Right to die

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Weekend Australian

THEY were found in each other's arms, a married couple of 55 years nestled beneath blankets and a doona in the bedroom of their Victorian home.
Bernard Rolfe hugged his wife, Janetta, who lay facing him.
It could have been a picture of any elderly couple resting at home except for two tragic things.
A gas bottle was next to the bed and a short rubber hose connected to its valve had been run over Mr Rolfe's hip and under his arm. And a suicide note was found in the pair's dining room, where they would have shared countless breakfasts, lunches and dinners together.
"I am sick of the meals on wheels, and other food cooked, they are tasteless and Janetta cannot eat them," the note read. "We don't want to be parted or put in a home. Janetta told me tonight there is only one way out. We have had a long happy life together and need peace - Bernard."
The Rolfes were discovered early on November 17 last year when a community care worker smelled gas after going to visit them at their Inverloch home on Victoria's southeast coast.
After repeatedly knocking, the carer called the authorities. Firefighters and ambulance officers arrived and found the couple in their bedroom.
Mrs Rolfe, 84, was dead and Mr Rolfe, 80, was unconscious. Paramedics administered oxygen to Mr Rolfe, who regained consciousness and was rushed to hospital. In the ambulance, he told paramedics: "Leave me alone. Let me go."
Yesterday, almost a year after they were found, Mr Rolfe pleaded guilty in the Victorian Supreme Court to the manslaughter of his wife of 55 years. His defence lawyer, Mark Rochford, said the now 81-year-old was suffering from depression and helplessness at the time of the suicide pact.
He said Mrs Rolfe had significant health issues - including Alzheimer's disease and heart problems - and Mr Rolfe was struggling to cope but did not want his wife to go into respite care.
Mr Rochford said prosecutors accepted it was a genuine suicide pact entered into by both Mr and Mrs Rolfe.
"This is a tragic case, your honour, in all the circumstances. It's a matter that was driven out of depression and desire not to be separated from his wife of a significant period of time," he told the plea hearing. "He accepts now that he should not have committed the offence ... he didn't want his wife to suffer and that was his motivation at the time."
Mr Rochford urged judge Philip Cummins to sentence his client to a wholly suspended sentence.
But Justice Cummins said he had to be careful about the messages he sent to the community about "voluntary death". "Are there not always issues, even in a clear case like this, of margins being moved? Shouldn't the court be conscious of the dangers of marginalisation?" he said. "(There are) a whole lot of moral arguments about the dangers of euthanasia ... to people who perhaps aren't as moral as the accused.
"What happens to a very elderly person who says I am just a burden ... I have got no future. What does the law do about them? ... No matter how sad and tragic the case ... the law and the court should not go down the path of voluntary death." He bailed Mr Rolfe to reappear on November 28 to be sentenced.

---

What do you think?

It was in todays West Australian as well, brought tears to my eyes. The guys who found them must be really torn, they have stopped this bloke from killing himself but also stopped him from going with the LOHL as they had wished.

I think it is a personal choice and people who wish to should be able too. Far better than clogging up our court systems and hospital systems with people who tried but didn't mamage to pull it off or those are too sick to live any reasonable kind of life and would like to end it but are not allowed too.

Not much thought required, a tragic situation that did not end as it was meant to, cant imagine what the man is now going through (" He bailed Mr Rolfe to reappear on November 28 to be sentenced.) if there is any justice in this country it won't be a custodial sentence.
Regardless, what ever time he has left will be pretty miserable.
Jon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Burnsy

brought tears to my eyes. .

---

Me too, and that spooked SWMBO for a second. Hopefully he can find some peace soon.

Not trying to be argumentive but i agree with the judge.

This is a truely tragic case as some of the ones in the Northern territory were

but

Think about the King family in Melbourne where the son murdered his mother & Step father for their money.

If this was legalised then he would have paid crooked doctors to supply paperwork to allow him to get them put to sleep legally.

NO sorry but human nature is such that someone will always find a way to try to beat the system or have it work for them.

I do wish him well, hope he can find peace within and also hope the judge can give him a non custodial sentence

Cheers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calm

NO sorry but human nature is such that someone will always find a way to try to beat the system or have it work for them.

---

Problem is they already do. This is just yet another way that honest people must suffer because we are legistlating for the dishonest minority:~.

Its meant for all of us to die its how when and by what means that matters.

I recall debating Euthenasia at primary school & High school

No mention of this in the judges finding's, the lack of support by government, the funding cuts etc etc.

Watching someone go through years of suffering with or without drugs to help them survive is heart wrenching I saw my father with MS plus others in nursing homes.

My FIL recently his treatment, Dr's denial anything was wrong. Refused to rescind his drivers licence on medical grounds, shoved from pillar to post because no institution wanted to care for him not even the hospitals. Idiot Welfare workers who couldn't read the notes almost released him, a danger to his wife and family.

What a poor quality of life even worse if they are in a home where they should be in better care often suffering from even just dehydration.

