English language

I am constantly apalled by the lack of understanding betwixt the words your and you're

YOUR means belonging to somebody.

YOU'RE is a contraction of the words 'you are'.

It isn't that difficult.
Your = belonging to

you're = you are

get it right please

Many posts to this Board have spelling and/or grammatical errors, which sometimes make them a tad difficult to read. This is because a lot of us are woodies and ordinary people not language professors.

I would rather read a post with spelling errors and gain some knowledge than a perfectly written epistle that waffles on without any substance.

My dear Bob, if you are going to be the self appointed English language Nazi then please make sure you get your OWN spelling right.

You may be apalled but the word is APPALLED. So please get it right.



Peter. ( Who occasionally makes spelling mistakes.)

:)That was an appalling typo rather than a spelling error; comes from trying to get my old eyes to read the tiny font in the text boxes on the BBS

I totally agree about the content of the message rather than the spelling but I must insist that from now on all documents are put through a spelling checker. This will assure the continuing purity of the German English language.

Sieg Heil

What ya talk'n bout?

How Confusing is the English Language?

We'll begin with a box, and the plural is boxes;
but the plural of ox became oxen not oxes.

One fowl is a goose, but two are called geese,
yet the plural of moose should never be meese.

You may find a lone mouse or a nest full of mice;
yet the plural of house is houses, not hice.

If the plural of man is always called men,
why shouldn't the plural of pan be called pen?

If I spoke of my foot and show you my feet,
and I give you a boot, would a pair be called beet?

If one is a tooth and a whole set are teeth,
why shouldn't the plural of booth be called beeth?

Then one may be that, and three would be those,
yet hat in the plural would never be hose,
and the plural of cat is cats, not cose.

We speak of a brother and also of brethren,
but though we say mother, we never say methren.

Then the masculine pronouns are he, his and him,
but imagine the feminine, she, shis and shim.


Glenn

Hey, there is nuffink wrong wif me gramma, apart from her being dead that is.
Yous need to get youre owd speeling fixded firsxt, yous do.
Typo, smypo, yous should spend mor timn in da shed.

I often wonder what people think about the spelling or grama errors that come out in my posts, but then my thinking goes as follows..

"this is a WW BB, and WW is my hobby, not English. Other wise the web address would be 'englishforums.ubeaut.com"

I suppose that this makes me lucky that my spelling isn't perfect, so I don't tend to see others mistakes. :D

signed.

X

Ps. Yes, I did just quote my own thoughts. :D

You also have to understand that some peoples are not haveing English as there ( yeah I know ) first language.
We should be encorouging such people to have a say, rather than picking up on there ( there I go again ) spelling mistooks.

Chairs, Al

Thanks Al for encouraging me to have my say as English is only my second language :D :D or was it my third or fourth? . In Holland I first started to learn French, then German then Latin and finally English.

Mind you with lack of practise I have forgotten most of the others.


Peter.

I have two languages too, my first is Manchester English, the second is 'straaaalian.
I tell ppl I am bilingual. ( cup of tea and a bun ) :D
I always think it is good to get the "other" persons account of things, there are a 101 ways to do a job and I know of only 1, so the more I hear, read the better, 'specialy from other cultures.

Cheers, Al Grasby

Peter.

Latin??? That takes me back a while.

Non illegitimus carborundem.

As to correct English, all I remember is the rule that prepositions are words that one should not end sentences with.

That meens.
My sandpaper is clogged.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Robert,

Yes, Latin and if my family did not migrate when we did the next year I would have had to learn Ancient Greek as well. Five languages as well as Dutch in the third year of high school.

Boy was I glad we left because when I came here I only had to learn English and I used Dutch as the second language instead of the French that was taught at the school I went to here.

Peter.

i dnot konw waht the plerobm is, Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rest can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Pual

Whilst not wishing to be seen as an "English language Nazi, and being somewhat less than perfect in the English dept myself, I have to agree with Bob to a large extent that proper use of the language is becoming a rarity these days.

My comments are not so much aimed at the users of these forums, but at the appalling standard of spelling and grammar taught in our schools and displayed by the younger set.

It seems that very few people these days are aware of the differences between such simple terms as there, they're and their, to, two and too, your and you're, and so on.

