Carbatec loses sale

First I want to make it clear this isn't an attack on carbatec. It's a question, but I'm going to take a while to get round to asking it.

Today I wanted to get a 4 castor machine base for my new saw. I really need to get it mobile cos it's in the middle of the bay and blocking everything. I also was thinking of getting some stuff for my table top.

So I call carbatec and get price and availability on the base. $89 in stock, fine. Then I ask about iron table treatment. "No we don't sell anything like that, try a hardware store". I prompted as best I could but she would neither ask someone else nor offer any kind of solution. I didn't push too hard. I wasn't in the mood and I think if I'd said "I know you sell this ask someone who has a clue" or words to that effect I think I would have had an argument on my hands.

Ok, so I call H&F. The base is $10 cheaper, they are closer and the guy tells me about a product they sell and then unprompted goes on to suggest 2 or 3 other solutions from other suppliers. He didn't suggest what I wanted but he was trying. He was polite and sounded interested.

Carbatec's service in my experience is either really good or really poor, depending on who you get. I've read posts on this forum from people who have had both very good and very poor experiences with all the suppliers. The thing is H&F and TTD sell at a demonstrable discount to carbatec and timbecon, so what usually happens is I buy bits and pieces from Carbatec and Timbecon and big purchases plus a lot of other stuff on ebay or from the US.

So here is my questions. Pretty open ended..

What do you all think about this ? How do your experiences compare ? Should I be going out of my way to spend money at Carbatec ? Or should I just get everything online from the remarkably polite, helpful, well stocked and ridiculously cheap US suppliers ? and bargain shops like H&F and TTD ?

Please don't make this a heated argument. I'm just a bit perplexed and would appreciate some thoughtful insite.

Go where the best service is :)You obviously got someone in the office or sales who is not a woodworker. Probably she should have checked with someone more knowledgable as you say, because the end result was not a win for them.

Usually I will research what I want before I call or go. This way I know exactly what I want and have all the info I need so no big decisions or change of mind is needed when I am there buying/picking up etc.

Damien, it is not an isolated incidence. I have walked into Carbatec Sydney with a pocket full of cash and strolled around for 10 minutes looking at bits and pieces, but low and behold no one asked me if I needed help. So I walked out and brought what I wanted elsewhere. I do go to the shop if I want to stroll around a shop buy stuff ad hoc:U

I havent realy found to many problems with Carba-Tec. I always make sure im talking to some one in sales. Most of the crew are realy helpfull, sometimes they haven't been very helpfull and its been disapointing. But I can get the same treatment from my local hardware, and I know some of them quite well. My biggest gripe about Carba-Tec in Melbourne is not being able to get through to talk to any one. I waited for 10 min today and gave up in the end. I tried later and got through. I tried again this arfternoon and with no luck. Thats my biggest gripe. That and not having enough stock in the store. Often we would like equipment the next day especial being a school but often I have to wait up to a week if not longer, even for a router bit. Any way, I keep to those companies with the right price and the stuff that I want. I have tried other places and the quality is not the same.

My two bob's worth

Regards Jamie

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Originally Posted by Pat

I have walked into Carbatec Sydney with a pocket full of cash and strolled around for 10 minutes looking at bits and pieces, but low and behold no one asked me if I needed help.:U

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Dear Guys,

In all honesty, I have had the same thing happen to me over at Hare & Forbes, but it was for more like 30 to 45mins... I have found CarbaTec to be sometimes good, sometimes ordinary.

Damian, I reckon there's a bit of a cultural thing going on with it all. You note that you get consistently better service from your US suppliers compared to our guys. I've been thinking about this whole thing for several years, and I've concluded in my mind at least that it's got a lot to do with the differences in the way we shop compared to the way Yanks shop. Aussies I think generally shop for serious stuff along the lines of how Dean has stated that he does things - ie. a lot of research first, with a few unhindered non-committal looksee's along the way, and only then does the "folding stuff" come out. The salespeople are Aussies themselves and therefore understand this, and to top it off - there's no such thing as "tips" for good service over here, whereas over there the whole setup seems to based more around commissions and the like that arise from better service that must ultimately convert into sales for the company. The buyer over there has therefore perhaps become accustomed to better pre-purchase service, and this has fashioned the way he (or she) shops - maybe less initial research and more reliance on good service, to the point now that if a retailer doesn't give it, the market punishes them. All in all, there's a lot less "safety net" around and about US society than there is over here, and maybe it comes out in the more imperative need for quality in the service rendered by their salesmen.

There was a lot of froth in the above, so I'll only make that 2c please Sir (I'm undercutting Jamie...:D - I'm 'Hungrier' for the sale.)

