there is no hope for the young poeple

[nz_carver]

ok i was out at BUNNINGS 2 day and i worked out there all brain dead
i go to get a ne jig saw:U and 1 or 2 other new toys
and this young thing say hi m8 can i help u
i look down to see what i think is a alf thats got a job selling tool
i say no im ok get my jig saw and go to pay
the same alf says what do u use that for??:doh:

i stop and think why me god !!!:;
i say to cut out circular things

the alf looks at me and then say ( why dont u use a circular saw to cut circular things thats why thay call it a circular saw isnt it???):doh::doh::doh:

i stop and smile trying not to take the supur glue in my and and stick the alfs head to the counter and say have a nice day

[SPIRIT]

he was pull yu leg l think:D

[nz_carver]

no its not the 1st time people there have know idear

[joe greiner]

A few hundred years ago, Ponce deLeon searched all over Florida for the Fountain of Youth. We now say we need to find the Fountain of Smart.:wink:

Joe

[hi ho sliver]

LOL ....."they walk among us!" ha ha......on ebay, a guy is selling an item, says, I learned to use it in my back yard.......I asked a question, he comes back, this is new, never been out of the box LOL....must have been tough learning to use it in the box :2tsup:


As for this bunnings clerk......wanna borrow my super glue ROFLMAO:;

[flynnsart]

Of course they dont know anything these days, all you old farts :q dont teach them anything. All they get is smart arsed responses to seemingly stupid questions. How they gonna learn if no one teaches them. Is it their fault the company doesn't train them? He/she was actually interested enough to talk to you, encouragement might have been a better response. :doh:funny, all the same rofl.:2tsup:

Donna

[silentC]

Maybe you should have used your mobile phone to 'text' him instead of talking. You might have been able to understand each other better. He probably would have put 'lol' and then you'd know it was a joke.

What exactly is an 'alf''? Alien Life Form? Maybe you meant 'elf' as in Lord of the Rings?

[hi ho sliver]

Of course they dont know anything these days, all you old farts :q dont teach them anything. All they get is smart arsed responses to seemingly stupid questions. How they gonna learn if no one teaches them. Is it their fault the company doesn't train them? He/she was actually interested enough to talk to you, encouragement might have been a better response. :doh:funny, all the same rofl.:2tsup:

Donna



Duh....isn't that what school is for? :doh:

[wheelinround]

Duh....isn't that what school is for? :doh:


Not any more apparently :roll:

[SPIRIT]

what a pack of A H u all can be:~

get off their backs ,what l know on the matter is we were all not born smart like some of u
how companies use staff they get young kids on holidays from school with some smarts whack them in the deep end if they stay afloat they will make money from them if not they push in the trolleys ,

it's not easy to get a teenager to say anything other than a grunt or a Iduno so how would the poor kid feel first day on the job don't want to go back pushing trolleys the bloke l work with needs a break they haven't replaced him they never do what to do ??

have to walk up and talk to that NZ:cool: and talk to him and hope to pick this up this game quick

I spent 4 years at bunnings and trained a few kid in the toolshop
just remember u lot it takes time to know as much as us

NZ should have taken a few moments and tell him what to use them for and the kid would have learnt something he would happy his game gets better and he doesn't have to go back and push trolleys

so know some fact before you all judge the poor mug:)

[SPIRIT]

Duh....isn't that what school is for? :doh:we worked out that a teacher has 5 min per student per class, lets teach how to sell power tool instead of sport

[silentC]

what a pack of A H u all can be
Hope you're not including me in that 'all'.

"There is no hope for the young people". He got that right.

[Andy Mac]

Maybe you should have used your mobile phone to 'text' him instead of talking.

Touche'

[SPIRIT]

Hope you're not including me in that 'all'. :rolleyes::rolleyes:waiting to see

"There is no hope for the young people". He got that right.so you are saying that there is no hope silent that's it's all just a waste of time .That we are sooooo smart and stuffed the place were we live maybe the young are just waiting to move in and stop the perfect world that we made :?there is a lot of switched on kids out there

[SPIRIT]

Touche'bagging Bunnings worker is a sport on this forum
you work for a crappy wage get treated like crap from management ,but still one of the best jobs I have worked in the people they hirer I like :qplay the ball not the man

[silentC]

so you are saying that there is no hope silent that's it's all just a waste of time .That we are sooooo smart and stuffed the place were we live maybe the young are just waiting to more in and stop the perfect world that we made :?
No I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that it's ironic that a post calling a kid 'brain dead' for not knowing about power tools is so badly written, full of poor spelling and SMS talk.

Hopefully that kid at Bunnings will learn on the job and end up being a bit more knowledgeable. We all have to start somewhere. I wonder what OP is doing about improving his communication skills?

Sheesh, I'm trying to be subtle after that 'epic fail' business.

[tea lady]

Went to the local school concert last night. Some great teenagers played some great music. :cool:

I reacon you shoulda had a joke with the poor kid and actually taught him something. :p His opinion of old farts prolly went the same way as your opinion of teenages.:rolleyes:

[silentC]

When did 24 become 'old fart'? I must be ancient...

[Frank&Earnest]

When did 24 become 'old fart'? I must be ancient...

Well, spare a thought for those of us who actually are, then..:D

Lucky I missed this before, I would have ended up saying something fitting the AH description...:D

Anyway, this has nothing to do with woodcarving, which explains your unusual presence here... :D

Let's move this thread then, so I can start my rant about the competence of the local education system.

[silentC]

I thought it seemed a bit strange in here. I'd better leave because I haven't got an artistic bone in my body...

[SPIRIT]

Hope you're not including me in that 'all'.
There is no hope for the young people
"". He got that right.this quote could have meant something else :?

after your reply no I don't think l will put you (u) in the "all" but lets not judge people on grammar and how they sound but what they do


43 not old :D

[SPIRIT]

I thought it seemed a bit strange in here. I'd better leave because I haven't got an artistic bone in my body...no need to leave stay and make some comments on the work that goes up on the forum , please no great ,cool ,:2tsup:when they are not :;

[SPIRIT]

Well, spare a thought for those of us who actually are, then..:D

Lucky I missed this before, I would have ended up saying something fitting the AH description...:D

Anyway, this has nothing to do with woodcarving, which explains your unusual presence here... :D

Let's move this thread then, so I can start my rant about the competence of the local education system.:toot:rant away

[silentC]

lets not judge people on grammar and how they sound but what they do
Yeah I know. I stir people up about that a bit but I usually only have a shot when they've been hooking into someone else. The way I see it, if you're prepared to have a go at someone, you should be prepared to get as good as you give. I understood his post well enough and these days we're not supposed to criticise people's spelling etc. but we're also not supposed to call people 'brain dead'. Fair's fair I reckon. :)

On the Bunnings thing, I went in looking for rubber grommets one day. I couldn't find them so I asked a young guy that was hanging around near the electrical section. He had never heard of a grommet. I eventually found them, so I grabbed a packet and went looking for him. I found him, showed him the packet and said "these are grommets". Next time someone asks him, he will know.

[tea lady]

When did 24 become 'old fart'? I must be ancient...

Oops. :doh:

Well 24 did seem quite old when I was a teenager.:rolleyes:

[SPIRIT]

Yeah I know. I stir people up about that a bit but I usually only have a shot when they've been hooking into someone else. The way I see it, if you're prepared to have a go at someone, you should be prepared to get as good as you give. I understood his post well enough and these days we're not supposed to criticise people's spelling etc. but we're also not supposed to call people 'brain dead'. Fair's fair I reckon. :)

On the Bunnings thing, I went in looking for rubber grommets one day. I couldn't find them so I asked a young guy that was hanging around near the electrical section. He had never heard of a grommet. I eventually found them, so I grabbed a packet and went looking for him. I found him, showed him the packet and said "these are grommets". Next time someone asks him, he will know.Educating the youth is everybody's job

and fairs fair l guess



l love spell checker my grammer is getting better l hope :B

[Andy Mac]

bagging Bunnings worker is a sport on this forum
you work for a crappy wage get treated like crap from management ,but still one of the best jobs I have worked in the people they hirer I like :qplay the ball not the man

Hi Spirit,
I'm not really having a good go at him... its just I'm old school and can't read SMS speak, especially with no punctuation or capital letters! It honestly takes me longer to decipher it than if it was in the old fashioned longhand!!
Needless to say, after a few abortive attempts at texting on my mobile I have abandoned it as a joke. Despite that apology of sorts, I actually agree with Silent, and think that if our nz_carver and the clueless chap at Bunnies were texting, they would have had a far better chance of communicating successfully!
As for Bunnies employment process, surely it would be in their own interests (call it a funny name like customer service, or public relations) to either have staff with a modicum of knowledge already, or train them up in the basics (Budget Powertools 101), and not rely on frustrated customers trying educate them, as the grommet episode implies.
I certainly agree with the comment that it takes years to have a real handle on the subject, and the wealth of knowledge shown in this forum is testament to that, I just don't agree with them (Bunnies) starting staff from a zero background.

