Keeping out moisture

[journeyman Mick]

Vautex,
if your main aim is to stabilise the timber then you may want to think about using a 2 pack epoxy wood preserver, either Wattyl wood preserver or Epicraft. These are both very thin 2 pack epoxy products extensively used in boat building to protect timber. You keep applying it until the timber won't soak up any more. Once you've applied it though you are limited in the finishes you can apply over it as not everything will stick to it. Usually they're top coated with 2 pack epoxy or polyurethane paints or clear finishes.

Mick

[Vautex]

Thanx Mick. Sounds good but expensive in the long run.

What are your thoughts on something as simple as a waterbased urethane such as cabots crystal clear or wattyl's estapol gloss floor finish. This is FOR THE INSIDE ONLY as I can treat the outside with shellac or danish oil or something.

Will a couple of coats of that inside it do the trick you reckon. Its only, what, $15 or so roughly each. 2 packs tend to be quite dear ive found and I would like to keep it NON-TOXIC.
A couple of people from the "old school" reckon drowing it in linseed possibly with kero in it. Im not so sure though and reckon itll stink too much.

Anyway Im leaning towards the water based poly stuff for the inside at the moment unless anyone can tell me why I really shouldnt do it.

Cheers

[journeyman Mick]

Vautex,
general rule with timber is if you want it to be stable then treat both sides of a piece the same to equalise moisture uptake or loss. If you treat the inside with one finish and the outside with another then they will behave differently to moisture changes, possibly with disastrous consequences. While the two pack finishes smell pretty nasty when you apply them they are inert once set and possibly safer than your proposed water based urethane.

Mick

[Vautex]

Bloody hell, thanks Mick. Cant believe I didnt think of that. Excellent point.

The number one priority is the sound quality and performance and being able to maintain that. Looks really do come second. If it looks too good Ill never want to take it anywhere which kinda defeats the whole purpose. A 2 pack epoxy, which I was trying to avoid, really is sounding like the way to go.

I was initially worried about cost but have finally realised that a one off job with epoxy will be cheaper and easier in the long run than an oil product which will require continuous oiling.

How does the Estapol 7008 or envirotex product sound. Will these be addequate in your opinion? The envirotex has no reducer but the Wattyl does which you buy separately, is it needed.

What should I look out for and how do I go about applying this finish when the didge is standing up? Im thinking that if the consistancy is wrong Ill have problems with the inside especially.

Anyway, I reckon I am finally at a stage where I can make a decision and get this job done finally

Cheers once again. This forums been great.

[ubeaut]

Thought I might just wade in here for a few seconds. Personally I reckon you're barking up the wrong tree. (No pun intended)

Firstly it is pretty unlikely that your didge will split up as you have basically taken the centre out of a limb and relieved the timber from any of the stresses that make it split.

Secondly many of the finishes, especially the oils would end up making you feel a bit sick, especially as you will be constantly breathing in the fumes whilst you are playing the instrument. Some of the oils have fumes that will last for years, especially tung oil and Organoil.

I think you may find the traditional finish (if any) is emu fat or oil with a beeswax mouthpiece. The moisture you put into the piece from your breath will not make it split but will help to keep it in good condition and eventually give it a better sound. Most woodwind instruments (to my knowlege) are raw timber in the inside and only become better in the sound department as they are continually played.

Finally. Why on earth would you want to coat it inside and out with a plastic finish. You could have gone out and purchased a bit of plastic water pipe and saved yourself hours and hours of work.

Not trying to be a smart ****. Just practical.

Cheers - Neil

PS if you really must put something on it then a couple of coats of white shellac on the outside with a bit of good wax over the top should bo nicely. Unless you can get your hands on some Emu fat, or oil. Personally I'd stick with the shellac.

[PAH1]

I liked Neil's post. Heres my two cents worth, you can make the digerdoo totally inert to moisture, with the caveat of making it more dense and inflexible.

