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Okay I wanna build a 12x6 timber framed shed (eventually.)
What kind of sizes and amount of timber would be needed for the frame?
How hard will it be / how much will it cost to get an engineer to approve the design?
I can get hardwood (eucalypts) from work for decent prices, or cypress from in town for (most likely) alot more. Termites aren't rampant around here but they do exist.
Cheers,
Andrew
Hello Andrew,
Are you talking about building a 6X12 metre shed? That's pretty big.
Are you building on a slab?
You need to draw up a basic design, then you can take that to a drafting consultant to work it into plans suitable for council. The consultant should also be able to organise any engineering approvals.
The hassle and the expense of all of this is why we tend to buy pre-fab steel sheds like Titan and so on. When they supply a shed they also give you all of the plans and specs you need for council approval. You are more than capable of erecting a prefab metal shed.
By the way. Those quiet and invisible termites in your area will become rampant whenever you provide food for them. Place a lump of dry timber in your back yard and watch it disappear. :D
Hi last weeks KFC,
You shouldn't need an engineer if ur in Qld but I believe u will need plans drawn by a Building Designer if the structure is higher than 2.4m & more than 10m2. (u talking metres or feet?) should be someone on here that can sort u out with plans when u need them, if not PM me & eye'l help get ewe sorted.
Cheers,
Paul
Theres various types of timber framed sheds.
Stud walls like a house.
Pole frame (often metal clad)
My shed will be about 12.6 x 6 when I get round to it.
Been distracted by a few unavoidable things.
Weatherboards over stud walls, coupled rafters with collar ties and NO trusses
all designed from timber span tables so I won't need to use nor pay for an engineer.
Wall plates 90 x 45 pine
Studs 90 x 35 at 600mm centres
Rafters 200x50 F7 oregon (I've already scrounged them)
Roof/ceiling battens 70 x 45 or 90 x 45.
I'll use concrete stumps, not a slab foundation. I'll put a concrete floor in after the stumps are in. After the sheds built I'll drop a floating floor over the slab.
I'm considering treated pine for wall framing
Narrow windows under the eaves all around to let light in but not the direct sun.
Very inclined to fit ceilings/sarking & insulation.
ps you're welcome to a copy of my plans (though they are not finished yet ).
There u go, you can use someone elses plans then get your own site plan drawn.
Some good info and offers of help here my feathered friend.
The idea of building on concrete stumps and putting the slab in later (Echidna) will help to spread your spending spree out of a longer time.
We are all awaiting the call to a working bee and, therefore, your mother's fine cooking.:D:D:p
While treated pine is appealing to me the wombat saw mill has opened other timber opportunities and the wall frames might end up being made from home sawn macrocarpra. I've got a few logs in the backyard and access to many more logs if I want them.
I used to have a timber grading lisence many years ago but the system changed so it's gone. But as I recall ungraded timber is regarded as F4 so I'll just use F4 span tables.
I have designed to class 1 standard not to outbuilding standards just to ensure a little flexibility if I ever need to convert it from a shed to another use.
As Artme noted putting a slab in later gives you an immediate workshop.
Bah, it's tinyQuote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
I'll test thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
Ta:2tsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by snapman007
Sounds good, I was thinking of a cottage look. So weatherboard outside, stud walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
Can I borrow those plans:-
What's the argument about rafters vs trusses?
Rafters come out of span tables whereas trusses have to be designed by a qualified engineer.
But you could do coupled rafters as a truss like assembly.
I'll try and whack a pdf on here.
Note the collar ties need to be 1/3rd of total roof height above the top plate.
The drawing in the pdf is vector format so you can print out at any scale you want (if you have a printer big enough)
Its only a rough drawing at this stage and I didn't have span tables when I drew it so some revision is necessary.
I'm thinking of eliminating the drawn windows in favor of clear polycarb ones between the rafters and having a narrow eaves. This will admit indirect light in around the top of both side walls without losing the wall area of standard windows. This means that instead of solid blocking between the rafters they will need to be strutted herringbone style to prevent the rafters racking.
