+Buyers' expectations and sellers' obligations in multi-item sales of goods

My experience in the current sale of the goods on a buyer-collects basis from my workshop has impelled me to make the following observations and suggestions.

Some Forum members seem to entertain unrealistic expectations about a seller's obligation to give them the exclusive right to purchase an item, if they were the first to express interest in that item. In my view the seller has a right to sell to whomsoever he wishes, whether to a friend who expresses interest later, or to another Forum member who arrives with cash in hand or who undertakes to make an immediate direct deposit. Obviously, if the seller has expressly agreed to sell to a particular member, on the basis of an immediate direct deposit, the buyer has a right to expect that he will get the goods, once he has made the deposit.

If, however, the seller has merely told a potential buyer that he will let him know whether the item is still available, whilst, for instance, he finds out whether his friend wants the item, that potential buyer should have no expectation that the seller will necessarily sell to him, just because he was the first to enquire about the item. That potential buyer certainly has no grounds for accusing the seller of dishonesty, if the seller decides to sell to someone else.

I suggest that
1. Sellers should be allowed to temporarily have their messages boxes expanded, to enable them to better deal with a flood of expressions of interest; and that
2. The guidelines for multi-item sales should include a suggestion that sellers should make clear that the decision as to who has the right to purchase an item is the seller's alone, and that chronological priority in expression of interest is only one of the factors that the seller will take into consideration when deciding who to sell to; and that
3. The seller's decision, 'unfair' or not, is FINAL.

Rocker

My thoughts:

1. If a buyer has made an offer (or accepted the sale price) and the seller has accepted that, then to me that is binding (on both parties) and it would be unfair for either party to renege - although I guess there could be some circumstances that would allow it.

2. Expressing interest is not offering to buy. If you want to think about buying something then do it on your own time and don't ask the seller to hold an item, while you think.

3. If the above "rules" are followed, then the order someone expresses interest is irrelevant (because people don't "express interest", they accept to buy), but ideally this (accepting a buyers offer to buy) should be done on a first in, first served basis.

Vernon,

I agree; but the grey area arises when a buyer offers to buy, but the seller, for one reason or another, does not immediately agree to sell to that particular person, because, for instance, the seller's friend has expressed an interest but is still making up his mind, and the seller wishes, if possible, to sell to his friend, or if another buyer has agreed to buy, and then reneges, and meanwhile another buyer has appeared at the seller's property with cash in hand.

In my view, the seller is not obligated to sell to the buyer who was told that the seller would let him know later whether the item was still available, if meanwhile a cash buyer turns up. In this case the seller has done what he said he was going to do, since, in effect, the item is not still available.

Rocker

If I was selling on this forum I would leave the gear on display for a couple of weeks stating that the sale date is xx/xx/xx , the successful buyer would be the first to pay cash or transfer the money. If your friend wants first knock on an item don't advertise it this sale.
just a thought
les

Rocker,

You are not a "shop" and are not selling your items subject to any rules.

What you do with the items is up to you.

Rocker is a fair and honest man.

He did not put these goods up for the benefit of forum members, rather to sell his goods for his own reasons and to his benefit.

He could have put them on ebay and we may have all missed out.

I didn't see the add until a few days after it had been posted, which was lucky for many people as I would have jumped in my ute, driven to Rockers and bought most of the gear befor anyone else had a chance :D

Thanks for the opportunity to buy some of your gear Rocker, I think you did the sale well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by les88

If I was selling on this forum I would leave the gear on display for a couple of weeks stating that the sale date is xx/xx/xx , the successful buyer would be the first to pay cash or transfer the money. If your friend wants first knock on an item don't advertise it this sale.
just a thought
les

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Les,

At first sight, your suggestion is a good one; but I think that in practice the seller still needs to agree to sell to a particular person before that person deposits money to the seller's account, and communication problems would still ensure that disputes would arise as to who had first claim.
This is because a sale on the Forum is not like an auction, where all the buyers and the seller are present in the same place at the same time. On the Forum, significant delays occur in the communication process between buyers and the seller.

Rocker

I dont go along with think time, there is only a deal when there is a firm offer to buy, and the seller agrees to it. If there is a time limit to transfer funds then if you miss the dead line the item is back on the market.

Having something on hold is at the sellers discretion, and is more likely to be a waste of everyones time.

I'm in the same boat as Jack, only my loss is being in Victoria, Rockers goods were let go at very reasonable prices and the terms were set out at the start, it is very churlish of anyone to complain simply because they have trouble excepting clear instructions.

