Environment problems

[rod@plasterbrok]

Well I did say the argument applies equally to both sides. As does the one that scientists can be wrong.

Hence the need to assess carfully all scientific arguments before making an informed decision of your own personal leaning.

None of us laymen can say for certain this or that is happening we can only form a view and follow the science.

Too many people simply just believe what they read in the paper or are told by others without making enquiry to other points of view.

This subject is highly emotive as demonstrated by Astrid, who on another thread stated that she hardly speaks to her brother inlaw because he does not believe in AGW. What a shame that she would destroy what may be a perfectly normal relationship because of her belief in AGW.

I have many good friends that disagree with my position and they are still good friends.

The fact that this belief can stir such strong emotions is a worry, the emotions cloud the ability to look at the facts and form a more reasonalble position.

This blind faith in AGW is simply wrong but understandable as the fear and hype has been very effective in forcing this faith on many people.

Politicians have been forced to act as they could never win an election with an anti AGW stand. The fact politicians have come out in tacit agreement on AGW has in turn re-enforced public opinion.

There are too many holes in the theory to be ignored and because of the emotions etc it will take a long time to reverse even if or when irrefutable evidence to the contrary is presented.

[boban]

At some point, be it religion or climate change, you must rely on others to relay information. What you want to believe you will justify based on your own experiences. Remember WMD's. How many were convinced?

I really don't see the point in doing nothing. There is no logical reason to do nothing if we can figure out viable alternatives. We humans are very resourceful when we have to be.

We are all getting our knickers in a knot over nothing really. By that I mean those who dont want to do anything because it will cost too much.

If your electricity bill doubled because we went solar, then you would adapt. You have to. Less money spent on the next TV, V8 or whatever luxury we take for granted now. After food and shelter, everything else is unnecessary. Perhaps we should focus on that fact.

Don't get me wrong, I love my toys, but I know I can do without them. My grandfather and those before him did. He was a blacksmith and farmer in Croatia and reckoned he had a good life (all 94 years of it). No plasma in his house, no boat, no Landcruiser, but plenty of wine and enough food to get by when the wars weren't on.

[SPIRIT]

the number of post on this subject over the last year what over a few 1000
18 years ago we got into something called premaculture,back then we knew something was wrong if the way we were heading started teaching it in comunity centers ,then had a bit of a run in high schools,
sorry l couldn't get though all 14 pages of posts

now we all look at it if we need to start repairing the earth it will hurt our way of living ,so true if you always look at the darker side of things

just afew things that CAN be done that will immprove your living standed

#1 live local.... this mean thing you do bring them as close to home as posable,work ,school,shopping biuld up a net work around where you live its called a comunity .IF you are a boss please hire people that live local!!

#2 networking/trading....this is the most enjoyable part shareing your exsess this could be food from your garden ,things from work that are just tossed away ,labor,knowage,ect it may take years to get repayment from somebody this is the tricky bit is that you have to owe other people favours for the whole thing to work

#3 supply as much of your own needs as you can ,food ,water,heating ect

thats just a small part of the plan ,
see not much suffering and the energy saved in transport would help

PS l am also a sinner, love a holiday up the east coast surfing with the kids but l try to do my bit

[woodbe]

Hence the need to assess carfully all scientific arguments before making an informed decision of your own personal leaning.

More than that.

As laymen, we simply cannot assess scientific arguments well. We don't have the knowledge, the process, the training or the experience.

So, it helps to take a bit of a disbelief role, as you have done, Rod, but not to latch on to either side, but to question the authority of those that deliver us the science. Check the credentials, look at the peer review information, look at where these scientists come from, and who pays their wages.

Yes, it's shocking, but vested interests have been involved in muddying the waters in many debates that have been in the public eye, and not just this one. Tobacco is the big one, but also obesity, asbestos, flouride, vaccinations, etc. etc.

Never underestimate the power of profit to subvert the truth.

woodbe.

[astrid]

BY ROD

"This subject is highly emotive as demonstrated by Astrid, who on another thread stated that she hardly speaks to her brother inlaw because he does not believe in AGW. What a shame that she would destroy what may be a perfectly normal relationship because of her belief in AGW."