Best Wishes,
Batpig.

I've always had good experiences at Carbatec, in fact I was there today to buy some biscuits and look at a porter cable biscuit joiner (which they don't stock anymore) and ended up leaving with my wallet a lot lighter. 3 different sales people helped me at different stages while I was succumbing to temptation:(. I don't care if they approach me first or not, if I go there on a mission, I will go up to someone if they don't come to me then they are only too willing to help.

Cheers
Michael

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Originally Posted by Batpig

All in all, there's a lot less "safety net" around and about US society than there is over here, and maybe it comes out in the more imperative need for quality in the service rendered by their salesmen.

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I'm not sure I agree with all of that, Having lived in the US and having to buy cars there, their used car salesmen for example make ours look like boy scouts. The fact that people don't do their research means that more ignorant get continuously ripped off or talked into stuff they don't need, just like they do here but maybe not quite so much. The US citizens that do their research can do extremely well in the US - it more of a buyer beware market.

My experience here in Perth at Carbatech when purchasing my lathe and bandsaw have been good to very good. Timbecon have also been very good on big things, like the time they sold me the ML-392 for $200 less than their special price because of a stuff up on their computer (full story here). Other times they have been below average. The only time I went to an H&F agent I got attended to but zero service - I am unlikely to go to that specific store again no matter how good their prices are. This is the thing with some customers - one experience hangs around for a long time.

2 things.

1. Salespeople have to deal with a huge variety of personalities walking in the door every day. Some people object to be approached some expect it, so you can't win. Having said that fobbing a customer off IMO isn't acceptable.

2. You really have to look long and hard to understand the USA way of doing things. There is a lot of half truth and misunderstanding of them in Australia. They do have a medicare like program and social security but it works very differently to ours. Did you know that US citizens are liable for income when working abroad, and that they get a tax concession on mortgage repayments ?

We mistakenly believe they are culturally similar to us because they were settled (conquered?) by whites and speak a dialect of English, but Australia is and has always been primarily Catholic while the USA was settled by protestants. It is astounding how big an impact this has on culture. The catholic way is more socialist where we all go forward together and this gives rise to the tall poppy and slagging off we are famous for. Conversely the protestant approach is deprivation, hard work, individual fortune and philanthropy. I saw a doco some years back on people in the US who had fallen off the dream path. Lost jobs, homes everything. Every single one of them supported the system, none wanted a welfare state more like ours. Instead they were hell bent on rebuilding thier lives. I'm not saying either system is right or wrong, just pointing out we have very different attitudes.

As for exploiting the ignorant I want to get out my chainsaw every time I see one of those f*ng ads on TV for derivatives trading. Geez talk about selling matches to children.

I've had mixed experiences.
One of those companies was going to order me a part. That was 3-4 weeks ago. Still waiting to hear back.

We're a bit limited on options when you want good wood equipement.

I had similar experiences as everyone else with both H&F and Carbatec.

Carbatec are always substantially more expensive than H&F, so I've bought nearly all my serious machines from H&F.

Both stores have some really helpful sales staff and both have some duds.

I expect Carbatec would justify the higher prices by saying their service is better, this in my experience, is not true, although they do tend to know a bit more about woodworking than H&F who are biased toward metalwork stuff.

Neither come close in service terms to places like McJungs, Carrolls etc where the owner runs the store.

I'd also suspect that the sales people are on minimum wage, so dont really give a rats.

I have bought stuff from both CT and HF, as stated above on average HF tends to be a bit cheaper. Service at CT Melbourne is always better than at HF Melbourne, particularly on wood related stuff.

Where both have a problem in my experience is on stock control. I have ordered stuff that was out of stock from both companies, I have never had the promised phone call when the stock comes in.

I ordered a Sheppach wet grinder at last years' wood show from HF, never got a phone call to say it had arrived, it was left to me to follow up and ask (several times). When queried why this is, all I got was a look and a shrug of the shoulders (ie "you're confusing me with someone who cares!")

Last May I had made up my mind (finally) to buy a C3 7x14 metal lathe, no stock, delivery promised 7-10 days. By late July, and quite a few phone calls on my part (none from Carbatec) I decided to have a look at a different supplier and found a better lathe for not much more, so purchased that. When I went to tell CT that the 7x14 was no longer needed I was told "oh but we have those in stock now:(". So that was a $1K order down the tube due to poor stock control and non existent follow up.
Did the sales person care? Not likely!

Last week I visited CT Adelaide and was after something that was out of stock, the sales person there (remember this store has not been open very long) expressed his frustration with the CT stock control "system".