If I wanted to sell something I would list it here and on ebay, so that the interested parties determine the final purchaser and price.

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Originally Posted by johnc

I dont go along with think time, there is only a deal when there is a firm offer to buy, and the seller agrees to it. If there is a time limit to transfer funds then if you miss the dead line the item is back on the market.

Having something on hold is at the sellers discretion, and is more likely to be a waste of everyones time.

I'm in the same boat as Jack, only my loss is being in Victoria, Rockers goods were let go at very reasonable prices and the terms were set out at the start, it is very churlish of anyone to complain simply because they have trouble excepting clear instructions.

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Johnc,

I don't think anyone was complaining about the buyer-collects condition. Complaints arose because, in some cases, I put buyers on hold, without agreeing to sell to them, and subsequently decided to sell to someone else who had travelled to my place with cash in hand.

Rocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by echnidna

If I wanted to sell something I would list it here and on ebay, so that the interested parties determine the final purchaser and price.

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Bob,

I wanted to ensure that Forum members, rather than the general public, received first pick of my goods.

Rocker

I just think some people have unrealistic expectations in general and it's not worth wasting time or energy setting things up to make them happy or appease them. The 80/20 rule applies. 80% of the effort goes into making 20% of the people satisfied. Personally, in these situations, I choose to only make the first 20% of the effort and the high maintenance individuals can go elsewhere.

I bought some things from Rocker and I was very happy with the way I was treated.

I think that what Rocker has done is a real service to the woodworkers of south east Queensland. He made available for sale an entire range of quality woodworking tools at prices that he knew where below what he could get on ebay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocker

I put buyers on hold, without agreeing to sell to them, and subsequently decided to sell to someone else who had travelled to my place with cash in hand.

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That is the crux of the matter. If there is no agreement to sell, then no-one can complain.

On the same token, if the buyer says "I''ll take it, send me your details" and you send them (therefore agreeing to sell) and you subsequently sell it to someone else, then I think that is a bit rough (but it doesn't sound like this happened in Rockers instance). It's also a bit rough if the buyer then doesn't turn up (or transfer money) promptly or when arranged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocker

... the grey area arises when a buyer offers to buy, but the seller, for one reason or another, does not immediately agree to sell to that particular person, because, for instance, the seller's friend has expressed an interest but is still making up his mind...

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That is inequitable, ambiguous and contrary to the normal order of 'first in, first served'. If a potential buyer has the funds available and is prepared to buy, then stalling or rebuffing the sale on the grounds that someone (friend or not) has expressed an interest but is still making up their mind is unjust.

Had the buyer not had sufficient funds available or requested time to accumulate sufficient funds, then that would, in my mind, be the only recourse to offer the goods to another potential buyer (friend or otherwise).

However, at the end of the day, the seller ultimately has control over who they sell to - no matter how discriminatory. Starting a thread with the aim of absolving themselves of normal fair trading practice and laying out their trading protocol after the fact is a bit rich.

Howdy,
To me it's all about communication. I remember trying to buy a car from the trading post a few years ago and when I went to inspect the vehicle I found he had already sold it to another buyer. The inspection had been arranged a few days prior and I was quite annoyed as it had been an hour drive to go and look at it and now it was gone. He had my mobile number but had not bothered to let me know it was gone. Subsequest to that when I sold my car I made sure to get the contact details of everyone who said they wanted to come and have a look and I let them know it was gone when a sold it. Took a few phone calls but everyone was really appreciative of it.
Cheers
Mick

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That is inequitable, ambiguous and contrary to the normal order of 'first in, first served'. If a potential buyer has the funds available and is prepared to buy, then stalling or rebuffing the sale on the grounds that someone (friend or not) has expressed an interest but is still making up their mind is unjust.

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I disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say "my friend has shown an interest in it and I will give him first refusal but if he doesn't want it, it is yours". Anyone who tells me otherwise is welcome to shop elsewhere.

Of course, you then run the risk of the friend deciding he doesn't want it after all and then having the other potential buyers evaporate, but then you probably never had a firm sale in that case.

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Originally Posted by silentC

I disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say "my friend has shown an interest in it and I will give him first refusal but if he doesn't want it, it is yours".

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OK, I'll wear that.

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Originally Posted by Woodwould

Starting a thread with the aim of absolving themselves of normal fair trading practice and laying out their trading protocol after the fact is a bit rich.