Cheers

[nz_carver]

ALF little person im 6.0 this little thing was 4.9

i mean yes im still young but young people here give me the sh!@s

i mean its not like there job is hard or long i mean dont even think u have to speek english to get a job there or count to 10
and at starting pay of $18.50 phr

just gets me that know one there ever knows anythink about the things thay are selling:no:

[nz_carver]

Hi Spirit,
I'm not really having a good go at him... its just I'm old school and can't read SMS speak, especially with no punctuation or capital letters! It honestly takes me longer to decipher it than if it was in the old fashioned longhand!!
Needless to say, after a few abortive attempts at texting on my mobile I have abandoned it as a joke. Despite that apology of sorts, I actually agree with Silent, and think that if our nz_carver and the clueless chap at Bunnies were texting, they would have had a far better chance of communicating successfully!
As for Bunnies employment process, surely it would be in their own interests (call it a funny name like customer service, or public relations) to either have staff with a modicum of knowledge already, or train them up in the basics (Budget Powertools 101), and not rely on frustrated customers trying educate them, as the grommet episode implies.
I certainly agree with the comment that it takes years to have a real handle on the subject, and the wealth of knowledge shown in this forum is testament to that, I just don't agree with them (Bunnies) starting staff from a zero background.

Cheers

so are u say all use young people use texting to talk to eatch other???
i work in a kitchen and have a thing with people textin it me off!!!!
well thats like saying all fat people dream of a job at KFC !!!!!

im not saying all there people in all there stores are brain dead just gets me coz id think if u a payed to do a job u do it???
or payed to know what you are selling u read up on it???

[m2c1Iw]

ALF little person im 6.0 this little thing was 4.9

i mean yes im still young but young people here give me the sh!@s

i mean its not like there job is hard or long i mean dont even think u have to speek english to get a job there or count to 10
and at starting pay of $18.50 phr

just gets me that know one there ever knows anythink about the things thay are selling:no:

:D Oh please you are having us on.......right.......I hope:doh:

Sorry all I could not help but chime in, I'll go now

[nz_carver]

no im not:?

[Wood Borer]

Everyone has to start somewhere however I feel it is up to the employer to train their staff - not left to the customers.

Obviously it is not the kid's fault his employer doesn't train him but that doesn't mean customers should not be concerned. What if I wanted advice on a product that I had no knowledge and incorrect advice wasted my money or compromised my health?:o

It is too easy to knock any large organisation especially one who targets the budget tools and caters for a wide range of customers and employs a large number of staff.

I have visited probably more Bunnings stores than most people in every state and territory around Australia as part of my previous job. I found the majority of their staff pleasant to deal with even under sometimes difficult conditions.

I haven't been in any of their stores for a couple of years because they are a fair way from here and don't really sell much that I am likely to buy.

[Frank&Earnest]

Could all dislexics here please identify themselves, so we can safely separate them from the DHs? (or is this considered AH ?) :rolleyes: :D

[nz_carver]

cant spell to save my self:(
good thing i can carve:2tsup:

[Frank&Earnest]

... I'll take that as a yes, then :)

[SPIRIT]

look anybody that has read my post know I have a learning difficulty :-but there is a great button at the top of the screen that says ABC check I click on that and it makes my post able to be read

to nz carver if you use this all the time your spelling does get better ,


as for the bunnings thing there is a lot of good people that work there that know their stuff as for training they do on line training but your under the pump and who has the time :?

they squeeze every cent from the workers

[black1]

i always say that the tradesman is in the store when im in there and leaves when i do:D (that means me being the tradesman):rolleyes::cool::2tsup::oo:

[hi ho sliver]

I can't and won't name anyone here, because I don't know anyone here....but from my experience......most "learning deficiencies" can be boiled down to a simple statement........"An overly abundant amount of lead in the butt!" lol....if anyone wants to learn to spell and not look like a dunce 'DO IT'! It's too easy to sit back and make everyone else try to figure out what the H you are talking about........anyone can learn if the really WANT to and have the gumption! again, only in my opinion, wouldn't want to start a fire here . ;)

[joe greiner]

Please don't take this as adding fuel to the fire. My earlier smart-???? remark was intended only for levity.

I've found a few clerks eager for new knowledge, and have exercised a method similar to silentC's about grommets. One very dedicated clerk at Home Depot (similar to Bunnings) griped that management seems concerned only about profits, apparently unaware that profits derive from customer satisfaction. Andy Mac hit the nail on the head about proper training being management's responsibility.

Joe

[wheelinround]

I can't and won't name anyone here, because I don't know anyone here....but from my experience......most "learning deficiencies" can be boiled down to a simple statement........"An overly abundant amount of lead in the butt!" lol....if anyone wants to learn to spell and not look like a dunce 'DO IT'! It's too easy to sit back and make everyone else try to figure out what the H you are talking about........anyone can learn if the really WANT to and have the gumption! again, only in my opinion, wouldn't want to start a fire here . ;)


:pointlaugh::roflmao: This is why Teachers spend an extra few years at SCHOOL/Uni. Then spend additional time being taught how to teach on all those "Pupil Free Days"/ "Development Days" they get every year paid for by Taxpayers.

Not to mention the educational additional studies that they get paid for as part of their job claim tax benefits for. They do this to further their education and Pay Packets. So at what point do they feel they have knowledge enough to educate the youth of today for tomorrow's life when all they are being taught is yesterdays mistakes.:rolleyes:

NZcarver you started this thread in scorn of a practice in business and a political system which these old pharts voted for, that allows the educational standards to have dropped in our schools.

Yet government pays these companies a sum of $$$ to train personel which never seems to happen the cash goes into pockets of CEO's and execs for a job well done.:doh::~

Its been well and truly :jacked: into a nit picking denigration by Spelling Natzi's who have nothing better to do with their time. Good job none of them ever tried to cypher or learn Hansard reporting or Shorthand:roll:.

Pity the old as they grow old for they forget the days of their youth and rebellion, the fights they had to create the world we have today where the young can stand up and be heard, speak out and be free.

Like a 24 year odl noticing that something is very wrong like you have done here and spoken out.


:2tsup::2tsup:

[silentC]

ALF little person im 6.0 this little thing was 4.9
OK, two problems here. ALF is an acronym for Alien Life Form. There was a TV show back before you were born called ALF and it was about this hairy muppet-like guy who came from outer space. There are also various other organisations that use A.L.F. according to Wikipedia. It does not mean short person.

You might have meant 'elf', which is a creature from mythology. They also feature in the Lord of the Rings. They generally aren't short either. In the original myth, they are actually quite tall and slim.

So neither of these words really fit your description of a 'short person'. You could have used midget or dwarf - although apparently there's nothing that says mythological dwarves were short either (I didn't know that until I read about it in Wikipedia). Apparently people who suffer from dwarfism prefer the term 'little person' so you could have used that. If the person was really 4'9" then they would be classified as a dwarf (or little person) but I suspect that was an exaggeration.

See how important using the right words are to getting your point across?

