Colouring Pine

G'day All,

I am making a kitchen work top out of pine and am giving it liberal coatings of polyurethane which has been discussed at length on here.
I want to give it some colour as the only food safe varnish I could find was colourless.
I dont like stains due to the fact that whichever one I have ever tried the end result always looks orange/red and not nice.
To get a natural dark golden look like pine that has aged naturally, could I give the timber
a coat of some sort of oil first before the varnish and if so what sort would be the best.

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Originally Posted by stan250

I want to give it some colour as the only food safe varnish I could find was colourless.

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Que? Any oil or water based poyurethane finish once dry will be 'food safe' - well for a kitchen benchtop anyway (on which there is no requirement for 'food safe' surfaces in residential use - nor is one needed IMO). As would be two part finishes. Not sure what you have based your concerns on, but they seem misplaced to me so you could use a pre-stained varnish or finish in the colour you want or you could use one of the stains sold by the benefactor of this site http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm (or click on the logo top left) then coat with the lacquer. :2tsup:

Varies according to brand, but you'd need to know what finish you were using and what restrictions it had on any oil or other material underneath it before going ahead with a stain. There are solvent based stains that will give the colour you are after too and again once the solvent has evaporated (it is only the carrier for the pigment, just as the solvents carry the plastics in the lacquers) it is quite safe. :2tsup:

[quote=Bloss;795800]Que? Any oil or water based poyurethane finish once dry will be 'food safe' -

Yes that's what I thought but when I said to the guy in the store what I wanted if for he
went on about the food safe thing. I wanted to get an exterior grade in case that might
be more water resistant but he said the chemicals meant I couldnt use it for the bench.

Well my guess is he was trying to sell you up to his own brand or one with higher margins. 'Food grade' in a home kitchen is just a nonsense and no need for exterior finish either. I used three coats of gloss polyurethane on radiata pine kitchen benches in the early 80s and then re-coated before I sold in 1994 and it lasted very well. Like all finishes you have to be careful for a while as they take some weeks to harden up even though dry quickly.

So just go ahead with whatever type you wish - for the look you want I reckon baltic pine or dark baltic pine might be it, but nearly all brands have samples on radiata. BTW - I'd try a different shop . . .

Unless you're planning to eat your dinner off the bench or chop your veggies directly on the bench instead of a chopping board, I don't see why the finish on the bench is an issue.
I'm pretty sure kitchen tables aren't finished with food grade varnish, are they?:rolleyes:

"To get a natural dark golden look like pine that has aged naturally"

Just use a quality oil based polyurethane(like Cabots Carbothane), they have the tints already in them to give that golden colour... if you want it darker add a couple drops(couple drops... per 1 ltr of paint) of black oil based stain in the last top coat.

Where abouts in SA are you, near me?

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Originally Posted by Harry72

"To get a natural dark golden look like pine that has aged naturally"

Just use a quality oil based polyurethane(like Cabots Carbothane), they have the tints already in them to give that golden colour... if you want it darker add a couple drops(couple drops... per 1 ltr of paint) of black oil based stain in the last top coat.

Where abouts in SA are you, near me?

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G'day Harry,
I got Cabots Carbothane so I will exchange it for one with colour as long as you promise it wont end up bright orange like everything else I have ever tried to stain:U.
Long way from Port Pirie- I'm south west of you- that bit of rock in the gulf, covered in too many Koalas

ok, so this is what I mean. This kitchen wall feature thing was a disaster and is even more orange in real life. It wasnt a great brand of varnish/stain I do admit.

What can I do with it- I dont want to go darker - can I paint straight over it maybe ( dont really want to but I cant live with it the way it is). I dont want to have to get out the paint stripper and strip it all off- I despair of wood stain it never works out for me:doh:.

