Warnie to retire?

[Doughboy]

Murali has his wickets granted but have a look at how many tests his team has played against the minnows of cricket ..... that compared to Mr Warne is impressive in terms of wickets but play the top four or five teams as much as the Aussies have and me thinks Murali would be struggling to be close to the Warne. That said

Warne may well be the greatest leg spinner ever to play the game ........ it does not make him a good person.

Pete

[Shedhand]

Murali has his wickets granted but have a look at how many tests his team has played against the minnows of cricket ..... that compared to Mr Warne is impressive in terms of wickets but play the top four or five teams as much as the Aussies have and me thinks Murali would be struggling to be close to the Warne. That said

Warne may well be the greatest leg spinner ever to play the game ........ it does not make him a good person.

Pete

Murali IS a chucker and his bowling record should expunged. :mad:

[Grunt]

Warnie takes more balls and gives away more runs per wicket than 50 other players. In what way is that cooking the books.

You just get excited about Warnie taking 700+ wickets and think that that is the be all and end all of being the greatest.

If that is the case the Murali will become the greatest bowler of all time. Brian Lara would be the greatest batsman of all time and Bradman would be 30ish in the world.

I will say that Warnie is the best leggie of all time but in my time I think Lillie, Ambrose, McGrath to name a few were better bowlers with more impact than Warne.

[Grunt]

He was in his prime when the player pool had been decimated by the 2nd war.

He only played in one series after the war. He played his last test in 1948. There was no Test cricket played during the war. He was also 40 years old when he played his last test.

[Grunt]

Controversy of bowling action

Muralitharan's bowling action is controversial amongst many purists, as to some it appears that it contravenes the laws of the game by straightening the arm in the course of the delivery. This is despite his action being exonerated unanimously by an international panel consisting of members from every Test playing nation. The controversy came to a head after Australian umpire Darrell Hair called a "no ball" for an illegal action seven times during the Boxing Day Test match in Melbourne, Australia, in 1995. After discussions between the Australian Cricket Board and the Board of Control for Cricket in Sri Lanka, Hair umpired no further games involving Sri Lanka in the season. Reaction to Hair's actions was mixed. He was widely criticised in Sri Lanka and elsewhere, but some, particularly in Australia, felt that it was long overdue. It would be simplistic to assume that opinion was divided purely by nationality though, with Australia's greatest ever cricketer, Sir Donald Bradman, quoted as saying it was the "worst example of umpiring that [he had] witnessed, and against everything the game stands for. Clearly Murali does not throw the ball". [17] [18]
Muralitharan was later no-balled for throwing by Australian umpires Ross Emerson and Tony McQuillan in a one-day international against the West Indies, in Brisbane, Australia, in the same summer. Following this season, Muralitharan underwent biomechanical tests in Hong Kong and Australia under the supervision of bowling experts, who cleared his action as legal, citing a congenital defect in Muralitharan's arm which makes him incapable of straightening it, but giving the appearance of the arm straightening in the bowling action. [19]
Doubts about Muralitharan's action persisted, particularly in Australia. In 1999, he was once again called for throwing by umpire Ross Emerson in an ODI against England, at the Adelaide Oval in Australia. The Sri Lankan team almost abandoned the match, but after instructions from the president of the BCCSL (relayed to captain Arjuna Ranatunga by mobile phone) the game resumed.
Muralitharan took his 500th Test wicket in the second Test against Australia in Kandy on March 16, 2004. At the end of the series his doosra delivery was officially called into question by match referee Chris Broad and Muralitharan was entered into a two-stage remedial process for bowlers with suspect actions under the supervision of the International Cricket Council ('ICC'). The delivery was examined by biomechanical experts who found it to exceed the current tolerance limit, regarding the degree of bend in the arm, of five degrees for slow bowlers. Australian prime minister John Howard weighed in, controversially labelling Murali a 'chucker'. Despite this he won accolades from former Australian captain, Steve Waugh, who said he was "the Don Bradman of bowling". Waugh went on to say that he felt Muralitharan's action was perfectly legal.

