Australia-environmentally friendly or not

in the renovations forum roof painting went off on a bit of a tangent (thanks to me :D ) over whether Australia has a reputation for being a bit on the environmentally unfriendly side. The trigger was a poster who is planning on painting his roof a dark colour event though it will up his cooling bills ( but it will keep his wife happy ). I was suprised when I arrived here at how wasteful people are in Melbourne with water, at the huge cars and the poorly insulated homes.

now I wait for the flames :D

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Originally Posted by jackiew

now I wait for the flames :D

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Sorry, cant afford to waste energy on flames.

Al :)

How much difference to the cooling costs do you think a dark coloured roof really makes ? Stuff all if you are using evaporative cooling - as he is, because that system works on keeping air flowing through the house, not keeping it at a predetermined temperature like air conditioning does.

I have a dark green roof, plus evaporative cooling, and it rarely goes on more than half speed.

Like Ozwinner, I too drive a lovely 4.7 litre gas guzzling V8 and love it. :D

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Originally Posted by kenmil

Like Ozwinner, I too drive a lovely 4.7 litre gas guzzling V8 and love it. :D

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Thats a girls engine, mine is 5.4 litre
I too have evap air, and it rarely gets turned up more than 10%, seems to be more efficiant than the cold type.

Gota go, and burn me a forest, Al

There's an old saying
"too much horsepower is barely enough"

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Originally Posted by jackiew

in the renovations forum roof painting went off on a bit of a tangent (thanks to me :D ) over whether Australia has a reputation for being a bit on the environmentally unfriendly side. The trigger was a poster who is planning on painting his roof a dark colour event though it will up his cooling bills ( but it will keep his wife happy ). I was suprised when I arrived here at how wasteful people are in Melbourne with water, at the huge cars and the poorly insulated homes.

now I wait for the flames :D

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Jackiew.. you disappoint me!! where is all your greenie whinging about burning of fossil fuel?? (look where I am from.. and what I do for a surviving!) :p ;) :D

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

Thats a girls engine, mine is 5.4 litre
Al

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Yes, but that would be a Ford, so it doesn't count. :D

C'mon luv, this country is soooooo big, when this little bit of it gets a bit dirty, well just move to another. :D

I say bring on the big motors.

My car motor can be found here....... :eek:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Anyone slightly mechanical will love it, I promise. :D

Ben.

Ps. JackieW, I think that $ are more important than the enviro-thingie to most people. :(

Jackie,

There were a couple of observations I wanted to make. The first was that the Daily Telegraph is a tabloid so you can't really compare it to the Age, the Australian, or the Age's sister paper in NSW - the Sydney Morning Herald ;)

Nevertheless, the other observation was that the article didn't really mention Australia as having a bad reputation in relation to green house gas emissions but was more of a dig at the pandering to the US of A that goes on. Of that, we (or should I say our elected government) are truly guilty.

I read up a bit on it and yes, we are at the bad end of the scale when you look at emissions per capita. Those stats are worked out by estimating the emissions of industry, transportation, farming etc. and dividing by the population. They're a guide but not definitive. They're also slanted against us because we are quite heavily industrialised for the size of our population. When you look at some of the other countries such as China, their per capita figures are much lower than ours but multiply it out by the size of their population and the problem there is or will be much bigger than it is here.

Your experiences in Melbourne are annecdotal evidence that there is a problem here and a lot of people don't take it seriously. Step outside the cities though and you'll see a different story. For example, a lot of places simply don't have the water to waste. We never wash our cars or water our lawns.

As a kid, we never had air conditioners or central heating or electric blankets. I grew up in a town a couple of hours north east of Melbourne and we survived the winters by putting on more clothes. It rarely gets hot enough to need an air conditioner down there. I only discovered those things when I moved to Sydney.

Returning to your original comment though, I guess you are telling us that we have this reputation 'overseas', ie. in the UK, and that from what you have seen in Melbourne since you arrived, you believe this reputation to be deserved?

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Originally Posted by silentC

................ I guess you are telling us that we have this reputation 'overseas', ie. in the UK,...................

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From my readings of the Dutch newspapers I have to say that we have that same reputation over there. Our government refusal to ratify the Kyoto agreement on greenhouse gasses rankles many.