Find a large sealable tub and a cold room to put it in. Place the Didge in it and cover with 10% metho 90% water for 1 wk, drain off and replace with 20% metho again for a week. Keep going in 10% increments untill you hit 100%. Dehydrate an appropriate amount of 100% meths with anhydrous magnesium sulphate (or molecular sieves) and again flood the didge for a week. Dilute LR White epoxy resin or other THERMO set epoxy to 50% with more dry metho cover the didge and let sit for two days, cover the didge in undiluted LR White and let sit for a couple of days. Drain off excess and place in a 65degree oven for 24hrs.

Voila one completely preserved stable piece of wood, it would probably play like and would smell funny for a long time but it would work. This is a variation of the process that resulted in Scrimber only they used vacuum to get the resin into the broken down fibres.

[jur]

Most woodwind instruments (to my knowlege) are raw timber in the inside and only become better in the sound department as they are continually played.

True. Being a recorder player myself and owning a number of wooden recorders, these come in two varieties: Cheaper versions are often made from maple which is first vacuum impregnated with wax and then turned, to end up with an instrument which is essentially impervious to breath-borne water. However, even these instruments have to be "played in" over a period of some months, slowly increasing the playing time each day as the wood absorbs moisture and reaches a stable point.

More expensive recorders are raw on the inside, and while also requiring "playing in", also have to be OILED regularly on the inside to keep the timber in top condition (ie water-resistant), in whole again due to the breath-borne water vapour. The idea is to get the timber to a stable point and keep it that way. Oiling it brings the timber to a condition where water neither moves in or out of the wood fast enough to be a problem. Oiling also is dead easy - the idea of regular re-oiling is a pleasurable job for me. As for tung vapours - well to each his own, it smells very pleasant to me.

But then again, a recorder is a precision instrument with tenons which can easily crack, while a didge is a course wooden pipe with no tenons (but also requiring great skill to be played, of course).

Perhaps emu oil would be best traditionally speaking, but it does bring out the question of why these were traditionally oiled in the first place? I think maybe for water reasons?

[Vautex]

OK, I woke up this morning and found I hadnt easily decided after all. I just cant bear to coat it in plastic. My other one is only coz it got a crack it and the guys said they would fix it and well, thats how they did it. I dont mind it so much.

Neil thankx for sharing. Ive done a bit a searching around here and your opions tend to carry some weight. I will say though it sounds nothing like plastic even with the epoxy. It is still very rough inside in terms of contours. It just sounds a lille cleaner and refined than before.

I wasnt after a "Traditional finish" but a "natural looking" one. That is one that will bring out the grain and depth. Im also glad you mentioned shellac coz I really like the idea but nearly every one has talked me out of it. They tell me its too brittle, too this, too that, and dont bother.

Well then if aint moisture, I dont know is making them crack, but they cracking all over the work. Like I said, Ive done a fair bit of reading around about the didge and cracking is a very common occurunce. Only after my first one cracked did I read that they should be "broken in" like Jur said. The first site I came across when looking at other instruments that need oiling was a site on recorder.

Ive also read that a lot of other people use tung oil in their didge. Some swear by, others say itll help crack it up but I havent yet heard it making anyone ill, which is funny coz I was with you Neil in terms of thinking that.

Just though id mention that walls of this thing really are about 5mm in places. I was thinking of having shellac on inside and out. Also, if I used a hard or white shellac on the outside only, will it be enough to resist the lesser presures of a hollowed bit of wood from cracking. Oh and dont just say yes just to make me happy

Just before I go, the crack that appeared in my first didge started 20cm down from the mouthpiece and is about 20cm long. This, to me, has got to do with the heat and moisture from your breath, as most cracks I heard of also occur near the mouthpiece.

Thanx again everyone, and Neil, for reviving my original thoughts on shellac. Where can I get a white or hard shellac from here in WA. I did find some blond flakes at timbecon for $45 for 500g.

This emotional tug of war is killing me and my poor didge is caught in middle waiting to be finnished and played

[Richardwoodhead]

This subject is nothing I'm experienced in (I can't even play a harmonica). However, I have worked a fair bit with splitting wood - Jarrah, Marri, Sheoak, Blackbutt. Both as boards and slabs re cabinets & tabletops. Where I have splits that I want to "fix", I fill them with a 2 pack epoxy resin, either clear or coloured to suit the wood (with colouring oxides. There are resins of differing consistency for different jobs. Some are very runny - which is OK if you want to fill a large crack or hole. Some are very viscous. Which are best for vertical surfaces or if you want to work it in but not see it drain away.