I work with young people for a living (not a teacher) and have noted that even the brightest of students don't know how to spell or correctly put together a sentence. Many, themselves, acknowledge this shortcoming and are quick to point out that our educators no longer see correct grammar and spelling as a priority. So long as the kids can communicate, it seems that the basic rules of English don't matter much.

I guess I'm just living in the past, but if, when I was a student, I'd made some of the basic mistakes which are common today, I would have been hit over the head by the teacher and made to write lines on the blackboard until I got it right. Sounds primitive I suppose, but it sure worked.

And, how many young people nowadays can add up without a calculator? We had to recite the times tables over and over as kids, until we learnt it off by heart, but youngsters these days don't even know what the times table is.

Oh well, got that off my chest. Gunna go back ta me shed an do sum wood work n stuff.

Geoff

Sorry ozwinner, a good try but not right.

It means absolutely nothing as far as I know and was the motto given by a disaffected supporter of classical bent to an SA football team that seemed to be full of wimps. It tranliterates to "no rough bast..rds"

The gentleman was obviously not a Port Adelaide supporter.

As to your suggestion, how about "carborundem coagulatus".

I have to say that Latin was much easier if you just made it up as you went along.

Those of us who use English, spoken or written; first second or third language, as our main means of communication are fortunate. English is a very flexible tongue. It has an enormous vocabulary - much bigger than most other languages - and it is in a constant state of change and evolution. If you want to get a perspective on the manner and extent of that change you only have to pick up a novel set a few decades ago, say during WWII, and read the dialogue. People say things quite differently now.

One of the drivers of change in the language is that people have, over a long time, made spelling and grammatical mistakes and these have slowly evolved into acceptance. As a current example, the words "imply" and "infer" have quite distinct and different meanings. However, people tend to use them interchangeably. As a consequence, they are slowly becoming actually interchangeable. I think the latest edition of the Oxford Dictionary acknowledges the change.

Don't get too excited about the mistakes. English is robust enough to withstand the shock.

Having said all that, I absolutely agree that teaching standards are a bloody disgrace. If students were taught the rules they would at least have an appreciation of the richness of our language.

End of lecture (steps down from soapbox)!

Col

Non illegitimus carborundum.

Robert, I agree with you - it actually means nothing at all but I always understood that its transliteration was: "Don't let the bastards grind you down".

Sapientia janua vitae

Col

Quote:

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Originally posted by Driver


Sapientia janua vitae

Col

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Translation

A Spanish sapien ( guy ) is alive, and called Janau.

This is a good game.

Correct English is one thing. Typos from 2 fingered speed typing is another entirely.

When my daughter was going to school here in Brisbane, I had constant battles with her English teachers. They themselves had not been taught English properly and so they were unable to pass on correct knowledge to my daughter. I was a constant source of embarrassment to her. J

Including my wife, there are six members of the immediate family who are teachers. Of these, one in particular is a head of department in English language. Her husband is a remedial teacher for various schools. I was talking to them the other day and the English teacher said that something was “the furtherest away from them.” I took her to task over this and she vigorously defended herself. Meanwhile, her husband had gone off to look the word up a dictionary. He came back very surprised and told her that I was correct and that there was no such word as ‘furtherest,’ and that the correct word was either ‘furthest’ or ‘farthest.’

The point I am trying to make is that our children have little chance of learning the way to use their language, when being taught by people who themselves are not aware that they are not teaching the right thing. .. That sentence was more convoluted that I intended.

My daughter went on to University where it became immediately apparent to her that her educators at this level did take English usage seriously. She now uses her skills in language in her job all the time (she writes for a living) and bemoans the lack of proper education in our junior schools.

Ps. another thing that drives me crazy is hearing people saying ‘youse’ as a plural of ‘you.’ I work at a large mail center in Brisbane that employs over 450 people and the manager’s introductory phrase when giving us a talk was always “How are youse all?”

Pps. Maybe I am an English language Nazi, although I do try not to be too obnoxiously so.
:D

Bob,

You are spot on (or should i say "on spot").

The rot set in when the standard of news readers on the ABC took a dive. One could always rely on the correct use of English on the ABC.

Politicians are gross offenders Pm says he does "as best as he can", and has the hide to criticise schools.

"Brilliant" sports achievements particularly in the football codes also annoys me! "Brilliance" has to do with the thought process, not the sporting achievements of the seemingly illiterate (an overpaid) "star".

Glenn

Bob,


I do not have any problems with what you said and in fact I prefer to read a post that is well written.

