there is no hope for the young poeple

[Frank&Earnest]

That's my reading of it.

Ditto.

Arab proverb: If entering your tent you hit your head against the water jar and it sounds empty, do not be too quick to conclude that it is the jar that's empty. :D

[Frank&Earnest]

... some of the dumbest people I know are old (some even older than me) - age hasn't got much to do with it.



... what about senility? :D

[wheelinround]

I wonder if the young fellow decided he should find out for himself and investigated at least he's working earning a few lousy $$$$ :roll: not on the dole or Austudy, HEX debt, sponging off mum n dad.

While Bunnies management whom are supposed to be well versed possibly HSC know it all's, rub their hands together reaping the rewards of tax payers dollars for training he is possibly not getting building their bank accounts.

Similar to those teachers who had many pay rises during the kids years at school.:doh:
I wonder if he knows he's being rubbished by so many teachers here on the forum.:smack:

Maybe the school system with all its changes, staff re-arranging, the particular school he went to didn't have industrial arts wood work metal work. Had to drop subjects as there were no staff to teach it they didn't get the funding but where placed elsewhere, went off to be TAFE teachers or run their own business.

After all I have used a circular saw to cut round things it is possible :U :p

Jig saws are not used to cut a Jig are they:no:

Scrollsaw don't cut scrolls :no:

Bandsaw's don't cut band's :no:

Oh to be born with all the knowledge needed to get through life :D then there would be no need for teachers :2tsup:

[SPIRIT]

l work at the welfare end of school system ,in our program there is one teacher with a artisan (old tradie ) we work with 10 kids and have them all day 1 day a week for a year this way we get to know the student and their needs .
Went down to the beach today and painted a gazebo BBQ area with a different school l was proud of my boys how well they worked and got along with the other kids


had to have a snooze on the bus back to school :U

[Frank&Earnest]

Scrollsaw don't cut scrolls :no:



English is never that clearcut, Wheely :). I have just been looking to buy a scrollsaw specifically to cut the outlines of scrolls:yes: .... as in carved ornaments, not as in parchment. (Bought a 9" bandsaw with a 1/8" blade instead, don't need internal cuts.)

Another plausible explanation for a genuine "circular" saw misunderstanding is that the kid got confused with "hole" saws. They are circular, are they not? It is the kind of mistake i could see myself making, and I am certainly not young and, even if I keep joking about becoming senile out of fear :C, so far I am not stupid either... Maybe English was his/her second language?

[artme]

Several interesting points have come up here, the one of most interest to me is there point of adequate training.
Just got off the ship in Rio after almost 3 weeks at sea. What an enlightening experience!!
The ship is a beautiful asset/facility. Very modern as it was launched only last year.
The trip was wonderful because of the places we visited and the great people we met.
Putting up with some of the staff and the incompetence and stupidity they exhibited was about as pleasant as a toothache. Not all these people were young but it was obvious that they were not well trained or were trained to the company´s standard.Furthermore, the senior staff had no bloody idea ( on the whole ) about beinghelpful and supportive towards obviously floundering staff. Barking and snarling was the otder of the day.
Had I been on the end of this type of treatment I would have walked off.
Let´s give young people a go! The sort of go I had when growing up and maturing; the sort of go where I was taught and mentored.

[Howdya do that]

Of course they dont know anything these days, all you old farts :q dont teach them anything. All they get is smart arsed responses to seemingly stupid questions. How they gonna learn if no one teaches them. Is it their fault the company doesn't train them? He/she was actually interested enough to talk to you, encouragement might have been a better response. :doh:funny, all the same rofl.:2tsup:

Donna

What she said.




now i here young people at franklinds doing nite fill at $19.50 phr
and thay dont even do there job i mean if there not talking texting or being a idiot
there going on about how there job is so hard and the $ is so bad!!!:;

You open boxs and get payed well to do it its not that hard:doh:

or u get the young kids who drop out of school and get center link
(thats the one that gets me!!! i mean we all pay or tax for them to sit on there ass all day and play xbox!!!!:no:

Would you rather they be paid by Franklins or centre link:?

I have 2 son's aged 14 and 17, they both have part jobs and I could not be more proud that they are out there having a go instead of expecting things.

