Still with their snouts in the trough

[Auld Bassoon]

Heard on the news last night that Amanda V has shares in a piggery.

I didn't know that the Senate was a listed body

[Andy Mac]

Seems the guts of my post was edited, and the result comes out like a spoilt prat. Oh well. But the essence is that pollies can vote themselves whatever increase they want, but normal Aussies...bad luck, you've got new IR laws, which you didn't vote for.. Obviously someone with a button here thinks that's the way it should be and don't dare express otherwise.:mad: (Incorrect please see above edit by me, Zed)
Gumby you're entitled to your opinion, but the fact that arts can't survive without some support makes it even more reasonable to continue. By your way of thinking, any creature or plant that can't survive without National Park protection is just bad luck/ bad management on its behalf.
BTW, woodworkers can obtain govt support through their State's craft councils, and in Qld at least the RADF fund...if they live outside Brisbane.

Have a good night!

[jow104]

Gumby,

The trees at the back of a painting are painted blue to distinguish them from the trees at the front

Can I get a grant when I visit in October?

[martrix]

Andy, I whole heartedly support what you are saying.


A question for the Moderators.

I have no problem being edited, or even having a post removed, but is there an option in this vBulletin software that can put a small note at the bottom of the post to say that this post has been edited and possibly by whom?

Like I said, no problem being edited, but it is a little frustrating having your say changed, and possibly misconstruing the point you are trying to express.
Also it might help by letting people know about what sort of things get edited, and help to modify the way people express their opinions? (me included).
Some other forums operate this way...........just a thought.

[echnidna]

I agree with Martrix

[Daddles]

Sorry mate but I disagree completely. If my business fails then I go under. I don't get or expect to get any Govt assistance at all. If the arts can't support itself by either selling it's products, getting the paying public in to view them or filling theatres for plays, then tuff. They go.
I don't see why my taxes should support them. All govt funding of this stuff does is help perpetuate mediocrity.

Gumby, you ought to think a bit before posting. There is a lot of assistance for businesses, and not just in funds. But at least with a business idea, you can very easily get funding worth $40,000 for the first twelve months, plus training, plus support. Of course, this has to be a new business, but a friend of mine who's just been through this just ... started a new one. Easy (and the powers that hand out dosh knew). Then there is a lot of support of businesses of all sorts who are struggling. Very, very few artists of any ilk get govt funding at all, let alone anything like $40,000.

Then there's the ongoing help you DO get. I don't know what sort of business you're in Gumby, but you do not have the product you produced dumped in bulk on the market at about 20% of the price it costs you to produce.

Yes, this does happen - why do you think there are all those shops selling books at a fraction of the price of normal retail. Those books are remainders from America - books that were over ordered and instead of being pulped as was the case before our govt removed the protection from our own industry, are now shipped here and sold. Oh, btw, the artist who wrote those books gets nothing for them, not a cent.

And, whatever business you may be in, it's almost certain that the vast majority of like businesses are NOT owned by huge, overseas conglomerates, who, for obscure reasons never explained, seem hell bent on killing the local product in favour of the product from their own country. Yes Gumby, that is the state of Australian publishing, it's why about the only thing you see from Australian authors is either from a 'celebrity' or is literary fiction (a genre not pursued in America). Example - Lothian Books, a hundred year old, Australian family owned publishing company. Last year, they decided to launch a new series of books by Australian authors only. In Jan, they were bought out by Time Life, and the local editor sacked. Then, a few months later, Time Life sold the lot to Hachette who killed the new Aussie series (lack of sales, mind you, the books weren't in existence and nothing had been pitched to the book sellers for pre-publishing sales ). This company has not gone on with a policy of serving up stuff published by its parent company.

But that isn't happening in your industry is it Gumby. Because it's not allowed to.

Are you in a trade Gumby? Or a profession of some sort? Doesn't matter. Wherever you started, you had to learn the business, learn the craft didn't you. You might have done an apprenticeship. You might have gone to uni, then found a job on a lower rung of the industry. In either case, you were paid while you worked your way up to being a master of your industry/craft/profession, whatever. That doesn't happen with the arts. Unless you are already a celebrity, you will receive NOTHING for your efforts until you are a master ... and then you are unlikely to receive much at all. In my art, writing, a ten year full time, utterly unpaid 'apprenticeship' is considered normal, and the 'apprentice' receives not a thing until it is deemed 'completed' - which is why nearly everyone pursuing this has to have another job and so the process takes longer.

So next time you go making simplistic comments like the one I quoted above Gumby, ask yourself why our television is full of American trash, why it is hard to find Australian authors in the book shops, why the movie theatres are filled with American product, why the only Australians doing well seem to be expatriates.

But hey, it doesn't matter. The arts reflect our culture. But in this country, we don't give a stuff about the arts. We value them less than the witterings of a mindless bimbo on television who has become a 'celebrity'. Gumby, thanks to attitudes like the one you displayed above, Big Brother is the level of Australian culture.

With attitudes like yours Gumby, the sooner we sign up as the 51st state of America, the better.