Bowling action of Muttiah Muralitharan


Muralitharan has subsequently been videotaped bowling while wearing an arm brace that prevents the straightening of the arm, in an attempt to clear his name once and for all. It appears unlikely that this will ever happen, as his critics maintain that only his bowling during real matches can be considered and that it's possible he changes his action when under scrutiny. Some experts who have viewed such tests have dismissed their value. Former Indian spinner Bishan Bedi has been particularly vocal in his criticism of the testing, asking, "Why should a bowler be allowed to chuck because he has a defective arm?" and comparing Muralitharan's action with that of "javelin thrower".
There is speculation that the match referee's actions were an attempt to derail Muralitharan's attempt to become the all-time leading wicket taker. Former players like Arjuna Ranatunga believe this to be a "white conspiracy" with some Australians and Englishmen wishing to get the name Muralitharan expunged from cricket records. Ranatunga asserted that Muralitharan was being picked on because of his skin colour. Ranatunga's actions were seen by some as an attempt to deflect inquiries over Muralitharan's action by branding those making such claims with the pejorative term "racist". It should be noted that Muralitharan has many powerful allies in Australia and England. Examples include Mark Nicholas, Bruce Yardley, Andrew Flintoff, and Steve Waugh, all of whom have supported Muralitharan publicly. It is claimed that Sir Donald Bradman also spoke very highly of Muralitharan. Not to mention, Asian greats like Sunil Gavaskar, Wasim Akram, Imran Khan and others have always stood behind him.
An extensive ICC study, the results of which were released in November 2004, was conducted to investigate the 'chucking issue'. A panel of former Test players, with the assistance of several biomechanical experts, revealed that 99% of all bowlers bent their arms when bowling. Only one player in the world (batsman Ramnaresh Sarwan) did not transgress the rules when tested. Muralitharan's off break and topspinner were deemed within the rules (2 to 5 degree straightening), but the doosra was still an area of concern. The flexion measured when bowling the doosra was not excessive, however, considering the amount of flexion in the actions of many other bowlers. The results of the study has led to the ICC issuing a guideline allowing for extensions or hyperextensions of up to 15 degrees thus deeming Muralitharan's doosra to be legal. [20]
This scientific evidence has gone a long way to convincing some of Muralitharan's former critics that his action is legal. Two vocal critics of Murilatharan's action were former Test cricketers: West Indian Michael Holding, a member of the ICC's Advisory Panel on Illegal Deliveries, and Australian Dean Jones. Holding had been quoted as being in "110% agreement" with Bedi regarding Muralitharan's action and Jones had said "by my interpretation, I think he throws it". Following the ICC study, Holding, a member of the panel that conducted the ICC study proclaimed, "The scientific evidence is overwhelming... When bowlers who to the naked eye look to have pure actions are thoroughly analysed with the sophisticated technology now in place, they are likely to be shown as straightening their arm by 11 and in some cases 12 degrees. Under a strict interpretation of the law, these players are breaking the rules. The game needs to deal with this reality and make its judgment as to how it accommodates this fact."[21]

[NewLou]

BAh!

There has been no greater impact bowler in the modern game greater than Shane Warne.

I'm fans of all the quicks ............. have seen them all bowl n terriorise batsmen. BUT no other bowler in the history of cricket has owned more batsmen or befuddled more top order batsman than Shane Warne.

Why elsedo you think his contemporaries suggest hes the greatest ever. To compare stats of spinners to the quicks just shows how easily numbers can be manipulated to champion a cause.