Lack of care just money grabbing cooperate shysters that only want profits get funded by the same government that says its against the law to end suffering. They are running care facilities with under staffed under trained and uncaring personnel. Many of these places demand or expect famlies to still come into feed and shower and wash cloths etc. During my FIL's plight at a major Sydney hospital for 3 weeks the daughters had to bring his cloths home as the machines were broken and not repaired.

But hey a child minding facility goes bust and they already getting government funding get a further $22 million thrust at them to get them to the end of the year.:((

Of course we should not confuse a suicide pact, which this sadly was, with euthanasia.

Euthanasia is something entirely different, although the end result obviously is the same.

It is indeed sad that 2 old people are driven to do something like this, and even sadder that they didn't both succeed, I can't begin to imagine what this is has been and is going through.

I find it difficult to support either suicide or euthanasia. The problem is that nobody (NOBODY!) knows what really happens at the moment of death. Limited research under the topic of Life After Life (and books of similar title) seems inconclusive with respect to suicide vs natural death. True controlled research is too macabre to contemplate, and current neurological developments are in their infancy.

Until more is known - really known, faith is all we have, and natural death is preferred over voluntary. The judge has only two choices anyway: Condemned to death, or condemned to life. [Depends on jurisdiction, of course. But let's hope for some wisdom exercised.]

Joe

If you treated a cat or dog the way we are 'required' to treat our sick & elderly you would be pilloried in the press & then slung into jail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joe greiner

I find it difficult to support either suicide or euthanasia..............

---

So do I, but I spent more than six weeks in hospital watching my wife die a slow and painful death. If my convictions/morals/beliefs had allowed me to I would have administered a fatal dose of morphine.


As much as I can't support either suicide or euthanasia I'm not at all comfortable with the legal system making these moral judgements agaist those that wish it.

Mick

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

So do I, but I spent more than six weeks in hospital watching my wife die a slow and painful death. If my convictions/morals/beliefs had allowed me to I would have administered a fatal dose of morphine.


As much as I can't support either suicide or euthanasia I'm not at all comfortable with the legal system making these moral judgements agaist those that wish it.

Mick

---

I agree with you too, Mick. But without moral judgments, we have no legal system at all. We see some bizarre cases of Suicide by Police Officer, in which the "victim" delivers himself to execution in place, and a case a few years ago in Florida where a life-sentenced prisoner killed another prisoner to secure a death sentence. I telephoned the office of Governor Jeb Bush (W's brother, BTW) to protest the death warrant as equivalent to "early release" - without effect.

The medical community seems devoted to prevention of death by any means and costs, whatever pain ensues. For those in a final illness, better management of discomfort is needed.

Joe

When i read this i also cried, then got furious. The sick and elderly have few, if any, rights and this is just another example. Being allowed to die must be as fundamental human right as any other. I just dont understand the medical attitude that will not allow an ending, Its gonna happen anyway. Maybe these people are completely unresolved to their own mortality? cowardice? fear of being prosecuted by the medical ethics police? the desire to be a medical "hero" like on TV?

The larger "moral" argument is irrelevant here. A society is judged by how it treats its weakest, when they cant have their wishes then it is the same as facism.

When I go I just want to fall over in the street or go to bed and not wake up ,rather than endure the crap that nursing homes go through with you,watched FIL and MIL go this way, thats no quality of life.
FIL used to get woken up around 7am was showered, then allowed to go to breakfast in night attire,return to room,dressed ,lay down until morning tea shuffle out for a cuppa ,back to room,lay down till lunch,have lunch,lay down until tea,have tea, go to bed.
That isn't living thats existing!
This is repeated day after bloody day

There's another side to this. My FIL and MIL are in their 80's, and were both hospitalised recently. They were in the same hospital and were in such poor condition that the question was "which one is going to pass away first?"

As it happened, my MIL was the one. But the amazing thing is that once she passed away, it was as if a huge weight was lifted of my FIL's shoulders. He has since made a strong recovery and is now living with us.

I think that Mick will verify that watching loved ones suffer as they slowly die is enormously depressing. I know that my FIL's biggest complaint was that he couldn't do anything for his suffering wife. Maybe it isn't a good time for making big decisions?

I think the issue is when partners influence the decision for the other partner. If the decision is to end it all then their subconsious may be making the decision because they do not want to see their partner suffer anymore. The patient themselves may also wish to end it early to save their partner further grief.

If the decision is euthanasia then it must be made by the patient without influence from the other partner.

Doctors make decisions of life saving treatments based on the cost of the treatment, survival statistics, etc and if history proves them wrong are they to be held accountable? We are in an era where a lot more medical treatments and life extending medications are only available to the wealthy. To me withholding treatment is the same as accelerating the end so do we ignore these becuase it is a monetary issues?

The waters are muddy and I hope I never have to make the decision to turn off a life support system for a loved one.