If through the effects of the hole in the ozone layer the sea level rises 300mm the effect on our country would be minimal but 75% of the Netherlands will be underwater with the next king flood tide. Denmark, northern half of Belgium and substantial parts of Germany would also disappear. I doubt if the Riviera and the northern parts of Italy would also survive.

This is constantly in the minds of European leaders and there is already a push by the the Greens in the EEC to ban trade with any country that refuses to deal with this issue and adhere to the agreement.

So maybe soon our country's hip pocket will be affected when they ban trade with us. Maybe then we will learn and our political leaders accept that they were stupid in being so obtuse. So Jackie I won't flame you I agree with you.

Peter.

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Originally Posted by silentC

I grew up in a town a couple of hours north east of Melbourne and we survived the winters by putting on more clothes.

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Hmmm sounds like we come from the same part of the world.


- Wood Borer

Born in Mirboo North, raised in Thorpdale and proud of it ;)

Sorry, got my directions wrong, that's South East :o

EARTH FIRST! :D We'll mine the rest of the planets later. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

This is constantly in the minds of European leaders and there is already a push by the Greens in the EEC to ban trade with any country that refuses to deal with this issue and adhere to the agreement.

So maybe soon our country's hip pocket will be affected when they ban trade with us. Maybe then we will learn and our political leaders accept that they were stupid in being so obtuse. So Jackie I won't flame you I agree with you.

Peter.

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There is currently NO conclusive link between CO2 levels in the atmosphere and climate change. All we really know about how the climate works is based on physics abstractions (models), not empirical evidence. The evidence about current climate behaviour is conflicting and therefore inconclusive. Forecasting outcomes on current data is also specious.

I agree that science has proven many links between economic activity and its impact on the environment (eg CFCs effect on ozone depletion and increased ultra violet radiation, leaded petrol and brain development in children, etc etc). I would personally like to lower use of fossil fuels if only to clean up the air we breath, but the best I could say about "global warming" or the "Greenhouse effect" is that it needs more research. Furthermore, Dr Stephen Schneider and his ilk are peddling fear, not knowledge. Policy makers are buying in to this because fear means votes.

Even if the Greenhouse effect IS real, Australia's contribution to global CO2 levels is negligible. The vast majority of CO2 output is estimated to come from the USA and China and other developing nations, which have no real targets under the Kyoto Protocol. I doubt the credibility of the EEC's threat to affect a ban on those two countries. I think the source of this recent threat is a "strange bed fellowship" between European farmers, manufacturers and greenies, with the first two looking for yet another excuse to bump up non-tariff protectionism to a whole new, dizzying level. Australia should be more worried trading bans from our Pacific trading partners...

Ahh..... BUT Andrew, why confuse such an emotive topic by actually considering the truth about the scientific facts and reality? :D

SilentC,

Sorry for showing you up on the directions - no I am not a navigation nazi!!

Euroa is where I came from years ago which is in the NE and a couple of hours from the Big Smoke where I now live.

Sounds like your current location is the best of the lot.

- Wood Borer

Wood Borer,

No problem at all. It's funny, as a kid I always had this idea that Melbourne was to the south, probably because we headed south first of all to get there. Even today, I still think it, even though I know it's not. :confused:

We have a bit of an environmental issue here at the moment that is causing a bit of a stir. The last couple of summers we've had this 'algal bloom' that has been choking the main beaches in red weed. It's been putting the tourists off a bit, which is causing no end of concern around here. The locals blame it on a sewerage outfall that pumps untreated sewerage into the bay. We've had scientists come and take samples and do tests and surveys. So far, no-one is willing to link the two.

To get the thread back on topic........sort of, theres another housing design feature that makes me shake my head in environmental disbelief.

I'm speaking of houses with no eaves.

At a colorbond roof farm/housing estate near you, you'll see these ridiculously deisgned shake'n'bake houses. I see them in Perth quite abit, Houses with a glass dominated west face in full sun with no eaves. Needless to say theres not a tree in sight. And it's just to squeeze in a few extra sqm of living space into the tiny block.

To have the Perth afternoon sun bearing down, unmitigated on an eaveless, glass dominated wall must driving the aircon bill through the blacktiled roof!