With this design which is a cathedral ceiling with collar ties a ceiling can be fitted on top of the rafters and under the roof/ceiling purlins (ie battens in this instance)
I've worked out a price on F17 Hardwood, from the bottom up:
- Posts 150x150x1500 x 15 $867
- Bearers 125x75x3000 x 12 $538
- Floor Joists 125x50x3000 x 48 $1437
- Flooring 100x25x12000 x 30 $1137
- Wall Plates 100x50x36000 x 2 $478
- Studs 100x38x2.4x 60 $727
- Weatherboards $4032
- Rafters 150x50x4000 x 40 $1915
- Ceiling Joists 150x50x6000 x20 $1436
- Ridge Board 150x50x12000 x 1 $143
- Battens 75x38x12000 x 12 $492
$13247 in total. Yikes!
Plus $1600 for Zincalume roof. $14847 all up.
The biggest cost is Weatherboards, solution: Have the shed clad in Zincalume for $600 or so.
Another big cost is ceiling joists. Can I just have shorter collar ties instead?
Rafters are a big cost. I worked out the price with 600mm spacing, can I use 900mm?
Instead of 100mm wide wall plates and studs I can use 75mm wide, correct? That'll save me $376
If I choose the cheapest options the total will be $8844
What size and span can collar ties be?
where are you getting your timber from?
The weatherboards are more than double bunnings price for new baltic
Without going into span tables and checking things out.
You could use anything from F5 up, F17 is over the top, which is why its high priced.
75 x 38 should be ok for studs and plates if there is a stud directly under each rafter though I like to double my plates as you can get very straight walls with doubled plates.
150 x 50 rafters should be ok at 900 cts maybe even at 1200 cts perhaps even 1800 cts with F17.
An unstrutted ridge board needs to be a minimum 25 wider than your rafters but it can be 25 thick, so you need 175 x 25 for ridge board
You don't need ceiling joists unless you want a low flat ceiling.
You can put a ceiling on top of the rafters cathedral ceiling style.
For coupled rafters with an unstrutted ridge and no underpurlins you will need a collar tie on every set of rafters. 75 x 50 up to 4.2 span, 100 x 50 over 4,2 span.
Hey Funky,
Sounds like an ambitious project you are undertaking :) But it'll be a good shed once you've finished it. Just thought I'd put across some of my thoughts as I'm in Queensland as well & working in the building industry.
Are you planning to build this yourself mate? From what I gathered you are - any new construction work over the value of $1100 needs to be licensed. Easiest way would be to use someone's builders number - hard bit is finding someone willing to do so. Dunno if you or someone you know is licensed, just thought I'd bring it up.
For overall costs, I reckon there'd be a few more areas to look at. I know you've costed the bulk of the timber and framing materials, but there is also plenty of other costs involved. For example:
- Machine for post holes (would be a dog digging these by hand)
- Concrete for posts
- Fixings - plenty of these....things like bolts for framing, nails for cladding, roof screws, etc
- Windows
- Access doors
- Electrical (power points, lights, etc)
- Couldn't see anything about internal linings - are you doing that or just leaving exposed frame?
- Drafting fees
- Council fees
- Licensing/BSA fees
- Painting (assuming you'll paint the outside)
- steps up to floor (anything 190mm above natural ground level will require additional steps)
That's a couple of areas off the top of my head that you'll need to look at to get an idea of total cost of the shed.
I'll second what Echnidna about the weatherboard cladding - where are you getting that pricing from? I did a roughie calculation based on using Hardiplank cladding and was about $1500 for the whole shed. Hey about what about something like yellow tongue sheeting for your floor? Would be something like $400-500 instead of $1137 for your hardwood.
Also, make sure that the timber you get is appropriately termite treated as required by BCA & Australian Standards. That is H4 treated for your stumps in the ground, then H2 & H3 treated for the rest of your structural members. Though there are a whole swag of naturally resistant timbers listed in Appendix C of AS3660.1 so if you used them you'll probably be right.
Anyway, just a couple of points to ponder on.
Cheers,
WILL
i think you should shop around for better prices.