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Originally Posted by Mollywood

Unless you're planning to eat your dinner off the bench or chop your veggies directly on the bench instead of a chopping board, I don't see why the finish on the bench is an issue.
:rolleyes:

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Thats' right - and even if you did eat from the top, the bacteria and other organisms on it, on you, and on the food itself, pose more of a threat - reduced by good food handling practices and basic cleanliness, not some fear that you'll get poisoned by the bench top coating. :2tsup:

As to getting the right colour - only way to know is to select on the basis of samples of the product on the wood type you will be using and then testing the actual product on a small area of the specific wood you intend using. :2tsup: Even then UV & other factors can alter the colouring over time, but at least you won't get a brilliant orange when you are after brown.

Of course there are always salespeople and others that will swear that 'it'll be the colour you want when you put it on', as though there will be a miraculous transformation. Mostly stains will look like the test sample, but your own wood is the only close indicator - even then variations can occur. :(

The problem with staining pine type timbers is that the timber is mad up of soft absorbant sections and waxy non absorbant sections . Which means that it will not colour evenly as a piece of Tassie Oak or Pacific Maple will.
So to get an even colour you must add the stain to the first coat .
As stated previously you can buy pre stained polyurethane and add coats untill it is dark enough or one coat may be right. Then finnish with clear.
Spraying works best when using pre stained varnish.
However the colour will tend to cover up the grain .

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Originally Posted by stan250

G'day Harry,
I got Cabots Carbothane so I will exchange it for one with colour as long as you promise it wont end up bright orange like everything else I have ever tried to stain:U.
Long way from Port Pirie- I'm south west of you- that bit of rock in the gulf, covered in too many Koalas

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There's only one Carbothane, their other oil based poly is called CFP it has a higher(supposedly)oil content and some hardener mixed in.
It wont end up orange using Carbothane/CFP if starting with unstained pine it will go like this...
https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...7&d=1106193644

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Originally Posted by Harry72

There's only one Carbothane, their other oil based poly is called CFP it has a higher(supposedly)oil content and some harder mixed in.
It wont end up orange using Carbothane/CFP if starting with unstained pine it will go like this...

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now thats what I call shiny.
I kept that Cabothane for reasons you have already explained and got some stain......
well it was too dark so I thinned it down and now....my worktop is blotchy....HELP

PS: it's not orange blotchy this time- its a nice shade of yellow blotchy.

You have probably stuffed it. Clean back as much of the stain as you can with thinners and then resand the whole job.
Mix some stain with the varnish and test it on a scrap piece of the same wood.
If it has a colour change but not as dark as you want then that is OK just put on one coat and let it dry. Then put on another and it will get darker as you add coats.
Then when you are happy with the colour let it dry properly and sand it off very gently with a pad of very fine steel wool just enough to remove the roughness.
Dust it off with a damp cloth and let it dry well.
Then coat with clear varnish let it dry then smooth it off again with the steel wool , dust it again .
Then coat it again in nice warm conditions not early morning or late afternoon not outside. Warm the house up if necessary.
For a good gloss finnish you could use Cabots marine grade urathane .

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Originally Posted by Retromilling

You have probably stuffed it. Clean back as much of the stain as you can with thinners and then resand the whole job.
Mix some stain with the varnish and test it on a scrap piece of the same wood.
If it has a colour change but not as dark as you want then that is OK just put on one coat and let it dry. Then put on another and it will get darker as you add coats.
Then when you are happy with the colour let it dry properly and sand it off very gently with a pad of very fine steel wool just enough to remove the roughness.
Dust it off with a damp cloth and let it dry well.
Then coat with clear varnish let it dry then smooth it off again with the steel wool , dust it again .
Then coat it again in nice warm conditions not early morning or late afternoon not outside. Warm the house up if necessary.
For a good gloss finnish you could use Cabots marine grade urathane .

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thanks Retro- I had already sanded off the stain and thankfully it all came off.
I have decided not to use any stain and just use clear varnish and I dont think I will ever touch stain again at least not on pine.
As for spraying the polyurethane (low sheen interior Cabothane)- I was going to do it under the vernanda outside so that I dont get the stuff all over the house or shed- but you said not outside- why? also people on here have said to thin up to 50% with Turps and do lots of coats so water wont get into the wood and stain it- do you agree with this?