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Woodwould,

I started this thread with the object of inviting comment from members, in order to establish what the general opinion is on protocols for selling through the Forum, so that, if the administrators deem it necessary, the guidelines for sellers can be amended, so that the sh*tstorm (Copyright K. Rudd) that erupted over my sale of goods can be prevented in future sales. I did not do so with the object of absolving myself from normal fair trading practice, since I believe that, as a non-commercial seller, I am not subject to the same legal or ethical requirements as a commercial business anyway.

Moreover, I do not believe that I have anything to apologise for, since I never agreed to sell to the people who now feel aggrieved that I did not sell to them. I simply put them on hold, and did not get back to them. As Kahlua Khan said, it is all about communication, and communication by PM with people who may be at work or otherwise engaged is an iffy business.

Rocker

I certainly agree that the issue is with communication in general. There seems to be a certain element of the Wild West in the forums when it comes to selling. Definitely not pointing my finger at Rocker.

I have had the experience here on WWF, where I have said I would purchase the goods, the seller agreed. On the morning I was due to pickup the goods he SMSd me saying that another forumite had showed up to buy an altnerative item, and also bought the one that had been committed to me.

I wasn't happy.

I still think that part of the problem is not having a probationary period before members can buy and sell, but I also think that stricter guidelines might help.

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Originally Posted by Wongdai

On the morning I was due to pickup the goods he SMSd me saying that another forumite had showed up to buy an altnerative item, and also bought the one that had been committed to me.

.

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You've gotta laugh, don't you? As Jerry Seinfeld once said: "People! They're the worst." :U

My policy is to expect nothing of other people and that way you can't be let down. I always assume that I will have to call to confirm things or chase the other person around or go out of my own way. That way when people actually do make a courtesy call or do something for you, it is a pleasant surprise.

I think the key word here is 'expectations'. Maybe what we have here is a problem in 'expectation management' as we call it in the business. Be clear and up front in your dealings and then people cannot criticise you if your actions don't conform to their expectations. But some people will always complain, no matter how plain you make it.

I certainly don't think it's the place of the forum to impose guidelines on how sale of items should be conducted, beyond how they should be listed etc. I for one would not want to put myself between a buyer/prospective buyer and a seller in that situation. Not for free anyway :)

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Originally Posted by silentC

My policy is to expect nothing of other people and that way you can't be let down. I always assume that I will have to call to confirm things or chase the other person around or go out of my own way. That way when people actually do make a courtesy call or do something for you, it is a pleasant surprise.

I think the key word here is 'expectations'. Maybe what we have here is a problem in 'expectation management' as we call it in the business. Be clear and up front in your dealings and then people cannot criticise you if your actions don't conform to their expectations. But some people will always complain, no matter how plain you make it.

I certainly don't think it's the place of the forum to impose guidelines on how sale of items should be conducted, beyond how they should be listed etc. I for one would not want to put myself between a buyer/prospective buyer and a seller in that situation. Not for free anyway :)

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I agree. The bottom line is that the onus is on the buyer and the seller to look after each other. For instance, there have been times when I've "won" items on ebay for far less than they were worth. On these occasions I've always given the seller the option of pulling out of the deal if he or she is not happy. In the end, with every transaction both the buyer and seller should part on good terms.

From what I've seen on the buy and sell section here, while the sellers generally behave quite well, the buyers start demanding rights that they wouldn't have elsewhere (i.e,., "I was first, ignore him", and "it's too expensive, sell it to me for half that" and so on).

I actually drop in there sometimes just to enjoy the theatre of it all.

Now that the dust has settled, I can comfortably and calmly admit I was involved in the issue at hand. I hope that I did not insult anyone (ie Rocker) with a PM I sent him asking for clarification, because that's not what I am about. If I did, I sincerely apologise and I hope that the apology is accepted.

What I did ask in my PM to him was for just that - clarification, and I feel that the issue here isn't about the forum imposing rules or dictating how members run sales, but the issue and lesson to be learned is better communication.

I feel that a few simple words of explanation or similar disclaimer before things get out of hand may be the solution, and may be the lesson for us all next time.

An example:

There is someone interested in the (item), but should that fall through then you're next in line (pending sale elsewhere).

Take out the underlined and its a totally different meaning. My impression was that the sale had fallen through, and therefore the item would be offered to me. Perhaps thats my naive fault, but generally I take people at their word in these situations (if someone was offering me a sheepstation for free then I would be more circumspect perhaps).