My mother has a no resuscitate cant think what its called the proper name anyway arrangement with her doc and that’s also at the hospital ( as far as I know ) being if she can only be kept alive with tudes and artificial means then she doesn’t get it and they are only to make her comfortable and pain free which I think is a good idea
But I wonder if this old chap had that would they have let him go ? anyway as it looked like a crime scene
and also how far gone was he when they found him ?
seems strange to me that the gas only killed one and not both at the same rate because you would assume that they went to bed at their normal time and turned the gas on then
anyway just a couple of thoughts on it

She was sicker, I think.
It was a bit of a silly way to do it as it put all their neighbours at risk, but I imagine they thought there was no alternative.

I pray to God that something is available and legal when it is my time.

Quote:

---

Until more is known - really known, faith is all we have, and natural death is preferred over voluntary.

---

Trying to understand what you're suggesting here. It sounds suspiciously like you're saying that because we don't really know what happens after we die, we should take the safe option, which is to assume that because some religious groups insist that it's a sin to take your own life, that this should have some bearing upon whether euthanasia is allowable. I'd prefer to leave religion right out of these debates and I wish our politicians would do the same. If a person who is religious decides they want to take their own life, that should be between them and their 'god'. If they're not religious, then what right does a religious person have to judge them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentC

Trying to understand what you're suggesting here. It sounds suspiciously like you're saying that because we don't really know what happens after we die, we should take the safe option, which is to assume that because some religious groups insist that it's a sin to take your own life, that this should have some bearing upon whether euthanasia is allowable. I'd prefer to leave religion right out of these debates and I wish our politicians would do the same. If a person who is religious decides they want to take their own life, that should be between them and their 'god'. If they're not religious, then what right does a religious person have to judge them?

---

SilentC is spot on in my mind. We vote for the politicians and after every election have to abide by the result. Perhaps the politicians should consider any religious interest they have as the same as a pecuniary interest and abstain from voting if their beliefs affect the making of a logical decision.
Jim

What I meant is that natural death is preferred by me, for me. An individual's faith, or non-faith, should be sufficient to guide their decision to take their own life. Euthanasia is an entirely different matter, because the judgment is controlled by someone else. Advance directives can illuminate the decision, but in the absence thereof, I see no alternative except to err on the side of caution. Religion doesn't need to be included, and probably shouldn't be. I think we agree on that.

I'm of the current sentiment that religion(s) may be the worst thing that ever happened to God. And that opinion is a Work-in-Progress too.

Joe

can't disagree with much of what you say Joe.
Reminds me of the joke argument over the length of a piece of string. The rabbi stopped the argument by saying "at least you both agree it's a piece of string". The talking can't stop..
Jim

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentC

... I'd prefer to leave religion right out of these debates and I wish our politicians would do the same..

---

And lawyers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

... I spent more than six weeks in hospital watching my wife die a slow and painful death. If my convictions/morals/beliefs had allowed me to I would have administered a fatal dose of morphine..

---

I felt for you Mick, it was not long after my father died. He took 4 years to die after his second stroke, bed-ridden, no function down one side, had his intelligence, but no basics. I visitted as often as I could and each time he begged me to kill him, but i couldn't. He was a proud man and was recognized at the top of his profession throughout the world, he did not deserve to die the way he did.

Been there and it's no place where anyone should have to go.
Jim

Like Neil I've recently been there myself, to be honest if I'm ever in the position where there is no hope and all you have left is a few weeks of suffering and indignity, then you should be allowed to bring on the morphine and get it over and done with. I'm sick of the religious right, what I would like to see is more compassion and less barstadry from those who wish to impose a cruel morality on people who are at the end of there time on earth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by johnc

Like Neil I've recently been there myself, to be honest if I'm ever in the position where there is no hope and all you have left is a few weeks of suffering and indignity, then you should be allowed to bring on the morphine and get it over and done with. I'm sick of the religious right, what I would like to see is more compassion and less barstadry from those who wish to impose a cruel morality on people who are at the end of there time on earth.

---

Cruel morality sums it up.
Jim

He pleased guilty and got a 2 year sentence wholly suspended. Hope his life improves from here on out.

Ithink we are all morally "set up" as youngsters and for most in these forum I suggest that means there was astron religous copnonent in that "setting up", even if the family were not church attenders
Without being open to other standards or views of morality we are crippled by this upbringing when decisions are to be made. Not that another standard will necessarily make life easier. This confusion makes stories like this one alll the more poignant.

I watched my first wife die froma brain tumor. Not a pleasant experience. All I wanted was for it to be over for her and I spentsome time feeling guilty about that.

My own mother is 87 and her mind is more confused each week. She wants to be with dad, but is always pleased to see us and loves my globetrotter´s reports.

LOML´s mother is an unwell 83 and is confined to bed. While here I talk with her every day but she becomes confused and rambles.

Would I have acted to end the life of my first life and would I do it for the two current cases? Certainly not. And why not? Because I am just as confused as I was About 25 years ago.

Perhaps it´s better if I remain confused.