• Posts 150x150x1500 x 15 = 22.5m @ 46.50 = $1046.25
• Bearers 125x75x3000 x 12 = 36m @ 12.75 = $459
• Floor Joists 125x50x3000 x 48 = 144m @ 7.50 = $1080
• Flooring 100x25x12000 x 30 = 360m @ 2.75 = $990
• Wall Plates 100x50x36000 x 2 = 72m @ 5.50 = $412.50
• Studs 100x38x2.4x 60 =144m @ 5.25 = $756
• Weatherboards 36 m x 19 = 684m @ 4.68= $3201.12 $3734.64
• Rafters 150x50x4000 x 40 = 160m @ 9.25 = $1480
• Ceiling Joists 150x50x6000 x20 =120m @ 9.25 = $1110
• Ridge Board 150x50x12000 x 1 = 12m @ 9.25 = $111
• Battens 75x38x12000 x 12 =144m @ 4 = $576
• Timber: $11755.39
Colourbond staret profile
15 x 9m = 135m @10.75 = $1451.25
Total: $13206.64
i just saved you over 2 grand
All the timber is coming from the sawmill where I work. We are the cheapest around and we've proved it. The weather boards are $7 a metre
At work we have Fence Grade, Building Grade and Select Grade. Anything that falls into building grade gets called F17. It's not definite F17Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
Yep I'll be building it myself with the help of Dad and any forum members who wish to help out:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by jackliveshere
Hmm...I just met a builder, name's Jack and he lives in Townsville. Maybe I can use his builders number:think:
Hardiplank isn't the look I want, same for the yellow tongue floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackliveshere
If I use the timbers on the list do I still have to treat them?
And where did you get those prices from?Quote:
Originally Posted by weisyboy
thats what i see hardwood for and what most other mills charge when u get out of brisbane.
you can easily get 175mm x 25mm x 6mm wheatherboards under $5.
all hardwood must be graded and structural grade must be graded to AS2082. you cant just have construction grade and call it F17 it must be graded and sold in each grade unless you are selling ungraded timber. structural hardwood can grade anyware from F5 to F34 depending on species.
you can get a list of timbers with there class listed i did have it but i cant find it at present anyone know witch one it is?
your work should have it.
I forgot to add the bulk discount 5% or so, plus employee discount (whatever the boss gives me)
Where exactly Carl?
those prices are my list prices. no discounts.
sawmills with similar pricing well muckets sawmill at ladely for one.
I'd like a copy of those price lists
i can send u my price list and give muckets a call for theres and theyl fax it to u.
According to "Barry's introduction to construction of buildings" Collar roofs (rooves?) can be a maximum span of 4.5m. Slight problem there
What about using some recycled timber? Caylamax at Brendale has decent stock, its docked, denailed and sorted, and they have decent quantities. If you email them the list you put together they'll tell you what they've got and give you a price.
Couple of points FC.
# Don't think 900 instead of 600 spacings is wise or allowable.
# Appreciate your desire for aesthetic appeal but you also need to be practical.Yellow tongue for the flooring is a great idea and is much less time consuming to put down.
# Recycled timber may be a possibility but you will need to carefully check costs and whether the codes and authorities allow its use. Remember that it is also much harder and you would have to use a nail gun - actually a good idea anyway.
# If you decided to go with colourbond cladding you would then have to insulate, although you might want to do that anyway.
I've looked through span tables and have revised my list
- Posts 100x100 $469
- Bearers 200x75 $887
- Joists 125x50 $1194
- Plates 100x75 $818
- Studs 100x38 $864
- Door Lintel 100x50 $6
- Window Lintels 125x50 $12 each
- Double Door Lintel 150x50 $12
- Rafters 125x38 $560
- Collar Ties 100x38 $192
- Ridgeboard 175x25 $72
- Flooring 100x25 $2160
- Weather Beards 175x25 $3192
$4744 for the frame
$6904 inc. Floor
$10096 inc. Weather beards
15 posts in a 5x3 configuration
3 bearers running across 5 posts each
Joists and Studs at 600mm centres
Rafters at 1200mm centres
If the following is correct:
Where rafters or trusses are supported directly over studs, the top plate may be the same size as the common studs in the same wall.
Then the top plate can be 100x38, coming to a total of $172 instead of $409
And if the following is correct:
Where wall studs are directly in line with the floor joists, the bottom plate may be 75x38.
Then the bottom plate can be 100x38 (correct?) and will save me another $237
I'm happy with $4744 for the frame, I just need to find cheap flooring and cheap weather beards. Recycled flooring is fine, I'll have a look at the timber recyclers in town.
If I can get the weather beards for $2000 then I'll be all smiles
Note: The updated prices are bulk price, the previous ones were retail price.
I worked out the weatherboard price taking into account there'll be no boards over the windows and doors.
remember you will have to order more wheatherboards than u need as you will have ofcuts thet are not long enough to use.
same goes for teh framing timber unless u get it all in exactyl the right length and make sure you make no mistakes you will have to order slightly over length and extra peices.
a cheeper way to do it is to get some logs and get tehm cut you will come in under half the cost. logs are not hard to find especialy if you offer a bit of cash or firewood.