The 14yo has been working at Coles for 2 months. He has had some fairly difficult times with cranky old farts and people from foreign countries particulary when it comes to identifying some of the exotic fruit vegetables now available.

It seems strange to me that on one hand we bitch and moan about the kid getting money from centrelink then we turn around and bitch and moan when the kid trying to earn a few bucks at Bunnings doesn't know every single one of the thousands of line items they carry.

Hold the "brain dead" until he you have the explain the same thing to them twice.

Whilst I'm on my soap box. Why do we go to Bunnings? Because we percieve they are cheap. If Bunnings only employeed highly skilled tradespeople would they still be as cheap?

[wheelinround]

What she said.



Would you rather they be paid by Franklins or centre link:?

I have 2 son's aged 14 and 17, they both have part jobs and I could not be more proud that they are out there having a go instead of expecting things.

The 14yo has been working at Coles for 2 months. He has had some fairly difficult times with cranky old farts and people from foreign countries particulary when it comes to identifying some of the exotic fruit vegetables now available.

It seems strange to me that on one hand we bitch and moan about the kid getting money from centrelink then we turn around and bitch and moan when the kid trying to earn a few bucks at Bunnings doesn't know every single one of the thousands of line items they carry.

Hold the "brain dead" until he you have the explain the same thing to them twice.

Whilst I'm on my soap box. Why do we go to Bunnings? Because we percieve they are cheap. If Bunnings only employeed highly skilled tradespeople would they still be as cheap?

Howdya this sin't ashot at you or the young fella good on him :;]

I know your far from city hassles but there is signs of trouble looming here, Coles policy is no employee under age 15 its against the law or starters Union, OH&S and Workcover :roll: Insurance will not cover him either.

My point here is the kid aware, but the adults old pharts are so who's not teaching whom.

[Frank&Earnest]

under age 15 its against the law or starters Union, OH&S and Workcover :roll: Insurance will not cover him either.

.

There is no minimum age for casual employees, as long as the work does not interfere with the employee’s schooling.

[SPIRIT]

There is no minimum age for casual employees, as long as the work does not interfere with the employee’s schooling.:rolleyes: vic it's 14 and 9 months :?

[Frank&Earnest]

What have you been smoking, Arty? :D However, I keep forgetting that Australia is still a bunch of colonies, not a nation yet. Victoria is a bit more selective in the type of work children can do. And with some quirks: above 15 can serve alcohol??

http://www.youthcentral.vic.gov.au/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=1118&languageId=1&contentId=-1

[Fireguard]

Lets put things in perspective.
I'll almost put money on the fact that your Grandfathers thought those darn younsters are just slackers.
A few years later your father was thinking the same thing.
Now many years on you may now think that there is no hope for these young people.
And I'll bet that in a few years those "no hope young people" will now be a bit older and be thinking the same thinks about those who come after them.

I think thats just they way things are and will always be. I think its just human nature that we will always consider those that come after us to be 'inferior' in some way.

[silentC]

I think its just human nature that we will always consider those that come after us to be 'inferior' in some way.
This doesn't mean that it's not true. I think about the things my Grandparents' generation went through and wonder how the modern generation would cope with it. They worked hard to give my parents a better life, they in turn worked hard to give us a better life, and so on. Each generation (generally speaking) gets a better start than the last. I think that maybe this has a cumulative affect on character and 'work ethic'. A kind of 'spoilt brat' syndrome. My kids have got it much better than I did. That must have some effect on their personalities and ability to cope with tough times.

[SPIRIT]

This doesn't mean that it's not true. I think about the things my Grandparents' generation went through and wonder how the modern generation would cope with it. They worked hard to give my parents a better life, they in turn worked hard to give us a better life, and so on. Each generation (generally speaking) gets a better start than the last. I think that maybe this has a cumulative affect on character and 'work ethic'. A kind of 'spoilt brat' syndrome. My kids have got it much better than I did. That must have some effect on their personalities and ability to cope with tough times. how easy is it to judge from our middle class towers :-

[silentC]

Well, there have obviously always been people who never have to struggle for anything, and at the opposite end of the spectrum there are people who will struggle all their lives, but I think what you refer to as 'middle class' represents the majority of people in Australia and on this forum. If you can afford to own a computer and have it connected to the Internet, you can't be doing too badly.