G'day, Damian.
I dont really have any personal experience to add to your first post (but I'm quite interested in what others have found at various stores, since I'm planning to spend a bit of hard earned on some large purchases in the near future). The real reason for this post is to congratulate you on the sensible manner in which you phrased that first post. So often, I see post #1 of a thread about personal experiences like yours as a rant (justified or not) that just sets the tone for the rest of the thread - rendering it not much more than useless.
Conversely, I've found this thread both interesting and useful; I think predominantly due to well thought out opening remarks.
Well done.

There's good, there's bad everywhere. I could tell stories about our Home Depot but it would be pointless.

What I can say is that when I was working for Rockler, a gentleman came into the store with a gift card. It seems that one of his grand children had given him a small dollar amount gift card. The gentleman wandered the store for perhaps an hour, looking, imagining and just having a good time. Each time a sales associate offered assistance he politely declined. Finally he decided upon his grand purchase, a very inexpensive router bit. He had to add almost $10 in cash to purchase the router bit.

Then he mentioned that he was going to sit and look at a few magazines. After another 30 minutes or so I inquired of the gentleman if he was OK. The gentleman laughed and explained that his 9 year old grandson had given him a gift card for $5 and that just looking to see how to spend the gift card was the most fun that he had in years. He went on to explain that he could no longer drive and he was waiting for the bus and that he was really enjoying the air conditioning. It was over 40° outside.

About an hour later the store manager asked me what was going on with the gentleman sitting and reading magazines. I explained the air conditioning thing and the manager asked if he had purchased anything. I told the manager that he used a gift card to buy a router bit. The manager gave me one one of "THOSE" looks and retreated back to his office. I never saw the gentleman again but have often wondered if the router bit actually was used. I do know that the gentleman had a delightful afternoon.

I have been using CT in Canbarra. These guys almost NEVER have anything in stock:((. Which means that you can go and look at the goodies on the website but you can't go and buy them:o. They are licensed to use the CT name but I don't think they really are tied to the company. I think the problem is that they run a very slim business and don't want to sink a whole lot of capital into stock that may or may not sell. Which is sane. Having said that is is irritating when your order is forgotten, goes missing, "we'll call you when it comes in" (sometimes). I could go on. This all encourages me to look elsewhere for what I want. They are nice enough people but I am getting to the point where I will pay more to avoid the hassle.

But I am not sure things would be better without their outlet. I understand that Canberra was without a CT shop a while back. If you wanted to buy big stuff and had to pay for shipping that might be a different story altogether.

Steve

I don't think thats a big deal Damien quite honestly.

Every counter has different personalities and moods behind them. Can't expect them to be all clones with super service. uno.

Be a different story if the bloke told you to off.

Like most people I do a lot of research on the internet if possible,I was recently interested in buying a baby lathe for penturning,the carbatec was about 279 dollars reduced to 229 on runout, I looked at hare and forbes and they seemed to have an identical one for 199 including gst.I fronted up to CT and with the two printouts asked the difference ,the salesperson looked and said they probably came from same factory hehe, and promptly offered me a price well under the hare and forbes,so of course I got it,Normally I am not a haggler just pay the price if I can see the value for me,may have to think again on this philosophy :) Both stores are a fair way from me so it was a lucky trip took me to CT in brisbane .So it all depends on who you get at the time and if they are doing their job properly ,meaning assisting the customer towards a sale ,that is mutually beneficial.Cheers

Go into your desired shop and buy some small products just to judge the sales staff, do it several times so you get to see all the sales staff.
When you find a good one... ask for them by name every time you go there... this can even lead to discounts being a regular customer with the sales person.

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Originally Posted by mikm

G'day, Damian.
Conversely, I've found this thread both interesting and useful; I think predominantly due to well thought out opening remarks.
Well done.

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I'm flattered but I think your giving me too much credit. The followups have been commendably restrained though :D

Couple of things:

1. I'm not cranky about this, just a bit bewildered.

2. Every business gets an awful lot of bad customers. I'm constantly amazed when I see the way people behave towards wait staff, counter staff etc. I go out of my way to be respectful and polite to face people, and I'm often remembered and treated well for it. I also get face staff are human and any number of reasons could have them having a bad day, or just had a poor experience and hung over from it. Sometimes a bit of brightening up sees their mood change while I'm dealing with them, and I find that satisfying. Having said that this isn't a one off, and I'm not sure it's good enough.