However your post that started this discussion was a bit sharp and maybe discouraging to members who, although their English or spelling may be poor, have a lot to contribute to this Board. After all it is woodworking board not a language board.

In any case your typo or spelling mistake was too good an opportunity to let go. :D


Peter.

I thoroughly agree with you Peter.
If I had seen a similar mistake in somebody else’s post, I also would have jumped on it with huge glee. :)

I admit that I purposely made my original posting a tad tart. This was intentional as I hoped to stir just the sort of reaction that I obtained. It was NOT ever intended to discourage anybody from having a go at anything and if this is what has happened then I do apologise to anybody I may have intimidated.

Ah Glenn, sportspeople eh? :)


What about the Cricket Test match between England and West Indies; one of the commentators said: "The bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey"

"Moses Kiptanui - the 19 year old Kenyan, who turned 20 a few weeks ago" (David Coleman)

"He's pulling him off! The Spanish manager is pulling his captain off!" (RTE's George Hamilton on Spain manager Luis Suarez's substitution of Butragueno during their world cup qualifier with Ireland in Seville,1992).

"The black players at this club lend the side a lot of skill and flair, but you also need white players in there to balance things up and give the team some brains and some common sense." (Crystal Palace chairman Ron Noades, speaking in 1991).

"Bill Frindal has done a bit of mental arithmetic with a calculator" (John Arlott)

"We actually got the winner three minutes from the end but then they equalized" (Ian McNail)

"I've never had major knee surgery on any other part of my body" (Winston Bennett)

"The lead car is absolutely unique, except for the one behind it which is identical" (Murray Walker)

"I owe a lot to my parents, especially my mother and father" (Greg Norman)

"Sure there have been injuries and deaths in boxing - but none of them serious" (Alan Minter)

"The racecourse is as level as a billiard ball" (John Francombe)

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing again" (Terry Venables)

'We'll still be happy if we lose. It's on at the same time as the Beer Festival' (Noel O' Mahony, Cork City boss before the game in Munich

'I would not say he (David Ginola) is the best left winger in the Premiership, but there are none better'. (Ron Atkinson).

'He dribbles a lot and the opposition don't like it - you can see it all over their faces.' (Ron Atkinson)

'I never comment on referees and I'm not going to break the habit of a lifetime for that prat.' (Ron Atkinson)

'It took a lot of bottle for Tony (Adams) to own up.' (Ian Wright -commenting on his teammate's alcoholism)

Ah, isn't that nice, the wife of the Cambridge president is kissing the cox of the Oxford crew.' (Harry Carpenter - BBC TV Boat Race 1977)

'Here we are in the Holy Land of Israel - a Mecca for tourists.' (David Vine)

'Morcelli has four fastest 1500-metre times ever. And all those times are at 1500 metres.' (David Coleman)

'Julian Dicks is everywhere. It's like they've got eleven Dicks on the field.' (Metro Radio)

' ....and later we will have action from the men's cockless pairs ...' (Sue Barker).

'Her time is about 4.33, which she's capable of.'(David Coleman)

Dennis Pennis: 'Have you ever thought of writing your autobiography?' Chris Eubank: ' On what ? '

'Well, you gave the horse a wonderful ride, everybody saw that' (Desmond Lynam)

'To play Holland, you have to play the Dutch.' (Ruud Gullit)

'Well , either side could win it, or it could be a draw.' (Ron Atkinson)

'For those of you watching in black and white, Spurs are in the all-yellow strip' (John Motson)

'Strangely, in slow motion replay, the ball seemed to hang in the air for even longer.' (David Acfield)

'What will you do when you leave football, Jack - will you stay in football?' (Stuart Hall - Radio 5 live)

'I'd like to play for an Italian club, like Barcelona' (Mark Draper - Aston Villa)

'There goes Juantorena down the back straight, opening his legs and showing his class' (David Coleman at The Montreal Olympics)

'And for those of you who watched the last programme (Fanny and Johnny Craddock), I hope all your doughnuts turn out like Fanny's' (David Coleman at the start of Match of The Day)

'...and Ray Illingworth is relieving himself in front of the pavilion'
(John Arlott)

'These greens are so fast they must bikini wax them' (Gary McCord on the greens at Augusta)

'One of the reasons Arnie (Arnold Palmer) is playing so well is that, before each tee-shot, his wife takes out his balls and kisses them - Oh my God, what have I just said?' (USTV commentator)

Bob,

We'll have to get intellectual here: Useful Latin phrases

Quis pili facit Man Utd ?