However, you're obviously not a professional writer or a teacher, so it's not really expected that you know any of this stuff. I'm aware that schools tend to focus on 'life skills' now instead of literacy, although that might be changing. I can see the point of view that a person working in Bunnings should know what a jigsaw is - at least if they are working in the power tool section but I don't suppose it's in Bunnings' business plan to send every new kid on a comprehensive "know that tool" course. They would do basic induction training and then learn on the job I guess. It's not really the ALF's fault.

[barerlz]

hi you know not all young people are dum ????'s last year i just turned 14 and i went to the working with wood show and built a red cedar hall table for my mum i have learnt alot off my dad and thats only a small amout, this year at the working with wood show i went and bought 800 worth of burls and redgum coffee tables for me not my dad me and thats because i love timber what you can make out off it? i am curretly spending another $3100 on myself to buy more timber and mae more furniture.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

You might have meant 'elf', which is a creature from mythology. They also feature in the Lord of the Rings. They generally aren't short either. In the original myth, they are actually quite tall and slim.

So neither of these words really fit your description of a 'short person'.

Mebbe 'e meant 'alf an elf, eh? :p

[Grumpy John]

Duh....isn't that what school is for? :doh:

I've come into this thread pretty late in the piece and this may have already been covered, but are you saying the the minute you leave school you STOP learning. You obviously learnt everything you'll ever need to know in 12 years.

[Jim Carroll]

THERE IS NO HOPE FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE


I bet that stament is muttered every day by lots of older people.

But those young people will eventually run the country, not in the same way as what you are doing but very similar.

They will learn from their mistakes maybe not the first time but hopefully by the second time.

They will also learn from you every day they may not notice it at first but the next time somebody comes with a similar question they will know the answer, unknowingly they have learned this from you their life teacher.

Teach as you have been taught by freeling giving advice when asked dont be a stick in the mud or spelling nazi life is too short. If you dont know the answer admit it and find someone who does. You get more respect this way.

[silentC]

I don't know, this spelling Nazi business is verging on political correctness. I don't see anything wrong with expecting better standards to come out of schools than what we see here. I know a lot of it is jargon, fair enough so long as they grow out of it. I don't pick people up on their spelling or grammar (except when I'm being a smart asre) and I'm far from perfect myself but it has to be said that posts like the first one in this thread indicate that things are not improving. My Dad went to a country public school in the late 40's and early 50's. He left at 15 to go to trade school. His spelling is not perfect but he can string a sentence together.

Nobody blames the kids (well I don't). The problem lies within the education system. This cringe away from pointing out people's spelling mistakes etc is not helping anybody.

[BobL]

I get to work with some fabulous very smart young people. One guy has just invented a way of viewing radio space around a pulsar with 100 times greater resolution than has been possible before. To do this he had to organize 3 radio telescopes across the country to collect data at the same time, invent new computational algorithms to analyse the data, and come up with a physically meaningful explanation for what he is looking at. Tell me again how dumb these young people are.

[Andy Mac]

I get to work with some fabulous very smart young people. One guy has just invented a way of viewing radio space around a pulsar with 100 times greater resolution than has been possible before. To do this he had to organize 3 radio telescopes across the country to collect data at the same time, invent new computational algorithms to analyse the data, and come up with a physically meaningful explanation for what he is looking at. Tell me again how dumb these young people are.

So we shouldn't expect to see him at the tool counter in Bunnies?:wink:

[Stuart]

IMHO, I don't care if someone is paid $5 or $50 / hr, if you work in a tool shop, why wouldn't you do some more research about what you are selling? Read a box, play with the display items, familiarise yourself with your job, whether the employer provides opportunities or formal training or not, read some books - even Bunnings has one that answers some basic questions.

And for the young among us who can't read or write traditional text anymore:

¡MH0, ¡ þ0n'7 ç@r€ ¡ƒ §0m€0n€ ¡§ p@¡þ $5 0r $50 / hr, ¡ƒ ¥0µ w0rk ¡n @ 700£ §h0p, wh¥ w0µ£þn'7 ¥0µ þ0 §0m€ m0r€ r€§€@rçh @b0µ7 wh@7 ¥0µ @r€ §€££¡n9? R€@þ @ b0x, p£@¥ w¡7h 7h€ þ¡§p£@¥ ¡7€m§, ƒ@m¡£¡@r¡§€ ¥0µr§€£ƒ w¡7h ¥0µr j0b, wh€7h€r 7h€ €mp£0¥€r pr0v¡þ€§ 0pp0r7µn¡7¡€§ 0r ƒ0rm@£ 7r@¡n¡n9 0r n07, r€@þ §0m€ b00k§ - €v€n Bµnn¡n9§ h@§ 0n€ 7h@7 @n§w€r§ §0m€ b@§¡ç qµ€§7¡0n§.

And if you can only read phone speak:

IMHO, I dnt (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=38922) care f (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=45577) sum1 (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=42909) S (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=92554) paid $5 or $50 / hr, f (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=45577) u (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=68377) wrk (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=93957) ina (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=69697) 2l (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=75000) shop, Y? (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=61039) wudnt (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=61461) u (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=68377) do sum (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=64339) mor (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=35813) rsrch (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=24896) bout (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=43659) wotU (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=65921) r (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=72094) selln (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=6630)? Read a bx (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=88199), play W (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=46306) d (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=14308) display items, familiarise yrslf (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=74534) w/yr (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=25388) job, whether d (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=14308) employer provides opertntys (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=79191) or 4mal (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=59911) trainin (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=18017) or nt (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=50691), read sum (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=64339) bux (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=62557) - evn (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=61343) Bunnings hs (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=94546) 1 (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=93850) dat (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=56090) ansas (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=72637) sum (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=64339) basic qz (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?WrdID=74550).

Simple translations for those who don't like many words:

Get off your bum and do your job.

[Wood Borer]

My interpretation of ALF was quite different to SilentC's.

I read it as a truncation of "half" which lead to me thinking it was a short person.

Remember there was some TV show where the bloke in the pub said he would have alf also? Referring to half a pint I always thought.

BTW Don't start picking on short people either you mongrels:((:((:((

[silentC]

Yeah that was Love Thy Neighbour. I doubt you will ever see that on TV again. That guy, his trick was to always jump into a shout with "I'll 'ave 'arf" because he figured that he wouldn't have to return the shout since he was only having half what everyone else was having.

[pugwash]

My attitude is that if someone doesn't show enough respect to at least try to write in intelligent English (and is too lazy to use a spell checker) then I'm not going to bother replying.

So that's what I'm not doing. ):

[Frank&Earnest]

Gee, where do I start? Quite a few issues here...

Let's start with BobL, so I can't be accused to pick on somebody weaker.:wink:

Of course there are many intelligent, able students. These will always succeed, notwithstanding incompetent teachers/lecturers. To keep claiming their successes as successes of the school/university is IMHO indicative of the inability of the education system to criticise and therefore improve itself. Lip service to the concept that the real measure is the achievement of potential is always denied by avoiding like hell any attempt to measure it objectively.

Hi-ho Silver: yes, funny, and broadly true, posterior lead poisoning is the most likely cause, but it is unfair to tar everybody with the same brush. Genuine dislexics do exist, you know?

Pugwash: with your principles, you are not going to be able to talk to too many people... :D There is a difference between intelligent and intelligible writing, though, and spelling per se is not that essential to comprehension, hence the excuse not to teach it (lest, God forbid, be tainted as spelling nazis!)

Silent C: having had to learn it the hard way and still making mistakes, I am a spelling nazi myself, but that does not mean that I bother correcting posters on a bulletin board... pick on somebody your size, will you? :D

Jim Carroll : yes, something similar was written in Egypt some 4000 years ago... I like your optimism though: you still hope they learn by the second time!

