School...

I have slight beef/suggestion with/for Woodwork at school. Currently school woodwork is 40 kids bumming around bodging up basic hoop pine items using blunt tools and unmaintained machinery.


A big class results in:
No proper skills being taught eg. Joinery(dovetails etc.), sharpening, design, timber info, machine maintainence.
A large amount of timber being ordered (and wasted) which means cheap and easy timber is chosen (pine)
Designs are chosen which will be simple and basic (tables, always with the tables. and mugtrees)


Instead the class should be just a few students, chosen because they have an enthusiasm for woodwork and show attention to detail. With a small class of interested students they could be taught proper joinery techniques, sharpening etc.

Not having to order so much timber would mean different (prettier, nicer) timbers could be used.

*Rant complete*

FC, I am sure your teachers would agree with you but unfortunately the government dictates that school is inclusive and everyone must do certain things until they reach a certain age. This means that kids that don't want to be there and only want to stuff it up for everyone else have to be there still as there is no other option for them.

What you can do though is right a letter to your local member complaining about the ridiculous class sizes and how that impacts on your learning and so your chances of employment in your field of choice once you finish school. Nothing will happen until more people do it.

For example, the WA gov is currently squeezing teachers via refusing to negotiate on a new EBA in addition to refusing to release a report that was commissioned early last year into education in the state. It has got to the stage where they were getting that much egg on their face about it they released the report today. It will be interesting to see what the news has to say tomorrow about the contents of the report. Whether it causes change within the system here is another question, but we can not but try - write a letter young friend!

Dont worry, i did an apprenticeship as an electrician a while back, and they never taught us to maintain tools/machinery or equipment, even how to use them! Most of the skills i have learnt have come from interactions with others, and my carpenter brother and grandfather, and my toolmaker father.
If you are keen and have a teacher who still cares and is passionate about his work, why not approach him about yourself (and possibly others who are interested) to see if you can do more interesting projects, even if it requires some out of hours commitments.
Back in the day when i was at school, we could take shop as a night class, and creativity was encouraged, providing you met the standard assessment criteria.

I think one of the problems is that you have a good knowledge of woodwork.

Schools are there to teach people new things. They have trouble coping with people who already have expertise in the subject.

Ever seen kids start at school already able to read? They soon lose it.

FC, you sound like a smart chap, dump the woodwork and have a go at studying something that it's hard to teach yourself, for example; something like physics as it is often too counter intuitive so it doesn't make sense the first or even second or third time around. You will learn a lot about how things work at a very deep level and how to measure and test things in a very systematic way - this then becomes something you can apply to almost everything, especially something like engineering. and including WW (I use it all the time in my ww and mw projects) .

Don't worry if you don't understand much - it grows on you - deep understanding of something complicated is worth knowing and even if you only end up understanding half of it, even that it is worth knowing.

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Originally Posted by funkychicken

Instead the class should be just a few students, chosen because they have an enthusiasm for woodwork and show attention to detail. With a small class of interested students they could be taught proper joinery techniques, sharpening etc.

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at my school, WW is compulsary (and MW too) in years 7 and 8. then you CAN choose it as an elective in yr 9 and 10 where you move on from basic joinery (glue and nails:oo:) to M&T, dowells, biscuits, mitres and all that jaz. then in yr 11 and 12, basically you choose what you want to learn because you design your major project and the teachers want you to do the best you can so they teach you the right things on an individual basis or small group (so if you wanted to use DT, they'd teach you that).

i'm not sure how they go about teaching about sharpening and machinery care...i imagine they would from yr 9 onwards but it wouldnt surprise me if its something they only teach if they get asked!

Is this how it works in your school? (being in QLD and all, it may be different)

I see that nothing has changed in that dept. since I was there, 30+ years ago... :~

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

I see that nothing has changed in that dept. since I was there, 30+ years ago... :~

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And 20 years before that.

But FC and stirlo are already ahead of me, as I took the academic path. Didn't really learn sharpening until a few years ago, and still a ways to go.

Bucky Fuller referred to schools as the "stupidity factory." A bit unfair, though. The best thing you learn in school is how to teach yourself the stuff they don't teach.

Joe

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Originally Posted by joe greiner

And 20 years before that.

But FC and stirlo are already ahead of me, as I took the academic path. Didn't really learn sharpening until a few years ago, and still a ways to go.



Joe

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hmm, i havent done WW at school since yr 8 and i have no idea how to sharpen stuff properly (just adequetly:rolleyes:):)...i'm like you and do the brainy subjects at school (3unit maths, physics, chem etc).

i like your quote too:cool: in a few subjects, you are expected to teach yourself (multimedia comes to mind, history to an extent as well).

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Originally Posted by ss_11000

i like your quote too:cool: in a few subjects, you are expected to teach yourself (multimedia comes to mind, history to an extent as well).