Solus numquam vades

Nos detestamini ? Facimus nihili

Nemo me impune lacessit

Caveat irea homeni patienteae

Glenn

Quis pili facit Man Utd ? (Who the fu#k are Man Utd?)

Solus numquam vades (You'll never walk alone)

Nos detestamini ? Facimus nihili (Nobody likes us, we don't care).

Nemo me impune lacessit ("No one injures (attacks) me with impunity)

Caveat irea homeni patienteae (Beware the fury of a patient man)

I cheated, I had to look them all up because although I could recognise some of the words, it is over 45 years since I studied Latin and I wasn't that good at it even then.

Geoff’s earlier comment about being hit over the head with a book stirred a memory for me. I can still remember my Latin teacher standing behind a boy and hitting him on the head with a (heavy) book whilst saying: Amo, amas, amat, amamus, amati, amant. The boy in question stood up and floored the teacher.

Bob, doesn't "Willson" have one "L" too many?;)

Bob,
If posts are going to be judged by correct spelling and grammar then this is not the place for me. Writing is a form of communication and so are hand signals, winks, morse code, binary and the indicator lights on your vehicle. If it is interpreted correctly then it is effective.
I would hate to think that people would not contribute to this forum for fear of being criticized about their spelling or grammar.
Off the soapbox now

Bob - To get a job as a shop assistant one must be able to say, "Yous right?" and must also be able to respond with a blank look when the reply to the question is "No we's ain!"

To get a job as a weather announcer one must be able to change any number ending nty to enny, eg Twenty = twenny, etc.

Just a couple of every day words (sayings) that really bug me.

Oh yes, nearly forgot these one's'. Why does everything ending with s now get written 's? What ever happened to s' and s just because it was the plural? When did gotten become part of our everyday language and why? :confused:

Cheers - Neil

PS This little rhyme is from the front of "A Polishers Handbook". After running the entire book through the spell checker and having it proof read 5 times by different people we still found errors, and I still get the odd phone call from a spelling Nazi from time to time.

I have a grate spell chequer,
It came with my PC
It plainly marks for my revue
Miss takes I cannot sea
I've run this poem threw it,
I'm shore your pleased two no,
It's letter perfect in its weigh.
My chequer tolled me sew!!!

Hi Christopher

You are thinking of the common or low life Wilsons, they only have one L in their names. The upper class Willsons do of course have two Ls so that the proletariat may easily recognise them as royalty and make appropriate bowing gestures.

Ubeaut

Just calm down and take it easy, or somebody will accuse you of having Nazi tendencies. Don't you like Americanisms?

I would hazard a guess that for the majority of us, it is too late -we are already set in our ways. I've been known to edit my posts when I spot a spelling or other typo. After years of reading other people's emails, I am used to translating their/there/they're, your/you're, of/off, its/it's, to/too, were/where, XXXX/beer.

It's a shame that the focus on grammar and spelling that we grew up with isn't there today but perhaps this is an acknowledgement that there are things which are more important for our kids to learn.

My personal pet hate is "should of", "could of", "would of". Despite that though, when someone says or writes it, I know what they mean and I don't bother pointing out their mistake because they're unlikely to change their ways as a result and they'll just end up thinking I'm a smart .

I have six nephews and nieces, all of whom hold science degrees from British universities, but none of whom can write a paragraph without some egregious error of spelling or grammar. I think the rot set in during the Sixties, when their teachers were being trained and fed with the latest fad from America, to the effect that spelling and grammar were unimportant, so long as a pupil could write creatively.

This foolish idea produced a whole generation of students who could write creatively, but were unable to express their ideas with sufficient clarity for their readers to be certain of their intended meaning.

I spent my adolescence learning Latin and Greek. Although most people these days would regard this as a waste of time, when a student should be learning things with a more practical application, I think that the mental discipline acquired in mastering these languages was valuable, as well as providing an insight into the derivation of many English words. Once you have learned the intricacies of the ablative absolute and the gerundive attraction, a Unix manual no longer presents an insuperable challenge.

I have a feeling that some people in this forum deliberately write with scant attention to spelling or grammar because they feel that it gives their writing a certain larrikin quality. Uh oh; I think I am beginning to exhibit some of that pompous asininity that causes Aussies to refer to some of us as Pommie b*astards. So I had better desist.