Sorry to hear about the algal bloom, interesting you brought up the topic here. It is a problem inland also with the blue/green algae.

We certainly know how to stuff up the environment and seem reluctant to do much about it if it could possibly upset the gods (shareholders, greedy business people and most politicians).

- Wood Borer

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Originally Posted by LineLefty

To get the thread back on topic........sort of, theres another housing design feature that makes me shake my head in environmental disbelief.

I'm speaking of houses with no eaves.

At a colorbond roof farm/housing estate near you, you'll see these ridiculously deisgned shake'n'bake houses. I see them in Perth quite abit, Houses with a glass dominated west face in full sun with no eaves. Needless to say theres not a tree in sight. And it's just to squeeze in a few extra sqm of living space into the tiny block.

To have the Perth afternoon sun bearing down, unmitigated on an eaveless, glass dominated wall must driving the aircon bill through the blacktiled roof!

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In Sydney we call them McMansions :)

At least in Perth they only cost $220K, In sydney ,you'd be looking at half a mil. And your grandkiddies can inherit the mortgage!

Jeez, tell me where I can buy a house in Sydney for as little as $500k, I'll take 2 :eek:

close to me they finished ( within the last year ) a whole load of serviced apartments. Windows to the south are mainly overshadowed by large horizontal extensions. Windows to the north and west have no external shading other than where some of the balconies on the higher floors overhang the lower floors. EVERY single apartment has an air conditioner. The windows are either awning windows ( notorious for poor air flow ) or sliding doors. Don't know about you but I'm not too keen on sleeping in a hotel room with the doors onto the balcony wide open. In summer the guests have no choice but to use the airconditioners. The building fills the block with minimal permeable surface ( and the flower beds that are there are above the car park ). There appears to be no provision for any kind of water recycling. There are no solar panels on the roof.

Also close to me VCAT have recently given approval for a development of 48 units. Hopefully it will never be built. I spent hours inspecting the plans. I think one of them has a bathroom with a window( extractor fans on/ lights on every time they are used ). Most of them have 2 bathrooms. All will have airconditioners. None of the apartments have any provision for any kind of air flow through. The majority of units will have such poor levels of access to natural daylight in living and kitchen areas that the residents will need the lights on even during the day. Despite being a large block of land the architect has chosen to have no external shading of west facing or north facing windows. There is nowhere to hang washing up outside ( tumble driers and extractor fans again ). There is minimal permeable area outside and the site slopes heavily towards neighbouring properties. There is no provision for water tanks however The landscaping of the internal courtyard ( which will be in shade most of the day) is full of "water features". The residents will face high electricity bills, noise from 48 airconditioners going full bore in summer ( to add to those on the serviced apartments round the corner ).

I know that in Victoria 5* energy efficiency is supposedly going to be required for new homes but to be honest when I see the houses that are being thrown up everywhere I really don't believe that this will be enforced.

As mentioned in another post I watch sprinkler systems operate in the rain. I see people hosing their gardens the day after it has rained. I see sprinkler systems which water the street as well as the flower beds.

I overhear people in Megamart rejecting the 5* refrigerator because it is $10 more expensive than the 2.5* refrigerator, never mind how much it will cost them to run it over the next 10 years. I walk round shopping centres where there are no recycling facilities in the food-hall. I see what my neighbours put in their recycling crates compared to the sizes of their families.

I watch a friend buy the v6 rather than the inline floor when he rarely drives on roads where you can go over 60kmph. In the UK the bigger your car the more tax you pay on it. In the UK 1600cc is a big car. And don't give me that guff about long distances here. The speed limit in victoria mostly maxes out at 100kmph, and 1600cc is more than big enough for that.

I don't pretend to be perfect ( anyone want to buy a GSF1200 suzuki ... bought in a moment of aberration having finally found a motorcycle dealer who was prepared to view me as a potential customer :( ) but I do at least try. And most of the Australians I meet here in Melbourne don't even do that as far as I can see.

The brits are ahead of you in taking the environment seriously. The germans are even further ahead ( i lived there for a while in 1996 ).

Call me Mr negative if you like. I always believe that the earth would not survive beyond 2050 or 2100. :( (So why do you have kids then? Well, I am hoping that I was wrong.). Seriously, we are killing ourselves. We are using our natural resources as they are unlimited. (fuel, paper, water, electricity, etc). More and more things are power driven. Talking toilets, electric rubbish bins, electric doors, electronic picture frames, heated tile floor, etc. It is ridiculous.