3. I know sales people don't get well paid but if your really unhappy with your pay you should be scanning the classifieds. I know a lot of the sales people at some of these stores are ex tradies. I can't believe they are on minimum wage. A lot of them seem to get some satisfaction from their work also. A wise man once said to me "if it were all fun they wouldn't pay us". I love what I do but trust me, there aren't enough electrons in the SEQ grid to type up the problems, stress and terror inducing incompetence I have to wade through. I don't spend my days moping around makeing everyone else miserable though. And just every blue moon we have a tiny tiny win. If you can't be shagged you shouldn't be in a face to face position.

2c.

I go to Carbatec in Perth fairly regularly now (Since I found out about this store I'm always trying to find excuses to go there). I'm mainly buying small things (clock parts, router bits, glue and the like) and I'd have to say that the blokes there have always been extremely helpful (Special mention needs to be made for Joe, the Woodturning bloke, he has been excellent). I'm only fairly novice at woodworking and on numerous occasions I've been in there looking for "Something" I know what this 'Thing' does but usually dont know its proper name is. The blokes have always helped me out and i've left with what i went looking for. I've also got a few bigger purchases (jointer, bandsaw, morticer) and the guys have been helpfull pointing me to which model etc I needed, and the next thing i know i'm putting it together in my shed.

But as some of the other guys have said their main letdown seems to be their Stock control, if they have it in stock, No worries - I leave more than happy. But if they dont have it in, thats where things start to go downhill. I was looking at the website, and on the main page was a big ad for a new product, a magnetic angle finder, I figured this would be a handy little gadget have. I was at CT got some other stuff and tried to get my new gadget, they didn't have any left but said they could order one for me. So its been ordered and paid for. That was almost a month ago, even after a couple of visits they still cant give me an ETA.

Even with this problem I'll still keep going there, even if i'm not buying anything (this rarely happens :D) I just like to walk around and drool at tools i'd like but cant afford.

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Originally Posted by Fireguard

I go to Carbatec in Perth fairly regularly now (Since I found out about this store I'm always trying to find excuses to go there). I'm mainly buying small things (clock parts, router bits, glue and the like) and I'd have to say that the blokes there have always been extremely helpful (Special mention needs to be made for Joe, the Woodturning bloke, he has been excellent). I'm only fairly novice at woodworking and on numerous occasions I've been in there looking for "Something" I know what this 'Thing' does but usually dont know its proper name is. The blokes have always helped me out and i've left with what i went looking for. I've also got a few bigger purchases (jointer, bandsaw, morticer) and the guys have been helpfull pointing me to which model etc I needed, and the next thing i know i'm putting it together in my shed.

But as some of the other guys have said their main letdown seems to be their Stock control, if they have it in stock, No worries - I leave more than happy. But if they dont have it in, thats where things start to go downhill. I was looking at the website, and on the main page was a big ad for a new product, a magnetic angle finder, I figured this would be a handy little gadget have. I was at CT got some other stuff and tried to get my new gadget, they didn't have any left but said they could order one for me. So its been ordered and paid for. That was almost a month ago, even after a couple of visits they still cant give me an ETA.

Even with this problem I'll still keep going there, even if i'm not buying anything (this rarely happens :D) I just like to walk around and drool at tools i'd like but cant afford.

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I have been waiting for the same thing for ages. Managed to get one of the Lee Valley ones. Doesn't attach to the saw blade but is pretty nifty. I guess CT did lose a sale.

Steve

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Originally Posted by Fireguard

But as some of the other guys have said their main letdown seems to be their Stock control, if they have it in stock, No worries - I leave more than happy. But if they dont have it in, thats where things start to go downhill. I was looking at the website, and on the main page was a big ad for a new product, a magnetic angle finder, I figured this would be a handy little gadget have. I was at CT got some other stuff and tried to get my new gadget, they didn't have any left but said they could order one for me. So its been ordered and paid for. That was almost a month ago, even after a couple of visits they still cant give me an ETA.

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This is precisely why I won't pre-pay for orders any more.

I don't know about other Carbatecs, but the "system" in CT Melbourne (as explained to me by their staff) is that stock comes in, is then put in the shop, and when staff gets time they do back order picking from that stock in the shop. Of course, by the time they get around to doing the picking, half the time the stock has already been sold.

This explains why I ordered a wooden parallel clamp for my Incra some time ago, and paid for it. Never did get it sent out to me as faithfully promised, then one day I walk in and lo and behold there are the same clamps hanging on the wall.

When I expressed my dissatisfaction with this situation, I got that "you're confusing me with someone who cares" look!:(

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

This is precisely why I won't pre-pay for orders any more.

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But what's the alternative?