Rocker

Quote:

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... some people in this forum deliberately write with scant attention to spelling or grammar because they feel that it gives their writing a certain larrikin quality

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This harks back to the days in the playground when anybody who spoke properly, showed any interest in school work, or ever did their homework was branded a sissy or teacher's pet, had their lunch stolen and was never invited to accompany the older boys when they went down behind the Home Economics building for a cigarette.

No other languages were offered in my school. We were taught a few Indonesian phrases in Social Science but that was it. Most of our teachers were hippy-types and were barely older than ourselves, in fact some of my teachers went on to marry some of my fellow students - after a suitable period of course. The only English teacher of any note was Mr Gilmour, who would quote Shakespeare and Wordsworth at us - but you only got him in the advanced class.

Latin was declared a dead language well before my time but I took a course in it myself as an adult - all forgotten now of course.

It's hard to recall where I learnt what I know of English grammar but I'm fairly certain it wasn't in secondary school.

PROPOSED FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATION ACT

1000.A

No pilot or pilots, or person or persons acting on the direction or suggestion or supervision of the pilot or pilots may try, or attempt to try or make or make attempt to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the herein mentioned Federal Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by the Administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by the Administrator.

1000.B

If the pilot, or group of associated pilots becomes aware of, or realizes, or detects, or discovers or finds that he, or she, or they, are or have been beginning to understand the Federal Aviation Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in writing, the Administrator.

1000.C

Upon receipt of the above mentioned notice of impending comprehension, the Administrator will immediately rewrite the Federal Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further comprehension hazards.

1000.D

The Administrator may, at his or her option, require the offending pilot, or pilots, to attend remedial instruction in Federal Aviation Regulations until such time that the pilot is too confused to be capable of understanding anything.

From Rocker

Quote:

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This foolish idea produced a whole generation of students who could write creatively, but were unable to express their ideas with sufficient clarity for their readers to be certain of their intended meaning.

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Quite so, and it is this inability to express themselves clearly and concisely that is the crux of the matter. It is all very well to blithely state that it doesn't matter if one uses ‘there’ instead of ‘their’, but in certain instances it really would matter, as a particular sentence could be read both ways, have them both make sense and yet the reader may well obtain the exact opposite of the intended meaning.

Rocker, your erudition is showing badly when you use words such as ‘egregious’ and ‘gerundive’. You’d better stop it or you will go blind.

Quite seriously though, when I first came to Australia in 1966, the language I used was looked on scornfully by most Aussies and I was accused of talking with a plum in my mouth etc.

Talking with a plum ….. or with a plumb. Hmm different spelling but they sound the same, so either one must be acceptable. :)

ps I now write all my replies to this forum in Word and then cut 'n' paste. Hopefully no more embarassing boo-boos.

Bob,

How about 'aplomb'? That would be better, wouldn't it? ;)

Quote:

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... in certain instances it really would matter, as a particular sentence could be read both ways ...

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I should also like to point out that in English, this is entirely possible even when the correct words and their spellings are used.

Bob was illiterate, but ran a mildly profitable country store anyway. He was okay with numbers, and never forgot a face, and could keep accounts by drawing small pictures of the items.

One day a customer came in, and Bob said, "Hey, you were in here ten years ago and you left without paying for the merchandise. Grabbing a notebook off the shelf and leafing through it, he came to a page and pointed. "Here! You bought a dozen grinding wheels on May 27th."

The customer was alarmed and confused. He explained that he'd been there once ten years before, but had never bought grinding wheels anywhere, and what would he be doing buying them here, far from home?

One of the regulars leaned over and looked in the book. "Bob, you idiot! Can't you read your own writing? Those aren't grinding wheels. They're donuts!"

Bobb Willlson, a good read, Death Sentence by....................oh someone who was Paul Keating political speech writer.
He launches into great detail on the systematic destruction of English as a language by governments and corporations.
And my pet hate HERO only applicable to sporting identities who kick a goal or get blown up in Bali

Was never much good at anything at school, but had one absolutely inspiring teacher, Peter Finnane, who was not only a great teacher of English, but a philosopher, imparter of ethics and builder of confidence (and a pretty good writer in his own right). Forty years down the track, there are still many of us who think of what he would have advised whenever we write something.

And all this in a run down state school.