I agree part of the issue in this situation is also the large number of items for sale and the popularity of the thread (courtesy of the seller's contribution to the forums and great reputation). It makes it very difficult to keep track of for the seller.

Furthermore in many threads with items for sale, it evolves over days, not hours, has few responses, and as such first in first served is the only way to move the item on. I have bought several items this way from the forums without any problems, but the enormous response meant this sale was a very different beast from average.

Finally, in regards to buyers committing and then not following through - I agree that its a hassle that is frustrating and deflating. Unless there is a rating system (ie feedback scoring etc as per a popular auction website) or public naming and shaming, then good old trust and faith in people is what is needed. I don't think the aforementioned solutions are in the spirit of these forums. Those that have and will continue to do this tarnish the experience for the majority.

This is just my perspective on what happened, and more importantly how it can hopefully be avoided in the future, and an apology to Rocker. Good luck with the remainder for sale!

Thanks
Nick

Nick,

You have nothing to apologise about. There was a misunderstanding that is now resolved, and we can both move on. As several people have pointed out, our difficulty has been that buyers and I have been struggling to communicate with one another using an imperfect mode of communication - the Forum's private messaging system. The lags invoved in this mode of communication almost inevitably lead to misunderstandings.

Perhaps sellers should post their phone number on the list of items for sale, when those items are numerous, and likely to generate a large number of responses, so that potential buyers can get instant feedback about the status of the item they are interested in.

Rocker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nick_b00

Now that the dust has settled, I can comfortably and calmly admit I was involved in the issue at hand. I hope that I did not insult anyone (ie Rocker) with a PM I sent him asking for clarification, because that's not what I am about. If I did, I sincerely apologise and I hope that the apology is accepted.

What I did ask in my PM to him was for just that - clarification, and I feel that the issue here isn't about the forum imposing rules or dictating how members run sales, but the issue and lesson to be learned is better communication.

I feel that a few simple words of explanation or similar disclaimer before things get out of hand may be the solution, and may be the lesson for us all next time.

An example:

There is someone interested in the (item), but should that fall through then you're next in line (pending sale elsewhere).

Take out the underlined and its a totally different meaning. My impression was that the sale had fallen through, and therefore the item would be offered to me. Perhaps thats my naive fault, but generally I take people at their word in these situations (if someone was offering me a sheepstation for free then I would be more circumspect perhaps).

I agree part of the issue in this situation is also the large number of items for sale and the popularity of the thread (courtesy of the seller's contribution to the forums and great reputation). It makes it very difficult to keep track of for the seller.

Furthermore in many threads with items for sale, it evolves over days, not hours, has few responses, and as such first in first served is the only way to move the item on. I have bought several items this way from the forums without any problems, but the enormous response meant this sale was a very different beast from average.

Finally, in regards to buyers committing and then not following through - I agree that its a hassle that is frustrating and deflating. Unless there is a rating system (ie feedback scoring etc as per a popular auction website) or public naming and shaming, then good old trust and faith in people is what is needed. I don't think the aforementioned solutions are in the spirit of these forums. Those that have and will continue to do this tarnish the experience for the majority.

This is just my perspective on what happened, and more importantly how it can hopefully be avoided in the future, and an apology to Rocker. Good luck with the remainder for sale!

Thanks
Nick

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good to see rocker got an apology, forget the pasting i recieved

My 2 bobs worth on this is

Are the goods for sale or not.

If they are for sale then the first in with the money be it cash or direct debit then it is theirs.

If the goods are not for sale pending a decision from a mate then dont advertise them - simple really if you put them in the buiy swap sell area then they are for sale so the first in with the money gets them.

If you are waiting for a mate to make his mind up dont put the thread in until you have an answer.

What do you want your cake and eat it too - offer it for sale and if you get no offers hope your mate takes it or if you do get offers that helps you put pressure on your mate to hurry up and make up his mind.

I have no problem with the way you ran your sale Rocker (in fact i defended you on that thread) BUT this forum is not here to take members good nature and abuse it to your own advantage by pressuring a mate to make a decision. Give us some credit for being around long enough to realise what is going on. I think most of us have had enough dealings with the commercial reality of life that we can tell when we are being used.

Like i said my 2 bobs worth - probably 50 cents now with inflation

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Rocker

............................Perhaps sellers should post their phone number on the list of items for sale, .................

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I think the best/safest method of placing phone numbers , address's etc on the forum is in your Public Profile that way only Members have access to it.

There is not certainty that Members are all trustworthy either but they are the people you wish to deal with when you advertise on this forum.

Cheers