I bought a chunk of stuff from CT Canberra this year - paid for it in Feb, got some in May, some in July and the last bit today. No big problem for me as I'm not in a hurry. The timing was lousy, the communication from them non-existent (I think I did all the calling), but the staff were apologetic and friendly - gave me plenty of advice about all kinds of stuff, and a couple of gratis wood-turning lessons. This alone is enough to get me back again. I'm not an expert, so it's good to find real people who are cabinetmakers or woodturners and who are willing to chew the crud.

Buying stuff via the web is far more problematic - you still have to pay up front, you don't get to build any rapport with a real person, likely the person you're dealing with is a sales type who can't advise on your purchase, and you don't get any extras (like borrowing a engine hoist so I can unload the heavy stuff).

As I said, I'm not in any hurry, so no contest (also nowhere else in Canberra you can see this kind of stuff or talk to people about it). I am curious to see how you can buy a large table saw without paying up front?

Cheers,
Adam

I've bought from Carbatec, both in store and over the net, and pretty much had consistently good service. But, the big stuff I've bought I've picked up myself rather than having it delivered, and I've had to do the vast majority of the follow up. Which is annoying and frustrating. I've also bought from a lot of the other Australian based suppliers, and there are some that I've had very good experiences with. The place I bulk buy sandpaper sheets from is a surfboard web-site (can't recall the name just now) and they are excellent. Cheap prices, great service, and terrific communication.

Without doubt the best place I've bought from remotely is Lee Valley. Shipping all the way from Canada, so paying through the nose for freight, but the service is fantastic, the quality is excellent, and as long as the AUD is high against the USD, the prices are good value. Unfortunately buying big machinery from the US or Canada isn't realistic. There really doesn't seem to be an Australian outfit in existence that provides a nation-wide presence and excellent service.

I buy from Carbatec in Perth and always get good service without being leapt upon as soon as I walk in.
I tend not to use Timbecon any more as, despite their name THEY DON'T SELL TIMBER!

Bob, can you please find out the name of the sandpaper supplier?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by SteveMcM

I have been using CT in Canbarra. These guys almost NEVER have anything in stock:((. Which means that you can go and look at the goodies on the website but you can't go and buy them:o. They are licensed to use the CT name but I don't think they really are tied to the company. I think the problem is that they run a very slim business and don't want to sink a whole lot of capital into stock that may or may not sell.

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I have had the same experiences there They lost out on a band saw, table saw, dusty, thicknesser. And all of the small items. Now I order from Sydney CT stuff arrives within two days the postage is worth it for me no hassles.
les

As requested:

http://www.shapers.com.au/category65_1.htm

I've bought one shipment from them (it will last me a while because I bought a lot!). They even sent me a free surfboard shaper to apologise for being a bit long to deliver (it was still less than a week). Not sure what I'll do with that...

Just a side note... Fireguard... Joe is a forumite here Gwhalt (or near :doh: ) if memory serves... and if you have a search you will find a thread he started on making a harp beautiful job that has from what he told me awhile ago been used by some high end orchestra player...

If Carbetex was closer Id have done a lathe turning course with him... but LUCKY for me its bloody miles away so that means my wallet stays firmly in my pocket!! Seems every time I visit that damned place my wallet miraculously become light as a feather :C

Experiences?

Timbecon... I refuse to enter their doors... Ive heard theyve changed hands and maybe I should give the new mob a chance but Ive also heard that the same sales people are on the floor so its not going to happen any time soon.

H&F... rude insolent arrogant sales means I walked even though they had what I wanted at a better price... I think the attitude was that in their "estimation" I was just a tyre kicker so bugger him... even when told I had cash and was in the market was still treated with absolute crass rudeness... now maybe the bloke was having a bad day it happens or the chickybabe was uhem that time of the month it happens... but as a customer and a paying one I dont nor does anyone else deserve to be treated rudely or with insolence by young idiots who would prefer to yack to their friends on the phone or chat up the young chickybabe talking on the phone while Im waiting!... stuff them and any other company that has staff like that.

Carbetex... Only one problem one time but that was with their ordering section ordered a measure dial thingy and even though they have my name and address on the computer (have for several years) they sent the damned thing to Victoria!! :~ but once explained by phone they resolved the issue pretty damned quick... last time I was up there got a trainee bloke had no idea what I was talking about so he grabbed another bloke who wasnt sure who grabbed another bloke who did and I was in business... everyones a learner at some stage no wukkers!

PTAMS in Bunbury (Jet dist) I go there when I need bits an bobs but had a bit of "an experience" there with the welder so tend not to buy large items great mob!

Sooo... good an bad mate good an bad

Next time I go for big gear I'll be looking a bit further afield and aim for quality instead of best price. :2tsup: of course that entails my winning lotto which entails me buying tickets which for some weird reason I seem to forget :doh:

Cheers
Shane