Actually I dont speak to my BIL because he makes his living in 2nd & 3rd word countries exploiting the locals for peanuts (he's in exploratary mining)
Thinks GW will be OK because (if it happens) he's got millions and will be able to protect himself and he's generally a complete Ahole

kindly dont selectivly para phrase me to support your dishonest arguements.
If you wish to quote me in full, thats fine and i'll take any flack that comes.

Astrid

PS dont know how to hilight quotes

[woodbe]

PS dont know how to hilight quotes

It's easy to do, but hard to explain, because the forum software does it once you put the pieces in place.

Easiest method is to click the 'Quote' button and delete the bits you didn't want, making sure to leave the square brackets [] alone.

Next method is to paste the offending text into the window, select it with the mouse and click the quote button

Last method is to manually type the "quote" and "/quote" markup enclosing them in square brackets.

Hope that helps...

woodbe

[astrid]

Thanks Woodbe,
Little by little we master the beast.

Astrid

[LotteBum]

This thread just goes to show that some people will search endlessly in order to find information which supports their own opinion, rather than search for real information, regardless of whether it may contradict their own opinion. That's narrow minded and rather pathetic.

Personally, I'm somewhat sceptical about the human impact on AGW, but I'm not silly enough to sit back and do nothing... those who are must be plain selfish.

Lotte

[Mickj]

Wow... Excellent thread guys.
When all the emotion is taken out, you guys actually make sense.

Well Done.

[rod@plasterbrok]

Astrid.
I definitely do not want to get into a slanging match with you, but I find your reference to my arguments as being "dishonest" rather offensive as I have not said one thing that could be considered dishonest. Just because you happen to dissagree with my view does not make me or my arguments dishonest.

If you would like me to quote you in total thats OK by me here it is.

By Astrid
my brother in law is a geologist with heavy investments inmining, uranium etc.

funny that he is also a man made climate change sceptic.

he believes that any climate change is a natural phenomina and there is nothing we can do about it.
he also states that some people will be less comfortable (like dead?)

i try to argue that if it is anatural phenomina will not our rapacious use on fossil fuels make the phenomina worse

his answer "we'll be OK cos I have the economic reasources to cushion the effects for my family"

needless to say, I dont talk to him unless I have to

I think this supports my argument as I presented it. I have not put you down in any way for having this view I simply say it is a shame. Nor do I put you down for your views on AGW even though I strongly disagree with them, more so, that you seem to be very closed minded on the subject and emotionally attached to it. As demonstrated by your posts and willingness to put down anyone that does not share your view. In particular to denegrate any person who produces scientific evidence that does not support your mantra.

Why can't you simply debate the content and validity of such, rather than try to discredit the person.

Or simply put forward your own views that can then be open to be debated as SilentC and I have done in a very civilised manner. SilentC you have my respect!

Cheers Rod

[astrid]

I think that to selectivly take part of someones post without refering the whole, to try to imply that some people are so obsessed with a belief that they are willing to damage relationships is dishonest.
This is an attempted slur on those who you obviosly see as a political threat.
Its an old trick of the right wing and Ill pull you up on it.

as i might add is accusing people of being "emotional"
and playing one party off against another

and as to my non contribution, I'm reading and thinking. The AGW believers dont need me to blow your arguments out of the water,
They're doing a fine job on their own.

Astrid

[boban]

I think that to selectivly take part of someones post without refering the whole, to try to imply that some people are so obsessed with a belief that they are willing to damage relationships is dishonest.
This is an attempted slur on those who you obviosly see as a political threat.
Its an old trick of the right wing and Ill pull you up on it.

Astrid

I really think you have got it wrong Astrid. But that's just my opinion.

[Big Shed]

I really think you have got it wrong Astrid. But that's just my opinion.

Hear, hear

[astrid]

thats fine guy's
but it wasnt your post that was misused.
I dont think it was even on this thread.
and I have been a very minor player on this one.
So what was Rods point.
Astrid

apologies to moderators

[Groggy]

Apologies to moderators would be misdirected in this instance.