If you work in a big corporate company then you’ll know what I am talking about. People print almost everything when they have no intention to read it. Some guys here leave the tap on for 3 to 4 minutes just to wash their hands. Then use 4 – 5 paper towels to dry them. Every office building leaves the light on 24/7.

No I am not Mr self-righteous but I am just a little bit more sensible. I re-use paper from the recycle bin. My shower is usually 4 to 5 minutes long.

Our water level is in a record low. Try to ask people to go easy with it, fat chance.
:(

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Originally Posted by Ben from Vic.

C'mon luv, this country is soooooo big, when this little bit of it gets a bit dirty, well just move to another. :D

I say bring on the big motors.

My car motor can be found here....... :eek:

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Anyone slightly mechanical will love it, I promise. :D

Ben.

Ps. JackieW, I think that $ are more important than the enviro-thingie to most people. :(

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Cool
Where do I get me one???????????????????? :D

Al

Jackiew,

I agree with you - but there are good and bad sides of Australian culture on display here.

Good side: so far no flames, just a lot of gentle stirring,;) and the fact that people can post their points of view,and agree to disagree.

Bad side: as mentioned earlier - we (generally) have it too easy. Why do we drive V8's? - whether or not the GH Effect is real, air pollution certainly is.

Why do we continually expand our cities' sprawl onto some of our best farmland year after year after year?

Because we are a sleepy,reactionary culture that doesn't change unless motivated by greed or fear. How many people, when they leave high school, think about how where they will live will affect the environment?

How many of us think to buy a Vespa or similar rather than at least 9 tonnes of car to travel? (as you have mentioned below,oops!) :o

Why can't we think beyond the quarter acre block and realise that medium density housing would help allow for more frequent,more efficient public transport?

Why don't we think of building to moderate the climate, eg (just as with wood), work with nature rather than against it? (Airconditioning is a fine example of this).

Why don't we try to develop whole suburbs at a time, especially on brownfield sites where we try to integrate the existing housing into the new designs?

Why don't our houses have far more focus upon shaping roofing to catch the available rainfall?

We have 5-star houses being built, but what is being done to improve the other 98% of housing stock?

What about the number of commercial and office buildings?

Most of this is only for the top end of the market,too - many Aussies (IF they give it any thought) cannot afford to modify their housing to be more environmentally friendly....

Government can only do so much...it is up to us as individuals.

As for me, I think "small is beautiful" (living in Japan has had a strong influence! :D ) - and I know that I will suffer less living in a place with higher density than those commuting 40-50kms each day as the petrol price continues to climb in future....

More importantly, with what I save on transport and power bills, I can put towards actually buying assets in future.....

Message to BEN FROM VIC Thank you, that was very interesting. :eek:


Message to NDRU I love your work. You said it all and saved me the effort. ;)

Much as I enjoy my work there's a heap of other things I'd much rather do. Being environmentally friendly is also hip pocket friendly, meaning I don't need to work as hard or as long and can afford to go down to the river to paddle my canoe rather than go to work. Town water stops 2Ks back up the road so we're careful with our water, even though we have a bore we rarely need to use it as we make our rainwater last. During the drier times of the year we use the laundry grey water in the garden. We have a 6/3 flush toilet, water saver shower head, only use the washing machine with a full load and the dishwasher when full. Most light are fluro bulbs and the airconditioner rarely needs to be used as the house has verandahs on two sides, a garage on one and I'm in the process of building awnings for the two windows on the remaining side. The roof is wheat colorbond and is foil lined and the ceiling has fibreglass batts. I have a 2ndhand solar HWS that I still need to fit. In winter I burn wood scraps in the wood stove to warm the house and occasionally to cook on. There's a couple of 200L compost tumblers in progress which will take care of a lot of our waste. A lot of my timber has come from salvaged logs. Sure, we still run two vehicles (and at last count I have 11 small motors as well) but we're trying to minimise our personal impact on our environment. The scientists will continue to argue, the politicians will grandstand but in the meantime, what can you and I do to help our planet?

Mick