Wheelinround: can't really disagree with you, except pointing out that you seem to agree a bit too much with Hi ho Silver (see above)... but you are wrong on one count: I am a self confessed spelling nazi and I have done cyphers, read Hansard and learnt shorthand. :q

barerlz: if you wanted to make the point that even if you can not spell you are not dumb you should have said so. Otherwise some of the people mentioned above might say that you are doing woodwork because you are too dumb to learn to spell. :)

My apologies to those who posted on previous pages... I am sure I could find something to pick on you also...:D

Now, a true story at the other end of the spectrum.
After a lifetime of problems with my teeth a few years ago I finally decided to have them all ripped off and a full implant made. The upper denture is held up by clips catching a gold bar fixed to my head with titanium screws.
The denture kept breaking at the fulcrum point created by the bar. I kept telling the dentist that unless the metal structure spanned across the fulcrum the problem would not be solved. He kept telling me that he did not think it could be done. In the end, two years later, he admitted his incompetence and referred me to a specialist.
It took only a quick look for the specialist to say exactly what I said.
Mental note: a BDS from an Australian university is not sufficient to learn Archimede's principle. It is learnt at PhD level.

The young specialist made a good job of it and fitted the new denture. All was fine but it felt a bit wobbly. So the young specialist called in the senior partner saying that he should know, he had 30 years experience. The senior specialist had a look and found that the titanium screws had not been re-tightened enough.
Mental note: to learn to tighten screws in Australia you need a PhD AND 30 years experience. :D

Now we can move this thread to the jokes section...:U

[silentC]

So your gums were flapping because you had a screw loose? I might suggest that to some people I know :D

[m2c1Iw]

Now, a true story at the other hand of the spectrum.
:U

Frank,
Can we move on to the application and accurate use of metaphors now? :D

[Frank&Earnest]

Frank,
Can we move on to the application and accurate use of metaphors now? :D

No mixed metaphor, only an example of my already admitted spelling mistakes, in this instance caused by the loose screws due to being an old f-rt. Perfectly on topic. :D

[nz_carver]

NO im just saying if u are payed to do a job do it
but no young people over here dont know a hard days work if it bit them in the ass!!!!

it gets me as a ex chef from nz i know what bad $$ is i was on less than $14.00 phr
i did my time did my apprenticeship when to hell and back it made me i better person for it all
becose of my helth i have just had to stop and look at life and steep out of a kitchen:(

now i here young people at franklinds doing nite fill at $19.50 phr
and thay dont even do there job i mean if there not talking texting or being a idiot
there going on about how there job is so hard and the $ is so bad!!!:;

You open boxs and get payed well to do it its not that hard:doh:

or u get the young kids who drop out of school and get center link
(thats the one that gets me!!! i mean we all pay or tax for them to sit on there ass all day and play xbox!!!!:no:

[Wood Borer]

NO im just saying if u are payed to do a job do it
but no young people over here dont know a hard days work if it bit them in the ass!!!!

At first I thought that your severe writing disability was your only disability so I overlooked it and respected and considered your thoughts however you have proved me quite wrong with the above statement.

Play games elsewhere and please seek help for all of your problems before people start taking you seriously and erroneously conclude that Kiwis and young Aussies are lazy uneducated incompetent idiots.

[pugwash]

Pugwash: with your principles, you are not going to be able to talk to too many people... :D There is a difference between intelligent and intelligible writing, though, and spelling per se is not that essential to comprehension, hence the excuse not to teach it (lest, God forbid, be tainted as spelling nazis!)

F&A.
I actually wanted to write intelligible rather than intelligent, but I couldn't spell it!!:U

[nz_carver]

im not a kiwi!!!!!:~

[nz_carver]

imho, i don't care if someone is paid $5 or $50 / hr, if you work in a tool shop, why wouldn't you do some more research about what you are selling? Read a box, play with the display items, familiarise yourself with your job, whether the employer provides opportunities or formal training or not, read some books - even bunnings has one that answers some basic questions.

And for the young among us who can't read or write traditional text anymore:

¡mh0, ¡ þ0n'7 ç@r€ ¡ƒ §0m€0n€ ¡§ p@¡þ $5 0r $50 / hr, ¡ƒ ¥0µ w0rk ¡n @ 700£ §h0p, wh¥ w0µ£þn'7 ¥0µ þ0 §0m€ m0r€ r€§€@rçh @b0µ7 wh@7 ¥0µ @r€ §€££¡n9? R€@þ @ b0x, p£@¥ w¡7h 7h€ þ¡§p£@¥ ¡7€m§, ƒ@m¡£¡@r¡§€ ¥0µr§€£ƒ w¡7h ¥0µr j0b, wh€7h€r 7h€ €mp£0¥€r pr0v¡þ€§ 0pp0r7µn¡7¡€§ 0r ƒ0rm@£ 7r@¡n¡n9 0r n07, r€@þ §0m€ b00k§ - €v€n bµnn¡n9§ h@§ 0n€ 7h@7 @n§w€r§ §0m€ b@§¡ç qµ€§7¡0n§.

And if you can only read phone speak:

Imho, i dnt (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=38922) care f (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=45577) sum1 (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=42909) s (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=92554) paid $5 or $50 / hr, f (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=45577) u (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=68377) wrk (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=93957) ina (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=69697) 2l (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=75000) shop, y? (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=61039) wudnt (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=61461) u (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=68377) do sum (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=64339) mor (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=35813) rsrch (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=24896) bout (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=43659) wotu (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=65921) r (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=72094) selln (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=6630)? Read a bx (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=88199), play w (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=46306) d (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=14308) display items, familiarise yrslf (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=74534) w/yr (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=25388) job, whether d (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=14308) employer provides opertntys (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=79191) or 4mal (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=59911) trainin (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=18017) or nt (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=50691), read sum (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=64339) bux (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=62557) - evn (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=61343) bunnings hs (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=94546) 1 (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=93850) dat (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=56090) ansas (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=72637) sum (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=64339) basic qz (http://www.lingo2word.com/lingodetail.php?wrdid=74550).

Simple translations for those who don't like many words:

Get off your bum and do your job.
thank you!!!!!!!!

[BobL]

Gee, where do I start? Quite a few issues here...

Let's start with BobL, so I can't be accused to pick on somebody weaker.:wink:

Of course there are many intelligent, able students. These will always succeed, notwithstanding incompetent teachers/lecturers. To keep claiming their successes as successes of the school/university is IMHO indicative of the inability of the education system to criticise and therefore improve itself. Lip service to the concept that the real measure is the achievement of potential is always denied by avoiding like hell any attempt to measure it objectively.

Where in my post did I claim that I or the ed system had anything to do with this young fella's success? I posted this story because I'm getting a bit tired of the constant dumping on young people and I don't think we celebrate the high achieving young ones enough. They are the ones who will have to clean up our mess, and hopefully there will be some who will wipe our behinds in a few year time.

[Frank&Earnest]

Sorry about the understandable implication, Bob. You have reciprocated, though: where in my post did I accuse you specifically of making such claims?:)

More importantly: should I infer from this that you agree with my point?

[BobL]

Sorry about the understandable implication, Bob. You have reciprocated, though: where in my post did I accuse you specifically of making such claims?:)

Touche! :D

I have to keep reminding myself "I am not the system"! :D


More importantly: should I infer from this that you agree with my point?

in short yes. The system oaften tends to hang its hat on students who would have succeeded anyway - same goes in sport, finance and medicine. I have also seen many cases of the reverse, where individual teachers have nurtured students with poor or limited backgrounds, financial and family problems etc and have enabled them to succeed - the teachers get little or no credit. In reverse, I see smart self motivated students achieve modest outcomes in spite of what is done to them!

More credit should be given for overall improvements made, not just on final outcomes achieved.

[SPIRIT]

OK, two problems here. ALF is an acronym for Alien Life Form. There was a TV show back before you were born called ALF and it was about this hairy muppet-like guy who came from outer space. There are also various other organisations that use A.L.F. according to Wikipedia. It does not mean short person.

You might have meant 'elf', which is a creature from mythology. They also feature in the Lord of the Rings. They generally aren't short either. In the original myth, they are actually quite tall and slim.

So neither of these words really fit your description of a 'short person'. You could have used midget or dwarf - although apparently there's nothing that says mythological dwarves were short either (I didn't know that until I read about it in Wikipedia). Apparently people who suffer from dwarfism prefer the term 'little person' so you could have used that. If the person was really 4'9" then they would be classified as a dwarf (or little person) but I suspect that was an exaggeration.

See how important using the right words are to getting your point across?