As for passing judgement, well yes it is a natural thing to do. You think about what you had when you were young and how you dealt with things and then you look at the kids today and what they've got and it's only natural to criticise them when they complain about how hard they've got it. Just like our parents did. So imagine taking a teenager from today and placing him or her in the middle of the great depression, or World War II? Not saying they wouldn't handle it but it might give them some perspective and appreciation for what they've got - and no doubt it would me too.

The way things are going, we're all going to have to deal with hard times soon enough. Maybe this generation will end up having it harder than our grandparents did. Who knows?

[SPIRIT]

Well, there have obviously always been people who never have to struggle for anything, and at the opposite end of the spectrum there are people who will struggle all their lives, but I think what you refer to as 'middle class' represents the majority of people in Australia and on this forum. If you can afford to own a computer and have it connected to the Internet, you can't be doing too badly.

As for passing judgement, well yes it is a natural thing to do. You think about what you had when you were young and how you dealt with things and then you look at the kids today and what they've got and it's only natural to criticise them when they complain about how hard they've got it. Just like our parents did. So imagine taking a teenager from today and placing him or her in the middle of the great depression, or World War II? Not saying they wouldn't handle it but it might give them some perspective and appreciation for what they've got - and no doubt it would me too.

The way things are going, we're all going to have to deal with hard times soon enough. Maybe this generation will end up having it harder than our grandparents did. Who knows?l put myself as middle class as rightly so you mentioned most of the members on this forum are ! Maybe we have a few upper class just slumming down in their spare time

You are right silent if we sent one of our teenage repetitive back in time they would find it hard

in exchange the past send one of their average teenagers to our time ,how would they cope if the full punch of globalise action,drugs, teenage sex ,violence in the home, drinking, teenage suicide,bloody eating disorders,sexual abuse, parents working 2 jobs so they can live in middle class with a big house so everybody in the street thinks they have a good job and money,divorce, today it is all just shoved down their neck and in their face

In any time in any place children will learn to survive in the world that the generation before them shaped (that being us middle class, voting SHEEP )
The children that can't adapted quicker enough will dye in the past do you want that for your kids or your grand kids ????

l are asked this question earlier, how do we fix the system or do we let kids slip though and leave them to their own devices ?

kids today are no diffrent to any other time ,it is us the grown ups

[Wood Borer]

I have a bit of a problem talking about classes (middle class, lower class etc) as it seems to be based on wealth. Most of the biggest fools I have encountered worship money and consider themselves better than others because of their wealth.

Some of the wealthy have to pay for their kids to attend university because their kids are too thick to get there on their own merits. Does that make them better students? I hardly think so. They are giving their kids the same rotten view on life that money allows you to take short cuts.

There seems to be an attitude that we automatically respect our forefathers and are automatically critical of the generation after us. What a load of rubbish!

There are quite a few oldies with a lack of intelligence (nothing to do with education) demanding respect and pretending they are superior because they lived through the depression or fought in a war. Some of them might even be upset that we might reach their dizzy heights if the current economic disaster becomes a depression too.

There are dumb, average and smart people from all generations. Intelligence is not related to numbers in bank books, postcodes or how many times you have orbited the sun.

There are those who can cope with horrors like war, depressions, fires, and floods from all generations. I think our youngsters would cope with anything the past generations endured. Perhaps the way our generation has brought up the younger ones might make it a bit tough at first but then it is us to blame not the youngsters.

I respect those who cope, those who care and those who can think from all generations. If they are dumb and stupid, they are dumb and stupid no matter what their age or wealth.

[silentC]

The point I'm making is that if they were made to go without some of the stuff they take for granted today, they might appreciate it more and see it for what it is. Like mobile phones. There seems to be an expectation now that kids of a certain age will get one. Take it away and you'd think they'd lost an arm or a leg. I survived quite well without one. Having a mobile phone is just so unimportant in the scheme of things. What about that kid who ran away and was later found dead after his Dad banned him from accessing the internet? He thought he couldn't live without it. Stupid...

[SPIRIT]

we give them the toys and blame the kids when they are missing the point
Now lets take the mobile phones and Internet off the adult why were at it lets get rid of running water and power most people will not cope .
Our generation has lost the skills to survive not the kids , we are to blame but we spend small amounts of money to fix it and vote parties in that help the rich get richer and the poor get poorer .

how do WE fix it :?

