Why Us??

[Chris Parks]

...MM

You think not, please explain? I guess the total crap comment is indicative that you don't agree.

[ian]

reasons I know of include:
lack of transport -- jobs in many parts of Sydney require that the potential worker own a car. Something that the social housing suppliers in Sydney seem to regularly ignore. (There's a notorious suburb not that far from fletty that is a public transport "black hole". And to walk to a potential employer would take upwards of 1-1/2 hours.)

mental illness.

The places where the unemployed can afford to subsist have very few jobs, or the jobs are seasonal -- like a few weeks during the harvest season, then nothing till the same time next year.

lack of education. As reported by SMH, "46 per cent of us don't have the literacy and numeracy skills required to participate effectively in modern Australia." http://www.smh.com.au/national/you-wouldnt-read-about-it-20100508-ul30.html

[Chris Parks]

As I said, my direct experience and I speak for no others. Extrapolation of that leads me to think the problem exists, if it didn't there would be no attempts to address it by the government and they have done that quite a lot. If it is hard to get to work then there is no need to have a job? I would be part of that 46%, my literacy in maths is primary school standard and no higher.

[ian]

As I said, my direct experience and I speak for no others. Extrapolation of that leads me to think the problem exists, if it didn't there would be no attempts to address it by the government and they have done that quite a lot. If it is hard to get to work then there is no need to have a job?

If government policy is to encourage all working age people to contribute to the economy, then access to transport (to get to a job) is a powerful enabler.

back before I retired I had access to small area census data (small area data typically represents less than 100 houses) and one of my interests was understanding the distribution of motor vehicles across Sydney vs household income vs where jobs were located.
When the small area data is plotted and correlated, you can readily see that many low income households have one or no cars and are located well away from public transport. Drill a little deeper and you find that most of these locations are social housing.

[rustynail]

Let's face it, the disincentive to work is huge. Young people are limited by the lack of on the job training opportunities that once abounded, every one wants experienced people. A university education is no longer a job guarantee. Rent is so expensive a kid has to stay at home with mum and dad, so job seeking is often limited to the home town.
Even if you have a good work ethic, these factors can often be sole destroying.
When I was a young bloke, just about every job I applied for I got. Today, my own kids, who are way better educated than me, have had knock back after knock back before they have eventually slipped into something more comfortable. Why? Was I smarter? No. Was I better prepared? No? Better looking? I wish. Just less jobs and too many people looking.
I'd much rather be 60 than 16 these days.

[MAPLEMAN]

People don't choose to be homeless or poor...it isn't a vocation that one seeks out deliberately
Many reasons that create homelessness and poverty...a very complex dynamic
To say that homelessness and poverty is self inflicted shows a deep lack of empathy and understanding
Kick the poor and homeless in the guts and make them feel a little more unworthy
Charity should start at home...plenty of starving kids and adults in our 'lucky' country...MM

[Chris Parks]

For reasons of his own the person in the SMH article certainly did so I guess there are those who do decide to not have a fixed abode.

My main point was not the homeless aspect but those that choose not to work and reckon that CentreLink should provide them with everything they need and they work to maintain that support; professional bludgers I would call them. Then there are those who the government belts around the head and makes it very hard for them to get the needed help and there are plenty of those. I am sure a few on here would say that I have plenty of empathy and they have been the recipients of it.

[Dibbers]

While i agree that there are plenty of bludgers out there who should and could be working, I also think that there are a plenty of others who have just been dealt a pretty bad hand.

I think the bigger issue facing us as a society is the lack of unskilled employment currently on offer and the future prospects of a further reduction of unskilled labor in the future.

As much as the Government would like you to believe it, not everyone can be an accountant, or an architect, or a doctor. For a society & an economy to function productively, there needs to be jobs available for people from all walks of life to at least enable them to make a choice between working or bludging.

The current climate, particularly in Sydney, is not conducive to that. Everything is CBD centric, and property prices all across the Sydney Basin are unattainable for most. So even if you were willing to clean toilets in the Mac Bank offices in town, you can't afford to live anywhere within a 2 hour commute to do it... that's where its all falling over. There are no manufacturing jobs left, all the warehouses are moving further out due to the property boom... its all related.

If i'm a 25 year old living in Camden on the dole with no education, what are my realistic prospects for breaking out of the poverty cycle? I'd struggle to get an apprenticeship because tradies won't pay a mature wage when they can pay a 16 year old less, there are little to no factory jobs, no manufacturing jobs, and even if i could get a gig in an inner city cafe bussing table, i'd have to pay $70 a week to catch a train to work.

The problem is bigger than people not wanting to work. A lot of those people would actually be worse off financially if they did get a job. Now I'm not saying thats the case for all of them, but until the wider employment/transportation/social issues are resolved, than i don't think this isn't something that food stamps instead of cash is going to resolve.

My 2 cents anyway

[FenceFurniture]

There is an interesting situation brewing in the workforce, and I don't know how it will pan out. In my early days I started my career in IT as a Computer Operator (1976). The big fear then amongst the older population (anyone >25 ) was that computers were going to take everyone's jobs. Any job to do with numbers and calculations was thought to be under threat. It did mean that vast amount of people had to undergo some training so they could learn how to use computers in their jobs, but that was ok - everyone coped with that. Now of course those older timers can only wonder at how things got done at all, previously.