In your case, I would recommend CONGLUE. It works to a very smooth but viscous paste which you could work into your split. After a day it's rock hard and you just sand it back. If you colour it right, you wont even see it as a split. AND (the best part) I've noticed that after "plugging" the split this way, the wood generally stops splitting - at least in that location! Although I usually go on and seal the furniture with lacquer or Danish/polyurethane - so maybe if it was left unfinished it would just keep slitting? However - I've fixed cracks & splits in boards this way, that I then decided against using - and come back to it years later - and the split is still closed.

You can buy CONGLUE from Hobbywoods at Home Base in Subiaco. Speak to Bruce. He's fairly knowledgeable (if that's how you spell it?)

[outback]

..... Speak to Bruce. He's fairly knowledgeable (if that's how you spell it?)

Yeh I checked, that's how you spell Bruce.

[Vautex]

Cheers Richard thatll come in handy if I do end up with crack. The didge in question doesnt have one yet and so Im trying to find some measures of preventing it from happening.

The problem is I cant decide which finish to use, especially when Im not very knowledgeable on the subject (if thats how you spell it)


......yes Outback I know subject is spelt right.

[ubeaut]

Dewaxed White Shellac is available in Perth at Timbecon and Carba-Tec.

Maybe I'm completely wrong here but my thinking is that you don't get cracking from putting moisture into the wood. It is from taking it out. The ends of the didge and any other limb type of wood will always be where the splitting starts. If the end is sealed with beeswax or similar then it is more than likely the splits will start a little further down the limb.

Personally I'd let it do its own thing and split if it is going to. Then fill the splits with a resin at a later date. This way all or most of the stress would come out of the timber as nature intended and you shouldn't get any nasty little surprises down the track.

Maybe seal the outside with the shellac and wax to protect it a bit and leave the inside unsealed to allow the timber to do its own thing. Your other option might be to go down the other traditional track and paint the outside.

Cheers - Neil

[Sturdee]

Yeh I checked, that's how you spell Bruce.

Outback is not only a woodwrecker but also the board's spell checker.

Peter.

[Vautex]

I reckon you are probably right Neil in regards to the lack of moisture causing the cracking. I guess thats why old wood cracks as it breaks down and becomes dry. Its just figured that slight moisture going back in might cause it to expand enough to crack, probably in an area that was likely to crack or is weak anyway. The first didge that cracked did so in a spot that was visibly shaped too thin compared to the rest, you could actually see a concave profile.

Now that Ive put a lot of work into it in terms of chiseling and sanding Ive actually found I really like the natural wood feel over the poly finish on my other didge. I cannot explain it, it just feels and looks right. I even contemplated leaving entirely as it was except for sanding. The reason I didnt is that I read too many times about other didges cracking and that the cause is the moisture from your breath etc. I am starting to think that this is mostly due people not breaking in their didges. Three times last night I read about whose didges cracked in the first week, I think that says a lot. Another story was an old didge that cracked but only after experimenting with water in the bore, like the traditional Arnhem Land people did. In other words it all about extremes and sudden changes.

Thanks Neil. Your proposal is what my original intentions were. I was keen to use shellac on the outside (and maybe inside but probably not so as to save it). Its seems I was led down the garden poly path for a while there hehe

One final thing is your thoughts on hard shellac and its availability here. Im not sure Timbecon has it. Or should I just stick to your premixed white shellac?

Cheers Everyone.

[journeyman Mick]

Vautex
I'm not pushing the epoxy line over any others, after all I'm a carpenter/joiner, not a polisher or finisher. If you do decide to use epoxy though, go for an epoxy wood preserver (as mentioned previously) rather then a 2 pack finish. I think you'll find the preserver to be cheaper and it doesn't end up looking like a shiny finish. Because it's so thin it soaks right in and ends up looking more like a satin oil finish. It will smell awful while it's setting up but once fully cured is inert. The Epicraft Everdure smells a lot nicer than the Wattyl timber preserver (but is more expensive). Decisions, decisions!

Mick