If you are spraying it then you will have to do it outside.
The reason I say keep things warm is that it helps get a good finnish.
Cold conditions will cloud the finnish and make it patchy. Will be less of a problem with low sheen.
Just pick a warm day that is still no wind to blow dust around .
Only thin it down just enough to spray correctly. If you thin it too much you will get runs of the edges and drying time may be affected . Try it unthinned first on some scrap and go from there.
Only thin with the solvents recommended on the can. From memory Carbothane is turps based.
I have never had a problem with water staining the wood with carbothane .
Several thin coats is usually better than one thick coat because it can be put on flatter which requires far less sanding ( steel wooling) between coats . When you steel wool it don't use your fingertips it will leave hollows. Use the flat of your hand with a big flat pad of steel wool. Watch the surface it will go a milky white colour to indicate you have done enough and move on.
Go gentle you should constantly feel with your other hand when it smooths up and thats enough.
Put on a light coat and let it dry properly then gently smooth it off with the steel wool , dust it up and start again . After a few coats it should start looking flat and even . Don't steel wool the last final coat .
If you have never done this kind of work before it would be a good thing to practise the whole job on a piece pine first to get the whole idea in your head and see what kind of finnish comes up. Once you get the hang of it , it will give you confidence to tackle the main job. That is what I allways do even today and I have made a thousand billiard and snooker tables in my time.
Products change all the time and a bit of practise can do wonders for the final job.
Another thing that may have been a problem is that you must use a water based stain with a water based varnish and a spirit stain with a turps based varnish.

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Originally Posted by Retromilling

If you are spraying it then you will have to do it outside.
The reason I say keep things warm is that it helps get a good finnish.
Cold conditions will cloud the finnish and make it patchy. Will be less of a problem with low sheen.
Just pick a warm day that is still no wind to blow dust around .
Only thin it down just enough to spray correctly. If you thin it too much you will get runs of the edges and drying time may be affected . Try it unthinned first on some scrap and go from there.
Only thin with the solvents recommended on the can. From memory Carbothane is turps based.
I have never had a problem with water staining the wood with carbothane .
Several thin coats is usually better than one thick coat because it can be put on flatter which requires far less sanding ( steel wooling) between coats . When you steel wool it don't use your fingertips it will leave hollows. Use the flat of your hand with a big flat pad of steel wool. Watch the surface it will go a milky white colour to indicate you have done enough and move on.
Go gentle you should constantly feel with your other hand when it smooths up and thats enough.
Put on a light coat and let it dry properly then gently smooth it off with the steel wool , dust it up and start again . After a few coats it should start looking flat and even . Don't steel wool the last final coat .
If you have never done this kind of work before it would be a good thing to practise the whole job on a piece pine first to get the whole idea in your head and see what kind of finnish comes up. Once you get the hang of it , it will give you confidence to tackle the main job. That is what I allways do even today and I have made a thousand billiard and snooker tables in my time.
Products change all the time and a bit of practise can do wonders for the final job.
Another thing that may have been a problem is that you must use a water based stain with a water based varnish and a spirit stain with a turps based varnish.

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thanks for all that- I appreciate your help with this.
To prevent cupping do I need to give the underside as many coats as the top or will one or two do and in fact how many coats is needed on the top to give a kitchen worktop proper protection, do you think?

It is a good idea to seal all around for sure especially in a kitchen situation . two coats on the bottom should seal it up ok or if you like put the same on as the top but dont bother with the steel wooling on the back.
If the top is not a laminated design (lotts of strips glued together ) then it would be a good idea to glue some cleats accross underneath in a few places where they will not get in the way of fixing it in place , just to resist any tendency to warp as pine can warp all on its own.
How many coats it takes is hard to say depends on how thick each coat is applied and how absorbant the wood is , how much you cut back . I use a sanding sealer first which cuts down on the need for extra top coats its like using a primer in normal painting .
I think by three maybe four coats should bring up a nice even well sealed surface.
You just got to be guided by what is happening on the job surface. If you get to the third coat and it looks good and is nicely sealed then that is ok. If it still looks a bit uneven and not sealed then keep going.