Richard

The above was sent in liu of a reddie. I am happy to oblige though

[workgoose]

I'm afraid I agree with Gumby, if you wanna do arts- you pay for it. If you are good enough, I'll be the first to buy your stuff. At the same time I don't like pollies voting themselves increases every five minutes either, or keeping troops in other countries for that matter. But what are we talking about - woodworking is infinitely more productive and interesting than all this rubbish, so let's get back to it...cheers Peter

[Andy Mac]

Thanks for the edification on your deletion, Zed. Yes I know we shouldn't delve into politics or religion, stick to woodwork as workgoose says, but the powers that be in Canberra have my eternal disdain, and sometimes the urge to shout something in their direction gets the better of me.
And thanks for the moral backup Daddles. There will always be people anti any support for the arts, and as I said before they're entitled to their opinion. The power of the market place should extend to all levels of endeavour perhaps, but I try to think of artists as sitting outside a little, looking in and reflecting what their culture is. And by doing that they set themselves apart from normal economic concerns.
Any level of government that supports the arts in way of grants etc, is always aware of being seen to be doing it, of a generous gesture to the arts makes them look 'cultured'! My only concern about that close connection between artists and govt. is the possiblity that freedom of expression is removed or at least tainted by towing a political line. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Cheers

[jow104]

With regard to editing of threads.

Here in the UK we have certain prominent people who have a fantastic second income, they sue people for deformation etc. (sometimes I think they provoke to create business)

So perhaps the moderators are doing a member a favour if they spot a problem likely to arise and do an edit.

I have found a very accomodating moderator

[martrix]

With regard to editing of threads.

Here in the UK we have certain prominent people who have a fantastic second income, they sue people for deformation etc. (sometimes I think they provoke to create business)

So perhaps the moderators are doing a member a favour if they spot a problem likely to arise and do an edit.

I have found a very accomodating moderator

totally agree.
It's just that sometimes you don't know you have been edited or stepped out of line.

[Clinton1]

The power of the market place should extend to all levels of endeavour perhaps, but I try to think of artists as sitting outside a little, looking in and reflecting what their culture is. And by doing that they set themselves apart from normal economic concerns.

Perhaps its a matter of too many artists and not enough arts buyers.
I sometimes think that we expect too much from a country of a relatively small population.
With only 20 million (54th largest population out of 239), we have a landmass that is the 6th largest country in the world. Thats a lot of roads for a relative few to maintain through taxes, and roads will always win the funding war over arts.

I quoted you in order to ask: is there any reason that "setting themselves apart from normal economic concerns" is something that is important to maintain?

[Andy Mac]

Hi Clinton,
In one way I meant it simply that artists are often too airheaded to be good financial managers, that fiscal reality is of no interest; and I also indicated later that money and art can be a bad mix, because freedom to say what you want is compromised, if all you are thinking is the bottom line. It is about maintaining an independance....and also a nod that money isn't always the main concern in life.
But I also mean, and I think serious woodworkers can agree, that art will very rarely be appreciated (in monetary terms) for the input required. We aren't paid on an hourly basis!!:eek: Far from it. Therefore we consciously do it for love, or desire, or need, whatever that urge is. If the economic rationalists were in charge of art making, it'd be whambamthankyoumam...lower input as feasible, out it pops from a conveyor belt in quick time, and would you like that one in blue sir?
We should cherish it more, if only in a soft beauracratic way through arts grants. In saying that, it is from the public purse, and the allocation of grants should be well considered. I'll reserve my judgement on the blue painted trees because I don't know of the work!

Cheers,

[Gumby]

Then there's the ongoing help you DO get.

Before I consider whether your post is worth replying to or not, please explain this generalisation.

[Wood Butcher]

Maybe Richard should have said "could get" not "do get". I have a mate that started up a business for himself and once he started asking around, he found the is heaps of government (state and federal) funded support systems that people can access (obviously there are certain criteria like turnover etc).
Even my parents can get access to some stuff with a decent size small business. There is plenty of help (especially advice) you just have to ask!

[Ashore]

With regard to editing of threads.

Here in the UK we have certain prominent people who have a fantastic second income, they sue people for deformation etc. (sometimes I think they provoke to create business)

So perhaps the moderators are doing a member a favour if they spot a problem likely to arise and do an edit.

I have found a very accomodating moderator

Fair enough but I don't think was the moderator in this case

Gumby, I object!! I've had the odd arts grant, not $40,000 by any means. Snouts in trough it ain't. Called survival.

<zed - deleted text that vilified current Oz IR laws. this aint a political forum - apologies if this offends - please PM and ask if appropriate to be re-instated - I will then reinsert your text... (but you will need to tell me again what you said; I cant remember exact text {Embarrased} Cheers )

If the said text vilified current IR Laws then it should be deleted no question No arguement ever, but to then say I will reinsert your text if says its ok but I can't remember what I deleted exactly

I realise you added {Embarrased} and put your reasons for deleting in a civil and clear way, rather than just cutting the offending text and saying nothing
I know the moderators do a great job and are the reason that the forum is as good as it is and have no problem with them deleting and moving as they see fit but to delete and then state that they are not be sure what was deleted :confused:
Possibly a move to the orange room may have been more appropriate though I am not privy to what can and can't be done, so this is just my thoughts -apologies if this offends-