[SPIRIT]

Hay Wood Borer your a teacher ? have you done the PD on generational poverty:?

[SPIRIT]

What have you been smoking, Arty? :D
what are you casting nutation's :smokeing::clown:

























:D

[silentC]

Now lets take the mobile phones and Internet off the adult why were at it lets get rid of running water and power most people will not cope .
I'm not suggesting we take anything away from anyone. We all should benefit from the modern world. Running water, now there is a very good example. You turn on the tap and out it comes. Where does it come from? Nobody cares until they turn on the tap and nothing happens. Put people in a situation where they have to conserve their water supply so they come to value it and we might not need so many dams.

[SPIRIT]

I'm not suggesting we take anything away from anyone. We all should benefit from the modern world. Running water, now there is a very good example. You turn on the tap and out it comes. Where does it come from? Nobody cares until they turn on the tap and nothing happens. Put people in a situation where they have to conserve their water supply so they come to value it and we might not need so many dams.
so lets not be to quick to judge

[Wood Borer]

Hay Wood Borer your a teacher ? have you done the PD on generational poverty:?

I don't quite understand:?

BTW I am not a teacher, it is not my profession by any means however I have taught in industry all over Australia and some other countries. I teach some courses locally particularly woodwork part time.

My time is mainly taken up with my woodwork (the shed is almost up and going).

My earlier point was that respect should not be demanded merely because you are old or have experienced something traumatic.

[Ruddigar]

Running water, now there is a very good example. You turn on the tap and out it comes. Where does it come from?
The Romans. :cool:

[Frank&Earnest]

The Romans. :cool:

Funny but profound, and not at all inconsistent with what Silent says: we are the final product of all that came before us, and sometimes the consequences are unintended and unpleasant, while still in a context of overall improvement.

[SPIRIT]

The Romans. :cool:yes yes they gave us plumbing but what else have they given us

[Big Shed]

yes yes they gave us plumbing but what else have they given us

Roman Candles, Roman numerals..................

[Manuka Jock]

yes yes they gave us plumbing but what else have they given us
The Romans gave us plumbing ? on what planet was that ?

[Big Shed]

Planet Earth - Bath (http://www.theplumber.com/eng.html)

[Manuka Jock]

Planet Earth - Bath (http://www.theplumber.com/eng.html)

History is a marvelous thing ,

Study it .:p
Ignoring the first two racist crud websites that crop up on this list (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1W1GGLL_en-GB&q=skara+brae+indoor+plumbing&btnG=Search&meta=),
check out the rest .

[SPIRIT]

I don't quite understand:?

BTW I am not a teacher, it is not my profession by any means however I have taught in industry all over Australia and some other countries. I teach some courses locally particularly woodwork part time.

My time is mainly taken up with my woodwork (the shed is almost up and going).

My earlier point was that respect should not be demanded merely because you are old or have experienced something traumatic.sorry got the wrong member :B
we seem to think the same on this matter

[SPIRIT]

did anybody get the joke l did monkey boy

[Frank&Earnest]

History is a marvelous thing ,

Study it .:p
Ignoring the first two racist crud websites that crop up on this list (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1W1GGLL_en-GB&q=skara+brae+indoor+plumbing&btnG=Search&meta=),
check out the rest .

I would respectfully suggest that you practise what you preach, MJ. Unfortunately, like with the mith of the two fingers at Agincourt and drawing this plumbing long bow :), you seem to be extremely dogmatic about the prayer book you decide to choose, however sound it might be. Your list includes not only racist crud but also whacko conspiracy theory type theories and plain marketing hype of plumbing sites.

According to your own sources, In Skara Brae the only "plumbing" to speak of were sinks or water tanks, made of stones sealed together with clay to prevent leaking. There were no actual conduits, unless you count gutter type trenches. The Minoan Palace of Crete had something more resembling a conduit made of clay and a hole where faeces could be collected and washed away, but for plumbing as we would recognise it you have to go forward to the Roman empire.

Sorry for feeding the hijack, folks.

PS. Just cottoned on the Roman Candles joke. Bit slow, but you did not put a :D after it, Big Shed...<!-- / message --><!-- DONKS ADDED -->

[Manuka Jock]

I would respectfully suggest that you practise what you preach, MJ. Unfortunately, like with the mith of the two fingers at Agincourt and drawing this plumbing long bow :), you seem to be extremely dogmatic about the prayer book you decide to choose, however sound it might be. Your list includes not only racist crud but also whacko conspiracy theory type theories and plain marketing hype of plumbing sites.