If you are spraying poly do not spray it outside!!!
Poly is a slow drying finish, its exposed to dust and crap(insects love it) for a longer time and can not be repaired without a fair amount of work(and waiting several days for it to cure fully first, with the exception of denibing).

I do it differently to RetroM, I dont bother with sanding sealer as polyU is its own sealer... poly sticks to fresh poly very well.(after several weeks it does not, it must be keyed by sanding)

1st coat goes on thinned out 20~50% this acts as the sealer, if the grain has raised or a lot of dust has settled a very light sand with 220grit+, if not dont bother with sanding it.

2nd coat thin by 10~15% and flood it on(within reason!), you'll find polyU works just like enamel car paint if you put it on thin it will not level out and look crap(with spraying and brushing, rubbing on is different).
Once again if its rough with dust a very light sand with 320g+ or steelwool it over just enough to remove the inclusions.

3rd coat is a repeat of the 2nd.

A few hints
PolyU flows out so put it on thick

Runs can be repaired by letting it cure for at least 48hrs in hot weather(longer in cold), then wet rub it back flat using a dash of detergent in the water, you must then recoat it.

Cheap poly and turps= cheap die in 2 yrs finish

Never ever overwork/overspray it(like enamel), after 2~3 minutes do not go back over what you've already coated, if brushing it will leave very ugly brush marks... if spraying it may orange peel(dimples due to surface tensions).

1 seal coat and 2 top coats is plenty, it should be .5~1mm thick!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harry72

If you are spraying poly do not spray it outside!!!
Poly is a slow drying finish, its exposed to dust and crap(insects love it) for a longer time and can not be repaired without a fair amount of work(and waiting several days for it to cure fully first, with the exception of denibing).

I do it differently to RetroM, I dont bother with sanding sealer as polyU is its own sealer... poly sticks to fresh poly very well.(after several weeks it does not, it must be keyed by sanding)

1st coat goes on thinned out 20~50% this acts as the sealer, if the grain has raised or a lot of dust has settled a very light sand with 220grit+, if not dont bother with sanding it.

2nd coat thin by 10~15% and flood it on(within reason!), you'll find polyU works just like enamel car paint if you put it on thin it will not level out and look crap(with spraying and brushing, rubbing on is different).
Once again if its rough with dust a very light sand with 320g+ or steelwool it over just enough to remove the inclusions.

3rd coat is a repeat of the 2nd.

A few hints
PolyU flows out so put it on thick

Runs can be repaired by letting it cure for at least 48hrs in hot weather(longer in cold), then wet rub it back flat using a dash of detergent in the water, you must then recoat it.

Cheap poly and turps= cheap die in 2 yrs finish

Never ever overwork/overspray it(like enamel), after 2~3 minutes do not go back over what you've already coated, if brushing it will leave very ugly brush marks... if spraying it may orange peel(dimples due to surface tensions).

1 seal coat and 2 top coats is plenty, it should be .5~1mm thick!

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I did not mean he should use sanding sealer and carbothane will dry within hours to resist dust and insects.
It would be better to do it indoors but he has said he can't.

RM I meant to reinforce what you said about using poly outside, sorry if it didnt come out that way:)
Yes Carbothane is touch dry in 1~2hrs but thats a long time when dust and insects are concerned.

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Originally Posted by Harry72

RM I meant to reinforce what you said about using poly outside, sorry if it didnt come out that way:)
Yes Carbothane is touch dry in 1~2hrs but thats a long time when dust and insects are concerned.

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True , it can be a problem especially on the final coat .