Whilst that has been true to a reasonable extent, computers have also led to their own huge industry. I'm not sure where IT & Related stands as an overall global numbers employer, but I should think it would be right up near the top. It seems that every 4th or 5th person is something to do with IT these days.

Now it's the advent of Robotics that has everyone concerned, but I have to wonder if it's not a repeat of the fear of the 70s? Certainly I understand that employment prospects are vastly different now to what they were at the start of my career, but I suspect that is probably less to do with technology and more to do with the moral compass of employers and our governors (embracing such fanciful ideas as Workchoices et al). Things seem to be skewing vastly in favour of employers these days.

Personally I think that the sooner robots take over the worst of the menial tasks the better. I have never understood how some of these dreadful jobs could be so poorly paid, regardless of the lack of necessary skills required.

[BobL]

Whilst that has been true to a reasonable extent, computers have also led to their own huge industry. I'm not sure where IT & Related stands as an overall global numbers employer, but I should think it would be right up near the top. It seems that every 4th or 5th person is something to do with IT these days.

A high proportion of the workforce are using ICT but jobs specific to IT in the US workforce are only ~3%

The ABS has a prediction that 90% of workers will need to be IT literate within 5 years but what that means is not clear.
Just because someone uses a computer or IT related device at work doesn't mean much in terms of IT literacy. e.g. a warehouse assistant operating a goods in/out data base.

In Australia the most numerous jobs are as follows.


Direct ICT jobs would be buried in the "Professional, Scientific and Technical Services" sector but I doubt they would form more than 50% of that group.

[FenceFurniture]

Back when I started my career there was another guy I knew from school who decided to go on the dole, rather than work. He is still a lazy to this day, but at least is now self employed. He went on the dole in November 1973 (straight after the HSC finished), and was on it for the next 15 and more years except for one or two very short periods (of a few months each).

I heard that at one point he was collecting two doles with a false name and bank account, and the co-operation of a family member.

In 1974 he travelled up and down the coast to Qld on an extended surfing holiday, living off the dole. I don't know all this was able to be managed, but there were obviously some loopholes that were heavily exploited.

There were plenty more people doing similar things in those times (mid 70s to early 90s), and just as easily rorting the system.

but pleeease the welfare system is way to easy in these tough times.

Clearly nowhere near as easy-peasy as described above. How quickly some people can forget the mantra of the 2014 horror budget which was going to make a whole new generation of super-poor youths who were going to have to wait for 6(?) months to get any financial assistance and with a whole bunch of other onerous and rigorous hoops to jump through. Those measures were justifiably stopped in their tracks by the Senate, but is still not easy to get (and stay on) the dole. It is even harder to get a Disability Support Pension.

[FenceFurniture]

A high proportion of the workforce are using ICT but jobs specific to IT in the US workforce are only ~3%

The ABS has a prediction that 90% of workers will need to be IT literate within 5 years but what that means is not clear.
Just because someone uses a computer or IT related device at work doesn't mean much in terms of IT literacy. e.g. a warehouse assistant operating a goods in/out data base.

In Australia the most numerous jobs are as follows.


Direct ICT jobs would be buried in the "Professional, Scientific and Technical Services" sector but I doubt they would form more than 50% of that group.

I take your point Bob, but heh heh we can make numbers tell us whatever we want really. To me, "IT & Related" has places in manufacturing (not here though), edu & training, Retail. May be not so much bricks and mortar retail in the coming years, as online selling completes its take over of that industry (which will create even more IT related jobs).

[Dibbers]

I take your point Bob, but heh heh we can make numbers tell us whatever we want really. To me, "IT & Related" has places in manufacturing (not here though), edu & training, Retail. May be not so much bricks and mortar retail in the coming years, as online selling completes its take over of that industry (which will create even more IT related jobs).

While what you say is true, it's only to a point.

As technology increases, the need for manual input decreases. So what used to take a team of 10 people a month, takes 1 person a week. And anything that still takes 10 people a month to do, will be offshored until they find a solution to cut it back down to 1 person (and usually its still offshored).

Look at designing a webpage. Used to take a designer ages to get one up and running. I can pay a small fee to use an online tool and do it myself in a couple of days.

Manufacturing is another example. Used to have a factory full of people building things, now its a series of robotic arms with maybe 4 or 5 people programming, maintaining and overseeing it all. And those 4 or 5 people competed with 4 or 5 thousand for those jobs.

[rustynail]

Some of the biggest bludgers I know have jobs. The public service is full of them.
Mr and Mrs Doolittle are alive and well in this country.
Every one looks for the cushy job. Bugger that. Give me the interesting job any day.
Paper shuffling....Yuk.
A good work ethic never hurt anybody.

[woodPixel]

Technological unemployment is a reality.

If Amazon Takes Over The World... | Zero Hedge

In early Scifi the machines did everything and we are given more time for relaxing, socialisation, personal pursuits and art - not the drudgery of work.

Isn't this the very reason we invent machines?

Seems to me we are achieving these goals - and society still has the attitude is of "hard work is good".

Yesterday I read a long article on the Russian Gulags of the 50's and 60's. They had this attitude. Hard work is good! I'd wager many of its occupants thought otherwise.

Universal basic income will become a reality. Take the time to remove the right wing blinkers and Arbeit Macht Frei mindset and read a bit about its arguments, reasons and inevitabilities.

Technology will wipe out 90% of all occupations. It is time to consider what we value more: work or free time.