According to your own sources, In Skara Brae the only "plumbing" to speak of were sinks or water tanks, made of stones sealed together with clay to prevent leaking. There were no actual conduits, unless you count gutter type trenches. The Minoan Palace of Crete had something more resembling a conduit made of clay and a hole where faeces could be collected and washed away, but for plumbing as we would recognise it you have to go forward to the Roman empire.
<!-- / message --><!-- DONKS ADDED -->
So in your wee world , plumbing is only plumbing if it has lead huh ?
Roman lead .
A water retention and drainage system is not plumbing ?
The fact that the infeed piping has not survived the intervening 5000 years does not not mean that it did not exist .




If you must introduce your pettiness from that other thread , do us all the honour of backing up your 'fantasy history' on that thread , with a link or two to a credible source , on that thread .

[wheelinround]

There is no minimum age for casual employees, as long as the work does not interfere with the employee’s schooling.

True for NSW but they are not allowed to operate anything they are not covered as stated previously can't join unions etc. If they were then kids would be allowed to do more hands on work with machines and tools at school, especially in NSW.

No woodies club can take on any one under the age of 16 for insurance reasons just a further example of idiots. This is nation wide.:roll: This was brought about by well meaning organisations and people who decided kids should be alowed to be kids not exploited


When a teen I got to try out different jobs helping out no pay where I live building sites close by so I sat talking to workers and was allowed to help out brickies throwing bricks, roofers stacking tiles onto convayors and carpenters tote and carry hold lift etc all work experience pre leaving school.

Now you cant even enter the site :no::roll: for many reasons.

[Frank&Earnest]

So in your wee world , plumbing is only plumbing if it has lead huh ?
Roman lead .
A water retention and drainage system is not plumbing ?
The fact that the infeed piping has not survived the intervening 5000 years does not not mean that it did not exist .




If you must introduce your pettiness from that other thread , do us all the honour of backing up your 'fantasy history' on that thread , with a link or two to a credible source , on that thread .

An old boss of mine never said "you did not get it", he always said "we did not communicate". I will try to follow his example. I could not care less about lead in pipes or where the two finger salute came from, I only said, and I repeat, that being dogmatic without solid facts to back your dogma does not do you any favours. I am not backing up any "fantasy history" you are: just because somebody suggests the possibility of infeed pipes that did not survive, it does not mean that they existed. Also, again from your sources there is no shred of historical evidence that the other myth originated at Agincourt. Or anywhere else, for what matters.

As to who is being petty, I am happy to let the other readers decide. Which is the reason why I will not continue this discussion.

[DJ’s Timber]

Keep it on topic people.

Any more deviations from Thread heading will see this thread closed

DJ
Administrator
Woodworking Australia's
WOODWORK FORUMS

[Chumley]

Just to get back on topic :D (crawl, crawl)

Couple of things spring to mind...

One is the interesting phenomenon where it takes 3 generations for a business to fail. I studied this for a uni project years ago. It's more common than you would intuitively think. Put simply it starts with a bright spark (entrepreneur), who has a good idea and builds a business. The next generation that takes over the reins tends to run for stability rather than growth, trying to maintain the quality and status of the business, less interested in expansion and newer ideas. The 3rd generational management experiences a business failure. The general conclusion is that the first gen had nothing and built with nothing to lose, the second gen saw the benefits of the business while also seeing something of the hard growth, while the third gen only sees the benefits and doesn't value them. The other conclusion is that brilliance is not often genetically passed down.

Take a look around, there are examples of this everywhere.

What am I saying with this? I guess, sometimes the younger generation don't have the same starting point of the older, so judgements are often harsh.

Second thing that I remember is telling my mum about my first house purchase - I was 23 years old and had just bought a 3 beddie for $48k (sigh). I remember the look on my mum's face when she turned to her uncle and said something about this makes all those hard years worthwhile. She grew up in central Europe, childhood during the Second World War, went to England with husband and 3 small kids as refugees in mid-50's, emigrated to Aus with husband and 5 kids in early 70's, never owned a house, scrimped and saved to get a car (we've got 3 in the family) and a TV (we've got 5 (sigh)).