I understand that is NOT an Australian book.Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychicken
The Europeans and Yanks have snow roof loads to contend with so their methods and spans do not apply to australia
Don't use a non aussie book.
Collar ties must be installed in the centre third of the rafter span.
Thickness to be same as the common rafters.
Min size 100 x 38 or 75 x 50 are stipulated for collar tie spans up to 4200
and 125 x 38 or 100 x 50 over 4200 collar tie span.
So a 4200 collar tie span with the tie placed at limit of the lower third of span means the total combined roof span is 6300mm.
Have a look at this pdf
From the Timber Development Assoc Of S.A.
Note the Oz standards apply nationwide.
Generally the variables are windloads, snow loads if in the southern alps etc.
But the same basic plans apply Oz wide.
Btw, carports, pergolas and garages may use smaller sections than houses, but I usually use the house framing tables.
So I've got the frame settled, I need to find cheaper flooring and weatherboards.
Then what do I do? I suppose I'll have to go through council, can someone explain what needs to be done there?
so ya want cheep wheatherboards ay:;
and what type of flooring t&g or hust plain boards.
Go and get it checked by a structural engineer. The wind loads in Qld are different to other states, especially on the escarpment of the mountain range at Towoomba. Check the building/construction requirements of you local council also, you may not think it is a big shed, but by council stardards it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychicken
I wouldn't trust weatherbeards from Carl..
Rough sawn 25mm thick flooring. I can dress and T&G it myself if I want
I'll have to get the whole thing checked by an engineer before I do anything.
Where I am in Meringandan I'm pretty much at the flat bottom of a valley, I'm not on top of hill or anything.
I've worked out the Wind Loading to be W36N or there abouts, but I'll check with the relevant people. The timber sizes I worked out are for W33N-W41N
wheatherboards are weatherboards. they still have to comply with standards.:2tsup:
Still don't trust them:D
I called Muckets today and they'll charge me:
$5.25pm for weatherboards
$2.75pm for the 100x25
Things I need to do:
- Find cheap source of weatherboards and flooring
- Get plans drawn up
- Go to council
- Learn how to grade timber properly
- Do an owner builder course at Tafe
- Buy the timber
- Leave it for a while to let it season a bit
- Build the thing!
Sounds simple enough
1. muckets quoted me 4.68 for 175m wheatherboards or 5.45 for special length.
2. you have to be licenced to grade timber.
Hey Funky,Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychicken
now that you've done yourself a rough budget and know what it's going to cost and more importantly know that you can afford it, I'd be putting your steps in this order:
1. Find a decent professional draftsman to provide complete drawings for your workshop. They will be able to nominate required timber sizes & gradings and be able to check everything to standard design tables
2. Do you owner builder's course - if this is the path you are taking for certification, you should get onto this pretty quickly
3. Shop your drafted plans around and get accurate quantities and prices for ALL your materials, not just timber, everything. This way you know the final cost of the project - remember, there are always little costs here and there that crop up and need to be allowed for
4. Apply for your owner builder's BSA permit - http://www.bsa.qld.gov.au/HomeOwners...orAPermit.aspx
5. Submit your plans to council - they will not certify your plans until there is a registered builder or an owner builder permit attached to your submission. Also, I'd check in the Toowoomba area for private certifiers; they are often much quicker and less useless then councils.
6. Once certified, buy all your materials and get moving :) Unless of course as you mentioned the timber you bought needs seasoning. Personally, I'd be buying timber that is ready to go straight away, that way there's no stuffing around and you can just get straight into it
7. Move into your nice new workshop and pull out some wicked woodworking pieces :2tsup:
Cheers,
WILL
Before you do any thing talk to the council , specially the town planners.
You might have trouble with a big shed on bearers and stumps.
They may take the view you may intend to use it for an undisclosed purpose such as a residential building or a commercial factory etc.
Putting heaps of house type windows in it may aggravate the situation.
You can't claim it will be a garage to house your car and ute and boat etc coz of the framed floor.
So talk to the planners first and find out what is acceptable to them.
Take a pencil sketch just to give them an idea of what you want.
You might even find the planning scheme online, if so see if you can understand it.
Yes I second that.Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
Funky just wondering, why don't you just slap a concrete slab down and get a steel shed kit erected?? Sounds much quicker and easier to me :)
Cheers,
WILL