Dont you think its obvious that spinners by the nature of their art will be more expensive

Its raw wicket taking that matters n I bet we never see a quick take 700 wickets. Of course this a special number its never been done by a genuine bowler before to minimise its importance is like saying a hat trick aint special

[JDarvall]

.....wickets ?.....runs per wicket ? ....who cares,,,, how many women per test match is a far more interesting statistic

[Daddles]

In Bradman's day tests were longer and they bowled 8 ball overs. Any wonder he and his contemporaries scored so many runs. Anyway Bradman wasn't that great. He was in his prime when the player pool had been decimated by the 2nd war. It's one thing to achieve great milestones when surrounded by mediocrity - its another thing altogether to achieve personal greatness.
Warne's greatness has been earned by his on-field performances. He does deserve to be hung in the Long Room at Lords with the legends of the game. He will be sadly missed by cricket lovers and if his retirement allows him to reconcile with his honey and kids then good luck to him. I wish him well.

Sorry mate. This just blew your credibility and, I think, handed the debate to Midge. (which is a bugger because I tend to agree with your assessment of Warne )

Bradman was far and away the greatest ever. His records are even more remarkable when you consider the war and the conditions. No other player has had the impact that he has. Indeed, such was his impact that a very good English attack had to devise new tactics to defeat him, a move that led to a change in the rules (only Walter Lindrum of billiards has managed that feat).

Richard

[Shedhand]

Sorry mate. This just blew your credibility and, I think, handed the debate to Midge. (which is a bugger because I tend to agree with your assessment of Warne )

Bradman was far and away the greatest ever. His records are even more remarkable when you consider the war and the conditions. No other player has had the impact that he has. Indeed, such was his impact that a very good English attack had to devise new tactics to defeat him, a move that led to a change in the rules (only Walter Lindrum of billiards has managed that feat).

Richard

but hang on. We're comparing a bowler and a batsman!! Apples and oranges. Bradman had an impact on the game, no argument there. Warne's impact on the game has been just as important. Leg Spinning was a dead if not dying art before he came along. I remember watching test cricket as a youngster and how damn boring is was to watch 2 spinners operating at each end and the batsmen blocking, blocking and bloody blocking. It was just so boring. Then we had the years of shotgun bowlers, Thommo, Lillee, Pascoe, Big Bird and all the other quicks. That got boring too because batsmen couldn't score for trying to protect themselves death and mayhem. The along came Warnie. His style of leg spin actually enticed the batsmen to have a go. But, even the good ones got sucked in. Warne - the greatest BOWLER ever to grace a pitch and Bradman (reluctantly conceded) the greatest batsman to grace the pitch. And dickie Bird for best Umpie ever....

[Grunt]

Warne - the greatest BOWLER

You wouldn't be Victorian by any chance.

Lillie, Lillie, Lillie

[Daddles]

I agree with you about Warnie Shedhand - ya lost the fight when you downgraded Bradman (yes, I'm being picky )

The thing with Warne is that he took cricket away from pace and re-introduced spin. Maybe it was heading that way, but my recollection is that we had good spinners and they couldn't get a look in before Warne. He had the ability to make a new ball on a paceman's wicket spin like an old ball on a roll of toffee. But it wasn't just the amount of spin, others can do that, it was his cunning and probably his gamesmanship as well. Nah, he's a great bowler, the greatest spinner at least. And like many heros, the underside was tarnished.

So I intend to remember the bowler ... and I reckon that'll be a mighty pleasurable thing to do.

Richard

[Grunt]

So I intend to remember the bowler ... and I reckon that'll be a mighty pleasurable thing to do.

You won't be able to forget him, he'll be on Channel 9 every summer.

[Shedhand]

..anyway, I reckon we should all go down to the shed and make some shavings...and maybe a beer (its bloody hot here)..

[Lignum]

You won't be able to forget him, he'll be on Channel 9 every summer.

And thank god for that. The blokes recognised as having one of the greatest cricket minds of the modern era. Last night on a Warne discussion/tribute on the telly they said he was the "Greatest Captain" Australia never had. Ill drink to that.

[Shedhand]

You wouldn't be Victorian by any chance.

Lillie, Lillie, Lillie

Nope, perish the thought. :eek: ..Tassie born and bred - and no, my parents aren't blood relatives - (and Punter hasn't finished yet. He could end up being the greatest of them all - his peers are already saying that publicly)..

PS: I think its LILLEE.