However, you're obviously not a professional writer or a teacher, so it's not really expected that you know any of this stuff. I'm aware that schools tend to focus on 'life skills' now instead of literacy, although that might be changing. I can see the point of view that a person working in Bunnings should know what a jigsaw is - at least if they are working in the power tool section but I don't suppose it's in Bunnings' business plan to send every new kid on a comprehensive "know that tool" course. They would do basic induction training and then learn on the job I guess. It's not really the ALF's fault.you really are stuck on the ALF thing silent is there something that is eating at you in this department :Dwe use a :D not lol :D I will finish reading the rest of the post now

[SPIRIT]

well that's how long it took me to read all them posts:-
frank gee you use big words:D

I left school at 15 where I didn't learn much at all ,couldn't sit still none of the things they told me stuck in my head .
Was it the schools fault, no not fully most of the blame was mine if I applied myself things would have been different .
So where did the little education get me

23 years in the same job as a motor mechanic
4 years bunnings (tool shop )
1 year designing and teaching sustainable systems (privet school)
2 years teaching disengaged teenager that can't cope with the class room year 7 to 9 at two different schools (ART, WOOD WORK, LIFE SKILLS, BIULDING)

I see all types go though the program and there are some you just can't help ,what I have seen of the teachers they are a caring and educated lot

so why are so many slipping though the system :?

can't see any more money coming into schools soon from the government
I know some of you will scoff at this but teachers are working hard for their money
tech school would be a good thing but there is nobody to teach in them

so what is the answer it is easy to knock things hard to fix things
so come on all you smart people what do we do and make it so nobody get left behind:rolleyes:

[Ron Dunn]

what do we do and make it so nobody get left behind:rolleyes:

There's your problem. People SHOULD be left behind.

I can't run. Never could. Would you put me in an athletic competition? Not in a million years.

Different people have different skills. Not everyone is suited to academic achievement, and keeping them in school beyond their capability lowers the standard of education achievable by the rest. Dumbing down is a reality these days.

[nz_carver]

spirit i take my hat off to u:2tsup:

there are so meny young kids sliping away and it is sad:((

[SPIRIT]

There's your problem. People SHOULD be left behind.

I can't run. Never could. Would you put me in an athletic competition? Not in a million years.

Different people have different skills. Not everyone is suited to academic achievement, and keeping them in school beyond their capability lowers the standard of education achievable by the rest. Dumbing down is a reality these days.disagree
between the ages of 12 and 17 kids go though one of the biggest changes in their life ,schools supply a great safety net for kids that could be at risk we find if we can keep them in school until their past the worst of it, their opportunities greatly improve.
every person has the right to be the they can

[Ron Dunn]

Spirit, are students more literate today than 50 years ago? No.

Are they more numerate? No.

Do they have a better knowledge of history or geography? No.

Can they all stand around in a circle, give each other hugs, and sing Kumbaya? Yes. Well, probably not sing.

Children aged between 12 and 17 went through exactly the same changes in their lives 50 years ago ... 100 years ago ... and they survived just fine. What started to screw them up is when we went soft on kicking their backsides occasionally, and moving them out of school when they reached their limit.

We took all the risk out of their lives, wrapped them in cotton wool, and told them how special and talented they were ... and now we wonder why they are completely self-centred, completely unaware of risk and responsibility, and academically incompetent.

[SPIRIT]

spirit, are students more literate today than 50 years ago? No.

Are they more numerate? No.

Do they have a better knowledge of history or geography? No.
yes they do are you joking 100 years ago you were lucky if you went to school
now its a must 100 years ago the system pumped out how many with this knowledge
what percent % ???
now the % its a good slice

can they all stand around in a circle, give each other hugs, and sing kumbaya? Yes. Well, probably not sing.

somebody needs a hug :d,so they teach kids now to get in touch with their feelings
:rolleyes:
children aged between 12 and 17 went through exactly the same changes in their lives 50 years ago ... 100 years ago ... And they survived just fine. What started to screw them up is when we went soft on kicking their backsides occasionally, and moving them out of school when they reached their limit.
we have problem at moment with teenage suicide, anger and all other thing
the pace we ran at as 35 to 55 yo is insane
they just can't stand it, at with pace things change so quick and the weaker one are cracking
one of the other suicide bracket is what 35 to 55

we took all the risk out of their lives, wrapped them in cotton wool, and told them how special and talented they were ... And now we wonder why they are completely self-centred, completely unaware of risk and responsibility,sad it is ,the court did this to the education system ,schools are a prime target to getting sued academically incompetent.bs

[nz_carver]

im not felling any love here do u all need a hug:2tsup:

[Frank&Earnest]

Does your signature mean that you have been rejected, NZ? :D

Ron Dunn, I thoroughly appreciate the thoughtfulness of your avatar description. :D

Would youse take a bit of a dig instead of a hug? It's not love but laugh is the best medicine... if you do not feel you are laughed at, of course. :D

[nz_carver]

lol no juat didnt think it was goignt to be all cut and paste

look im not saying all young people are brain dead and i our working life we all have to start somewere
but why take a job in a tool shop if u dont know anythink about tools???

look im a ex chef so i get to be around people all day and u soon pick up on the
ones that are there to do there job and the ones who are there just for the$$

i know food and wine and people so i dont think you will ever find me fixing your car
why coz its somethink i know nothing about!!
so why go and take a job coz u can??
let the ones out there who know there stuff take the job the ones who do know what there talking about!!!!



ok i was at carba tec here in sydney yesterday and it was a gr8 felling to be in a shop with people that know there stuff there was this old girl there i think she had to be in her 50s but she knew more then most of the boys out there didnt catch her name but its my new place to spend $$$ and i will be back:2tsup:

[bark-hut]

This has been quite entertaining I must say, good points all round, pity I don't understand all of it. :C
Must be something to do with age.
Spirit, I would love to 'teach' but don't have the paper that says I'm able, do you think there's a chance for an oldie to be involved
(I was told, when quite young, "we all die at about age 18, just takes another 60 years to get buried") :U:U

[SPIRIT]

This has been quite entertaining I must say, good points all round, pity I don't understand all of it. :C
Must be something to do with age.
Spirit, I would love to 'teach' but don't have the paper that says I'm able, do you think there's a chance for an oldie to be involved
(I was told, when quite young, "we all die at about age 18, just takes another 60 years to get buried") :U:UI don't have the paper never finish school there are other ways
if you would really like to try and get into teaching l could tell you the way l got in
sadly have no contacts in nsw, hang on do you live anywhere near parks

we are mainly based in Vic and have a few bases in F N QSL

[AlexS]

Spirit, are students more literate today than 50 years ago? No.

Are they more numerate? No.

Do they have a better knowledge of history or geography? No.

Can they all stand around in a circle, give each other hugs, and sing Kumbaya? Yes. Well, probably not sing.

Children aged between 12 and 17 went through exactly the same changes in their lives 50 years ago ... 100 years ago ... and they survived just fine. What started to screw them up is when we went soft on kicking their backsides occasionally, and moving them out of school when they reached their limit.

We took all the risk out of their lives, wrapped them in cotton wool, and told them how special and talented they were ... and now we wonder why they are completely self-centred, completely unaware of risk and responsibility, and academically incompetent.
As one who was a student 50 years ago and had a good education for the time, who went to uni as a mature age student in my late 40s and who now teaches TAFE students, I have to disagree on just about every point. They are certainly more literate than we were. Not only do they read at least as widely, but generally their writing is of a much higher standard.
As a student doing a maths degree, who had used a reasonable level of maths (not just arithmetic) at work, I often found myself getting help from students less than half my age, and sometimes from my children.
When I did history at school, it ended with 19th century Europe. We didn't do geography, and science consisted of physics and chemistry - no geology, biology or computing. I've really had to bring myself up to speed just so that I can talk to my students without sounding ignorant.
Oh, and if I remember correctly, Kumbayah was early '60s.

[Big Shed]

Funny, but I vividly remember in my teens my old man made a lot of the same points as have been made here.

What's that mean? It means that we're old, and they're not:doh:

When I look at my grand children, I don't think there is much wrong with the current generation.