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That's true for everything in some form or other. You can read about it, or someone can tell or show you how to do something but ultimately you have to assimilate this within your own understanding of the world. For some subjects this is easier than others. A good teacher also inspires and shows you how to learn as much as what to learn.

Young Mr Chicken,

I too am like Skew and yes back then clases were the same as they are now.

I went off and did the maths, physics, chemistry ....thing, so woodwork became a hobby not a career.

But then I was a bit luckier than some others as I had a grandfather that was a builder and an uncle that was a carpenter & joiner and that's where I learnt nearly all of the tool maintenance part of woodwork.

Write to your local member expressing your concerns (it probably won't get to far) and get others to do the same (now they might take some notice but still do nothing). It's not until it's out there in the public eye that anyone will openly talk about it. (Skill shortage comes to mind, but it will still be left on the backburner of politics)

If you are really serious about woodworking as a career then talk to your teacher , don't whinge to him (cause it's not his fault). Then find some other carpenters in your area and go talk to them. Hell, they might even impart some knowledge on to you.

Basically it's a case of teach yourself but then you can teach yourself bad habits. That's why you also need the guidance of others (not necessarily only your teacher).

That's why this forum exists.

Keep at it you will get there and we are always here.

Steve

I know where funkychicken is coming from. I still can't believe it when I'm using a Terry Gordon plane that I'm actually doing it. I was so turned off using hand tools at school. We always waited till the teacher wasn't looking and used the disc sander. Somehow he could always tell??

At the other extreme to what funkychicken is referring to are the fine woodwork courses that are offered around the country. They are preaching to the converted but it is an opportunity to show the real love of working with wood and the inherent beauty of (some) tools.

In my class (yr 5&6) i cut my losses and they do set items. Sliding lid box, biplane, spice rack, bomber, jewellery box. It's all step by step and the good ones help the others and if a kid is really worried they can put it all in the 'pixie box'. I always allow one of the more able kids who finishes early to make something special or out of some special timber. The others can see that it can be done.

Graham

[quote=BobL;756160]FC, you sound like a smart chap, dump the woodwork and have a go at studying something that it's hard to teach yourself, for example; something like physics as it is often too counter intuitive so it doesn't make sense the first or even second or third time around. [quote]

I actually find physics a lot easier than woodwork.

This thread is interesting, because it's just like it was when I was at school. I took to metalwork like a duck, couldn't get wood to work at all. Now decades later I'm having another go. So far can still count to ten :)

Missing the point I feel

These are trained teachers who are neglecting their responsibilities SAFETY, OH&S & Workcover regulations it is paramount to laziness. These are not teachers well I hope they are not just someone taught to teach from a text book even if they are this shows the level of competancy students and furture employers and workers have to put up with:doh: a sad state of affairs QLD is not alone.

Everyone knows dull edges are more dangerous than sharp ones.

Check what the teacher is buying in and like we did back in the late 60's discovered the wood we were supposed to be getting he was was using himself or giving to friends.

This after all is your and your parents Tax money and fee's if you have to pay for it.

As suggested write a letter of complaint to local member, Federal Member, Education dept and OH&S & Workcover send copies to the headmaster as well and keep copies for yourself.

Size of the class is nothing we had that many back in the late 60's a poor excuse sorry no time for maintenace andnot qualified or haven't been trained then they shouldn't be in that position. If it ouside contractorswho are supposed to maintain then find someone who'' do it:~

You see I like to work in a calm, idiot free environment. School woody is exactly the opposite, it's full of people who have no interest in woodwork or doing a quality job. I sometimes wonder about safety around these students. Stupity + Machinery = Yikes


The teacher is a good bloke, he was a cabinet maker so he's got knowledge. He's not fine furniture minded like me (he uses chipboard:o) but he's a good teacher.


School is actually working for me for once, They're allowing me to use their equipment for some projects of mine. No more Hoop Pine Coffee Tables!


Funky C

school hasn't changed in the last 50 years from the sound of it

So your doing practicle physics FC how to move mountains and get ahead those idiots will be the ones in years to come asking the seasoned Pro (you) on this forum "How Do I" "what do I use" :2tsup:

Glad you have a good teacher makes a difference especially if its one you get along with and visa versa.

Chipboard good tree's wasted:C:~

FC
I don't know what is is like down where you are but up here in the north they have school based appreticeships, where the students spend a couple of days a week in the trade they are interested in (and get paid for it too) and the rest of the week they do the normal school work.
My friendly cabinetmaker has got a new full time apprentice this year, who spent part of his last year in school sniffing around the workshop and getting the feel, whether this was what he wanted to do with his future life..
As it turned out, Rhys is very good at it and already using machinery that is normally not used until his third year. I suppose it was a strike of good luck for him that is is a very small shop and everything is done from scratch.
Maybe something like that could work for you?
Wolffie

I will put my hand up as a teacher....

