does that make you one of the blokes who used to paint inside of the fuel tanks?



(planes are more interesting than politics )