Sure, a lot of them can't spell if their lives depended on it. But then, they don't have to, they have SMS, we didn't. They just communicate in a different way.

They are absolutely hopeless at mental arithmetic, but then they have calculators and Excel, we didn't.

Give them 2 kids and a mortgage and they will all grow up and be miserable like the rest of us.:;

[Ron Dunn]

Alex, how do you explain the fact that every university decries the numeracy and literacy skills of current entrants? Why are some universities discussing remedial summer classes for new enrolments?

Have you seen the way these kids write? No longer is a pen (or pencil) a tool of finesse - but a blunt instrument bludgeoned around the page. They're taught to hold a pen like a cockatoo clutches a perch!

I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago, and visited my wife's niece's school. I was blown away by the relative beauty of the script I saw being taught and used - it reminded me of the way my Great Aunts used to write.

I wish I had a way to run a test, but these days I'd probably be arrested as a paedophile as an adult male going near a primary school :( I'd love to take a set of class readers from the 1950s and take them to the equivalent grades to see how well they manage to read. I'd also love the chance to try some basic arithmetic from the same period, WITHOUT giving the little darlings access to their calculators, PDAs or handphones.

Our standards slip away every year, because we just don't care about measurement any more. Measurement allows a whiff of competition between students, and that MUST be bad ... they all have to achieve the same mediocrity, right?

[Wood Borer]

I take very little notice of what those running universities say these days. They are mostly economic puppets. They are a bit like used car salesmen in that they will say anything to increase their income stooping low enough to pretend they need even further fee paying courses to bring kids up to speed.

I think we have had a few pathetic conservative right wing governments who have turned universites from places of learning to places run by boring straight laced conservative accountants making universites business units with budgets and instant outcomes to satisfy loud mothed business people.

I too teach younger people and sure, some areas seem to have lower standards but many other areas are far superior to my boring British colonial education set by boring conservative politicians.

For example, I recall when our kids were at school. Instead of being good little pupils memorising crap history dates they had to address issues such as "Why was Captain Cook sent to discover Australia?" which is far more relevant than memorising the name of his ship, the date he was born, the date he so called discovered Australia and the date he died. This was at Primary School level.

The horrible rotten education system that I survived placed more emphasis on the colour and the size of your margins rather than what was written to the right of them.

I have not read any novels since being tortured in HSC (1973) by the crap that was forced upon us in English.

Fortunately my areas of expertise were in maths and science so I survived.

I was strapped, punched, kicked, slapped and expelled by so called pillars of the community teachers (conservative right wing god fearing fools) up until I was 17. This happened at Victorian Government schools.

Yes, I do have tertiary qualifications but no thanks to the rotten Primary and Secondary education system that I endured.

No, I didn't sit back and complain - I served on School Councils for 15 years with a few of those years as President of a School Council. I served on these councils in order to attempt to improve on the pathetic system that I went through. I know of many others who did it for the same reason.

I think the current system although not perfect, is miles ahead of that in the past but that wouldn't be too difficult. I agree there is always room for improvement.

Let's not talk about the good old days because they weren't very good at all in my opinion.

[Frank&Earnest]

Very interesting. The posts by Alex, Ron, BigShed and WoodBorer are widely different in approach and could be vehemently opposed by each other, but all make good points. Let's take all those points as true, with some latitude of interpretation. What then? All the following is only MHO, of course.

- Kids are not more stupid than before. Even assuming that the human brain itself has not evolved much from the times of Plato, better nutrition and enormous expansion of access to information would point to improvement. Too bad for those who live too close to a lead smelter, progress has its victims, has it not?

- What is important to learn has changed dramatically and the exponential increase of knowledge requires our relatively unchanged brain to deal with it much more selectively than in the relatively simpler earlier times of learning some standard crap by rote. Don't they say that medical knowledge is now doubling every five years? Teaching to think is the key, and at least now this is recognised, although getting from the principle to the practice is still difficult.

One problem is that Australia is caught in a time warp. Up to 30-40 years ago it was not that important, life in the colonies was simpler. Until 1948 If you wanted a PhD you went back to Mother England to get it. Now that the world has became smaller, distance is not a "tyranny" any more, but it is not a protection either: being 10 year behind the leading edge is now an obvious problem. The fact that some bright people are at the leading edge in some particular field does not disprove the general statement.

The bottom line is in the old saying that those who know how, do it; whose who know a little, write about it; those who know **** all, teach it. The little truth behind the joke is valid everywhere, but it is magnified here because it is enshrined in the education system. Those too educationally challenged to get the marks for enrolling in a course leading to a profession can scrape enough marks to enrol in a teaching degree. Furthermore, while in continental Europe for the past 50 years people teaching academic subjects to children older than 12 had to be "lecturers" with a masters degree in the subject they teach, here they are "teachers" who are supposed to know how to "teach" anything from finger painting to calculus, with the obvious results. In this respect the excuse of isolation and distance is still invoked. The obvious answer is to use electronic media for the lectures, retrain some teachers to guide the process to maximise the effectiveness for each student and sack the others, but the profession closes ranks to protect its incompetence, wouldn't they all?

Over.

[Wood Borer]

Some interesting comments there F&E.

I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach.

The education system like many government and private organisations rewards those who are skilled at their job by removing them from that job in the case of promotions. For example, principals are paid more than class room teachers. Principals are heavily into administration, politics and managing. If you are a good classroom teacher but would like more $'s then in most cases you have to leave the classroom and work in an office!

Those who are good in industry are strongly dissuaded from becoming teachers. For example, you immediately drop pay and sign an agreement to accept any posting within the state on completion of your teaching qualification. That's what I was told by the Victorian Education Dept in the 80's when I made enquiries.

I don't agree with electronic lectures on the basis there is little to no feedback between the person delivering the lecture and the student. It becomes obvious whether or not your message is hitting the spot when you are face to face enabling you to change tactics and or pace in either a positive or negative direction.

I don't agree on the idea of necessarily having extremely highly qualified teachers. Good teachers are good teachers and poor ones are poor no matter what their qualifications. It's about communication I feel.

There are some quite complex concepts that I have learned brilliantly from people with very few qualifications and I have sat in lectures and not taken in anything from people with alphabets behind their names and of course the opposite. In other words I feel there are natural good teachers.

Poor outcomes with many students can be traced back to their upbringing rather than their standard of education.

[SPIRIT]

Very interesting. The posts by Alex, Ron, BigShed and WoodBorer are widely different in approach and could be vehemently opposed by each other, but all make good points. Let's take all those points as true, with some latitude of interpretation. What then? All the following is only MHO, of course.

- Kids are not more stupid than before. Even assuming that the human brain itself has not evolved much from the times of Plato, better nutrition and enormous expansion of access to information would point to improvement. Too bad for those who live too close to a lead smelter, progress has its victims, has it not?

- What is important to learn has changed dramatically and the exponential increase of knowledge requires our relatively unchanged brain to deal with it much more selectively than in the relatively simpler earlier times of learning some standard crap by rote. Don't they say that medical knowledge is now doubling every five years? Teaching to think is the key, and at least now this is recognised, although getting from the principle to the practice is still difficult.

One problem is that Australia is caught in a time warp. Up to 30-40 years ago it was not that important, life in the colonies was simpler. Until 1948 If you wanted a PhD you went back to Mother England to get it. Now that the world has became smaller, distance is not a "tyranny" any more, but it is not a protection either: being 10 year behind the leading edge is now an obvious problem. The fact that some bright people are at the leading edge in some particular field does not disprove the general statement.

The bottom line is in the old saying that those who know how, do it; whose who know a little, write about it; those who know **** all, teach it. The little truth behind the joke is valid everywhere, but it is magnified here because it is enshrined in the education system. Those too educationally challenged to get the marks for enrolling in a course leading to a profession can scrape enough marks to enrol in a teaching degree. Furthermore, while in continental Europe for the past 50 years people teaching academic subjects to children older than 12 had to be "lecturers" with a masters degree in the subject they teach, here they are "teachers" who are supposed to know how to "teach" anything from finger painting to calculus, with the obvious results. In this respect the excuse of isolation and distance is still invoked. The obvious answer is to use electronic media for the lectures, retrain some teachers to guide the process to maximise the effectiveness for each student and sack the others, but the profession closes ranks to protect its incompetence, wouldn't they all?