I actually am a trained Physics teacher and teach Physics and Science at school. I am also very passionate about woodwork. It was my best subject when I was at school. I was lucky, as our school shared a workshop with a tertiary institution and we were taught about tools, sharpening and maintanence and their correct use. I actually wanted to train in that area as a teacher but was refused because I was "LEFT HANDED"!!!!!!!!

I have always been involved in woodwork. Made my first wooden toys before starting high school, did some building work, renovated my parents house and made their furniture before leaving home. My main interests are in clocks, toys and woodturning and the odd bit of furniture making.

After 30plus years of teaching, I finally got the chance this year to teach some woodwork (a year 9 class). For OH&S reasons, kids are not allowed to use any of the workshop machines (we wern't when I was a student either). They basically have access to hand tools, then battery drills, sanders and the linisher/disc sander.

I agree with Funky, it would be great to have some students who really wanted to learn and for others, it is a danger to them and the rest of the class to have them there. It is so refreshing to find some students who want to be creative and who are prepared to put in the effort to get the desired result.

What a lot of us need to remember is the limited time we have with our students... 100 minutes per week divided by 18 students. Then there is the time to get it all ready for them. I spent 6 hours at school yesterday (unpaid of course) getting the timber ready for the breadboard/chopping boards the class is making. (They are not allowed to use the table saw, jointer or thicknesser) and due to the limited time, it is neccessary for me to do the first lot of glue ups. Then occassionally you have to find time to help the other teacher in the department with sharpening and maintanence etc. Sometimes I get so frustrated, I bring my own tools to school! Then what do you see...someone using a chisel as a screwdriver or a putty knife or cutting into the metal of the vice with a saw!

Oh by the way, I also have to maintain 3 servers, 100 workstations and provide assistance for all the users.

So am I enjoying the experience of teaching woodwork... The answer is yes! If I can help kids to be more creative, improve their skills and take pride in their work, then it is all worth while. I will never be able to do that with all of my students, but that is like life... you can offer all sorts of help and guidance but not everyone wants it or is willing to use it.

Student bashing or teacher bashing won't solve anything... in a way it is more symptematic of the society we live in...workers are expected to do more and more for less and less and many people want everything without putting in any effort. Think about it... it is everywhere. All we can do is the best we can and try to make a difference in whatever we do.

Just my thoughts,

Chipman:)

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Originally Posted by Chipman

I will put my hand up as a teacher....



Oh by the way, I also have to maintain 3 servers, 100 workstations and provide assistance for all the users.

So am I enjoying the experience of teaching woodwork... The answer is yes! If I can help kids to be more creative, improve their skills and take pride in their work, then it is all worth while. I will never be able to do that with all of my students, but that is like life... you can offer all sorts of help and guidance but not everyone wants it or is willing to use it.

Student bashing or teacher bashing won't solve anything... in a way it is more symptematic of the society we live in...workers are expected to do more and more for less and less and many people want everything without putting in any effort. Think about it... it is everywhere. All we can do is the best we can and try to make a difference in whatever we do.

Just my thoughts,

Chipman:)

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Makes me wonder what all the other work mates are doing if your doing all that stuff. Many industries professions are the same.

It stinks....:~ year 9 thats 2 years into high school and while parents are striving to teach their kids to grow up and become responsible adults by 16/18 which is legal ages for many things, makes you wonder why kids get so damn stressed. No wonder if they do leave at year 10 thats 12 months to learn what has to get them through the first 4 years of any job. Bosses especially those of the older age can't understand why they school leavers have no idea, this is where over regulation and extream idiots have pushed us to.:roll:

Not to worry FC is gaining a world of schooling right now the best education he could possibly get.:2tsup::2tsup:

Interesting that nowadays, kids aren't allowed to use machines. At school, I only did 1 year of woodwork and then had to switch to tech. drawing. But we were allowed to go into the woodwork or metalwork shops before classes and do our own stuff under the informal supervision of a teacher. Didn't have much in the way of woodworking machines except lathes, but were allowed to use metalworking & welding gear if we could show we knew how to. I guess the teachers were just happy to see that we were interested.

Your not wrong funkychicken!

I'm probably the only student in my woodwork class who actually does the right thing and obey by my teacher (the teacher is a she by the way). I enjoy doing woodwork, always have and always will even the theory side of woodwork doing orthographic drawings etc.

I'd hate to see how many unskilled carpenters/cabinet makers there will be when we are older!
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Originally Posted by Ron Dunn

Ever seen kids start at school already able to read? They soon lose it.

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Yep. And 55 years ago it was 100 times worse. You do not need to ask how I know.