Do I work hard? Yes. Do I get things easier than mum did? Yes. Do I think my kids get it easier than me? Yes. Do I think they are without hope? Definitely not. They have a lot to learn in my eyes, but they are products of their environment, which includes my teaching and example.

What am I saying here? I think each generation gets it easier, but that's the nature of progress. Personally I'm glad I spent so much time down the creek or building a tree house rather than hours in front of a computer or game thingy, and I encourage my kids to do the same (not usually very successfully). Yes there are some stupid kids, but there are some stupid oldies as well.

Cheers,
Adam

[silentC]

I think each generation gets it easier, but that's the nature of progress.
Indeed and it's a good thing. We all work to try to make the world a better place for our kids (with mixed success).

I suppose if anything I'm just calling for a bit of perspective from kids. Just an acknowledgement that they've got a lot to be thankful for and perhaps a bit less of the whining when things don't go their way, maybe a bit more of an effort to do things for themselves.

It's OK to say that we create the problem by giving them the toys and so on but the flip side of that argument is that people should also take a bit of responsibility for their own lives. The trouble is we keep telling them that it's not their fault and that we've made them the way they are. We should stop doing that because it gives them a reason to be victims and takes away their responsibility for their actions.

It's a bit like another situation we have here in Australia with a particular group of people. The more we tell them it's all our fault, the more they look to the rest of society to solve their problems and the less responsibility they take for themselves. A very famous representative of that group said "it's time we stopped being victims and started taking responsibility for our own lives".

[SPIRIT]

Indeed and it's a good thing. We all work to try to make the world a better place for our kids (with mixed success).

I suppose if anything I'm just calling for a bit of perspective from kids. Just an acknowledgement that they've got a lot to be thankful for and perhaps a bit less of the whining when things don't go their way, maybe a bit more of an effort to do things for themselves.

It's OK to say that we create the problem by giving them the toys and so on but the flip side of that argument is that people should also take a bit of responsibility for their own lives. The trouble is we keep telling them that it's not their fault and that we've made them the way they are. We should stop doing that because it gives them a reason to be victims and takes away their responsibility for their actions.

It's a bit like another situation we have here in Australia with a particular group of people. The more we tell them it's all our fault, the more they look to the rest of society to solve their problems and the less responsibility they take for themselves. A very famous representative of that group said "it's time we stopped being victims and started taking responsibility for our own lives".you make some good points
everybody no matter from where they are in life one thing they have full control of are the chooses they make ,yes, no stay ,go and so on and all of the chooses one makes will have a bearing on their life some small some large
If we teach this and people understand it the world may be a better place
sorry for the lack of grammar

this would be the biggest hijack thread we started with some poor kid at bunnings :D

[artme]

Some time back I bought some stuff at the local Bunnies and the young mfellow was all at sea so I patiently explained a second time what I wanted and why and suggested we look at labels together because there is alot of information to be found on labels.He was most appreciative and as I left he was still going along the shelf reading labels.

Another time I was looking for some particular nuts, bolts and drills. The young bloke was new to the job( Bolts and Industrial, Evans Rd. ) and asked one of the older staff for help, It was given and was an abject lesson in mentoring.

A few years back I went to the Town where I had taught for many years and pulled into a service station to buy some petrol. The fellow serving me had not been a student at any of the schools I had taught in, but had been with a group of students I had taken for swimming lessons. I asked him if he remembered me and his reply was" Yes. You taught me to swim".

What`s the point of all this? Proper teaching and mentoring is effective and remembered. I hope enough bosses know this.

[Wood Borer]

" Yes. You taught me to swim".

It must have made you walk pretty tall hearing that.

I have had a similar experience relating to technical training and it is amazing how you have influenced the lives of some people yet you do not recall them.

I was told a story of a bloke who died and left a lot of money to his old school. The staff at the school had to look up the old rolls to find out when he attended the school because he was just a quiet average student. He had never had learning difficulties or behavioural problems nor was he a dux or a school captain, prefect etc.

The school had provided him with an unforgettable education that had set him up for life but he was just another student as far as the school was concerned.

It is indeed a huge responsiblity teaching people because you are helping to shape their life in either a positive or negative manner even if it is not obvious at the time.