Over.you are a hard man frank
Teenagers don't just need to learn at school ,schools play main function in this going stage
Humans a pack animal YES or NO schools have to manage this in a positive way ,they may not listen but they are always watching .Roll modeling that's what teacher should be, teenagers should be exposed to as many good roll models as possible, peers and adults .

[SPIRIT]

Some interesting comments there F&E.

I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach.

The education system like many government and private organisations rewards those who are skilled at their job by removing them from that job in the case of promotions. For example, principals are paid more than class room teachers. Principals are heavily into administration, politics and managing. If you are a good classroom teacher but would like more $'s then in most cases you have to leave the classroom and work in an office!

Those who are good in industry are strongly dissuaded from becoming teachers. For example, you immediately drop pay and sign an agreement to accept any posting within the state on completion of your teaching qualification. That's what I was told by the Victorian Education Dept in the 80's when I made enquiries.

I don't agree with electronic lectures on the basis there is little to no feedback between the person delivering the lecture and the student. It becomes obvious whether or not your message is hitting the spot when you are face to face enabling you to change tactics and or pace in either a positive or negative direction.

I don't agree on the idea of necessarily having extremely highly qualified teachers. Good teachers are good teachers and poor ones are poor no matter what their qualifications. It's about communication I feel.

There are some quite complex concepts that I have learned brilliantly from people with very few qualifications and I have sat in lectures and not taken in anything from people with alphabets behind their names and of course the opposite. In other words I feel there are natural good teachers.

Poor outcomes with many students can be traced back to their upbringing rather than their standard of education.can l ask a question
how can the schools or will the school do something different stop the flow of students slipping though the system and getting lost

[AlexS]

Alex, how do you explain the fact that every university decries the numeracy and literacy skills of current entrants? Why are some universities discussing remedial summer classes for new enrolments?Universities always have and always will complain about the literacy & numeracy skills of their current entrants. Today, they have some justification. A higher proportion of students than ever before are going to Uni, including, probably, a number who shouldn't be going to uni. Also, today, we have more students than ever for whom English is a 2nd language. You'd have to expect their English literacy to be a little below par.

Have you seen the way these kids write? No longer is a pen (or pencil) a tool of finesse - but a blunt instrument bludgeoned around the page. They're taught to hold a pen like a cockatoo clutches a perch! And when it comes to a slide rule, why goodness gracious. They don't even know how it works! On the other hand, they can usually use a calculator or keyboard much more efficiently than us old pharts.

I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago, and visited my wife's niece's school. I was blown away by the relative beauty of the script I saw being taught and used - it reminded me of the way my Great Aunts used to write.Very nice, but is it relevant to Australian children?

... I'd also love the chance to try some basic arithmetic from the same period, WITHOUT giving the little darlings access to their calculators, PDAs or handphones. Why? These are the tools they have. When I trained, we wasted hours doing calcs with 7 & 13 figure logs, and a surveyor from the Roman or Egyption empires probably would have said we had it easy because we didn't have to do the calcs longhand.
Who designed these high-tech calculators, phones & software? In most cases, it's people younger than you & me, and you don't design these things without a good knowledge of maths & science.


WB & Spirit have addressed some of the other issues more eloquently than I could.

[Frank&Earnest]

Thanks Wood Borer. I see that we agree on two integral weaknesses of the system, the application of Peter's principle (everybody is promoted to his/her level of incompetence) and that "Those who are good in industry are strongly dissuaded from becoming teachers". For these very reasons, however, I am sure you would accept me saying, with all respect, that "I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach." is a non sequitur. It might, but not necessarily does, negate it.

You say that you do not agree with my proposed solution, but I actually agree with what you give as reasons for not agreeing: only, it appears that you do not see how these obstacles can be overcome and cling to them to resist change, which is of course consistent with the need for self preservation of the profession.

"I don't agree with electronic lectures on the basis there is little to no feedback between the person delivering the lecture and the student. It becomes obvious whether or not your message is hitting the spot when you are face to face enabling you to change tactics and or pace in either a positive or negative direction.
...
I don't agree on the idea of necessarily having extremely highly qualified teachers. Good teachers are good teachers and poor ones are poor no matter what their qualifications. It's about communication I feel."

This is what I meant by saying that some of the teachers should be retrained to "guide the process to maximise the effectiveness for each student", while electronic lectures (replacing the masters degrees of 50 years ago) guarantee the technical competence that many teachers do not possess: there is still room for teaching skills.

One obvious example is the teaching of languages. A teacher with pronunciation weaknesses is bound to pass on these weaknesses to his/her students. But if the students hear from a tape the "correct" (whatever that is agreed to be) pronunciation, the teacher can concentrate on managing the learning process.

[Wood Borer]

F&E,

I think all our views have some degree of similarity, we have identified similar negative issues and we have all presented solutions.

Why have we come up with different solutions? I think we might be influenced by our individual life experiences and learning styles.

For example, my preferred learning style is using basic concepts rather than parrot fashion learning and so I teach using that style.

For example, it is merely coincidental that I happen to know the formula for the volume of a sphere. It is merely coincidental that I know the value of phi. Using basic concepts, I can quickly derive both along with the formula for the volume of many other solids and their variations using basic principles.

I don't need to remember the formulae for the gain of common transistor circuits or op amp circuits, I don't need to remember the formulae for motion. Using basic concepts I can derive these using a stick in the sand on a beach.

I don't need to remember the circuit diagram for two switches controlling one light - I can derive these from basic principles be it two switches or more.

I apply the same principles to designing woodwork joints and pieces of furniture. The only plans I follow are my own and they are again based on sound basic principles.

I know this style frustrates some of my students as they place more emphasis on the result rather than the method of solution.

One of your points I don't understand is the comment about


"I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach." is a non sequitur. It might, but not necessarily does, negate it.

Speaking for myself, I don't feel I am teaching because I am useless writing about or professionally putting the subjects I teach into practice. I am semi retired and I thoroughly enjoy sharing with others my experiences and skills. Financially I don't need to teach at all.

I know AlexS quite well despite being in different states and I feel his views will be similar.

I am sure I have misinterpreted your point.

Mention was made of slide rules. It was only last week that I took one of my old slide rules into one of my woodwork classes that I conduct for year 7's at a local school. They were intrigued and fascinated that such a device existed let alone the functions it performed. It is currently on loan to the school.

[Frank&Earnest]

One of your points I don't understand is the comment about

"I think you will find in the case of Alex and myself that we took up teaching after semi-retiring which in our case negates your point about those who don't know teach." is a non sequitur. It might, but not necessarily does, negate it.

Speaking for myself, I don't feel I am teaching because I am useless writing about or professionally putting the subjects I teach into practice. I am semi retired and I thoroughly enjoy sharing with others my experiences and skills. Financially I don't need to teach at all.



My apologies for not having been clearer. As you said, communication is much easier face to face... :)

All I was trying to convey is that it is a logic fallacy to say that because a couple of people who have semi-retired into teaching are competent in the area they teach, all those who semi-retire into teaching are competent in the area they teach. You might know yourself people who have lost their job in middle age for not having kept up to date in their profession and have found a job in teaching, for which they end up not even having the necessary enthusiasm. Besides, there is no guarantee that a semi-retired mathematician who today teaches calculus admirably will not be asked tomorrow to teach finger painting and, much more unfortunately, viceversa. Which is bad enough in primary school, but IMHO criminal at high school level.
.

[SPIRIT]

My apologies for not having been clearer. As you said, communication is much easier face to face... :)

All I was trying to convey is that it is a logic fallacy to say that because a couple of people who have semi-retired into teaching are competent in the area they teach, all those who semi-retire into teaching are competent in the area they teach. You might know yourself people who have lost their job in middle age for not having kept up to date in their profession and have found a job in teaching, for which they end up not even having the necessary enthusiasm. Besides, there is no guarantee that a semi-retired mathematician who today teaches calculus admirably will not be asked tomorrow to teach finger painting and, much more unfortunately, viceversa. Which is bad enough in primary school, but IMHO criminal at high school level.
.with your finger painting to vce maths point is just a bit of grandstanding frank only history teachers do finger painting as a second subject :U
schools are a business now they don't put people to far from their field

most of the time teacher subject stays the same only the year level changes

[AlexS]

I know AlexS quite well despite being in different states and I feel his views will be similar.
They are.

Mention was made of slide rules. It was only last week that I took one of my old slide rules into one of my woodwork classes that I conduct for year 7's at a local school. They were intrigued and fascinated that such a device existed let alone the functions it performed. It is currently on loan to the school....in their ancient history museum:D
...but did they understand (or could they work out) why it worked?

This discussion has moved on quite a bit from the original topic, which was how hopeless or otherwise today's youth are.
My experience of school teachers is that they are not much different to what they were 50 years ago - a few are hopeless and should find another job, most are quite competent, and a few are inspiring. It would be a big step forward if the best teachers were able to get pay increases as recognition of their teaching ability, without having to go into administration.
I'd also like to see teachers have to work somewhere else before going into a classroom. When I was at school, a couple of the maths teachers had been WWII bomber navigators - they could certainly make maths more interesting. Another good science teacher whom I knew at uni had left school at 16, had 3 kids and only ever worked as a barmaid or waitress until
she went to uni in her late 30s. After she graduated, she worked in the lab at Cascade brewery, and had another baby, before becoming a teacher because of the more friendly hours. That sort of experience doesn't guarantee that someone will be a good teacher, but it sure helps.

[Frank&Earnest]

with your finger painting to vce maths point is just a bit of grandstanding frank only history teachers do finger painting as a second subject :U
schools are a business now they don't put people to far from their field

most of the time teacher subject stays the same only the year level changes

Wish you were right Arty, but being a business makes things worse, not better. When an organisation is motivated by money (profit or funding, whatever) it tends to close one eye or both about principles. Look at what has happened with banks becoming loan sharks, we all got royally screwed.

[Wood Borer]

Alex,

I am taking these kids primarily for woodwork but I have included all sorts of other topics and related them back to woodwork in most cases. This approach is actively encouraged by the school.

The kids haven't studied logarithms yet however I will briefly enlighten them this week. We will probably make simple slide rules this week in between doing their main woodwork project.

The kids are quite hungry for information including solving riddles and puzzles. It is very refreshing to see their enthusiasm and enquiring minds on such a wide range of topics.

F&E,

I agree with you in the case of where people are teaching fundamentally for an income with their passion for teaching as a bonus if it exists at all.

Your example of someone who has been retrenched from an industry teaching almost irrelevant technology happens all too often or they are teaching topics of which they have very little knowledge themselves.

What can be done about it? For fast moving technologies, perhaps they need to teach part time and work at the cutting edge in that industry part time.

For less progressive industries that probably wouldn't be necessary but regular updates would be good.

As indicated earlier though I know of several people who are highly regarded internationally in their field but have difficulty sharing their knowledge. Some of them would be flat out teaching a fly to buzz.

Others who are far less brilliant in their field can convey ideas and concepts to learners very sweetly and efficiently, they were born teachers.

[joe greiner]

...
What can be done about it? For fast moving technologies, perhaps they need to teach part time and work at the cutting edge in that industry part time.


Only a few days' lapse, and I'm in the same boat. This one caught me up for comment.

Adjunct professorships exist for this very reason. According to my very imperfect understanding, some medical schools and law schools require at least a few professors to actually practise their craft. In my uni experience in engineering many years ago, most of the professors had no such practise, or had long ago left such practise. Graduates were great at research and development, using the latest analysis tools, but didn't know what constituted good construction plans. A similar remark came from an architect I recently met. In my engineering practise, I often had to re-work details cooked up by people who had never even built a bookcase made from orange crates. And the construction plans were supposed to be instructions for people with construction experience! 'Tis a minor miracle that the construction didn't go haywire. No wonder I'm almost bald!

Whenever any teacher can spark the kids' curiosity, we all win. Schools serve us best by teaching kids how to teach themselves.

By the by, I once wanted a circular slide rule to keep by a photocopier for reduction and enlargement; such capabilities may now be automatic, or partially so. I don't remember all the details, but essentially, I prepared a spreadsheet using logarithms for the angular ticks, with end points' coordinates for 5- and 10- increment values. By adding text for a LINE command for each, I made a Script file for execution in AutoCAD. I printed the resulting "picture" twice, and glued each print to cardboard, which I then cut out and attached the two circles at a central pivot of some sort. As luck would have it, I was the only one who knew how to use it. It's gone walkabout of course, but it was fun to make. I might have the files around here someplace, but it would probably be easier to start over from first principles.

One nice thing about slide rules, linear or circular, is they provide an immediate appreciation of the importance (or lack thereof) of precision. The fifth or sixth digit of a digital readout isn't so significant, after all. And the "batteries" in a slide rule never expire.:wink:

Joe

[funkychicken]

So do I count as a hopeless young person?

[Wood Borer]

Joe,

The adjunct professorships sound spot on.

Your circular slide rule sounded like a fun project. I recall there were all sorts of graphical charts where you drew lines or used a ruler to calculate quantites by intersecting curves. From memory, lots of these were in the Industrial Chemistry fields.

I have a circular slide rule used for aircraft navigation somewhere.


FC,

Based purely on my experience with younger people and if I didn't know anything about you, the chances of you being hopeless would be quite small.

As I have read your posts ............ hang on, are you after compliments? If I continued writing what I had in mind you might become over confident and stop learning.

If I said you were a hopeless young person I would be telling lies which is against my principles.

What do you suggest that I do?

[AlexS]

The situation at TAFE (technical colleges) seems to be that many of those teaching vocational subjects are doing so part time, while working in their trade or profession. For example, in the Building & Construction section where I work there are an architect, a surveyor and a builder who all work in their own practices. While it is good way for someone who is starting a new practice or who is too old to run around on roof trusses to earn a bit of secure income, they all seem to be doing it because they enjoy teaching, and do pretty good job of it as far as can tell.

FC, if you can count, you're not hopeless.

[funkychicken]

FC,

Based purely on my experience with younger people and if I didn't know anything about you, the chances of you being hopeless would be quite small.

As I have read your posts ............ hang on, are you after compliments? If I continued writing what I had in mind you might become over confident and stop learning.

If I said you were a hopeless young person I would be telling lies which is against my principles.

What do you suggest that I do?

Ah very wise you are. :D No I wasn't after compliments, I'm sure some forumites would be too quick to dish out the opposite:B

NZ does have a point, The "alf" should have had a clue about his job. Thinking (for example) that a circular saw is for cutting circular things is just plain stupid. Some kids ought to get off the xbox and into the world outside more often.

Bunnings should also have at least given the kid some training though.

In my position as a grade 10 student I see alot of thiiiick people. Like, going around punching each other just because they're thick, thick.
But not all the other students are hopeless, eg. one of my mates reads up on stuff like Mr Tesla and his inventions. He's no dummy


As for the school system....Don't get me started:no: It's flawed, I'll just say that much.

[Wood Borer]

FC,

Don't be too harsh on the "thick ones". We all mature at different rates and sometimes we look back after we have matured a bit and are embarrassed at what we see - big deal, keep looking forward because you can't change either the past or what is natural.

Some of those "thick kids" will turn out fine, some of them will remain thick and become thick old pharts.

Don't be fooled into thinking that older people are all wise - some of the dumbest people I know are old (some even older than me) - age hasn't got much to do with it.

The people I feel sorry for are those who have never been given an opportunity and lack the confidence to improve themselves.

The education system is certainly not perfect and never has been but hopefully it is improving.

[Andy Mac]

Thinking (for example) that a circular saw is for cutting circular things is just plain stupid.

I'm still wondering if this guy was having a joke and it was missed in transit!:q

[silentC]

That's my reading of it.