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A couple of days ago, a very respectable member posted this sentence:
Is this true? If it is, why? Gloating implies malice, boasting implies pride. Neither is gentlemanly, but I would happily admit being a bit boastful, never to deliberately gloat. So please educate me in the ways of Anglo culture. Are the Anglos really happy to be malicious, do they need to be instructed on how to read a dictionary, or what?Quote:
Gloating is OK in Anglo culture; boasting is not.
I'm Anglo and I'm not fond of either.
HH.
I thought a "gloat" was one of the less tasteful things to come from our American woodworking brethren.
That's cause y'all aren't as good as me nor have my fantastic tools, workbench timber et al. :roll::brucelee::shutup1:
Yes, but!!! Its OK to stir people, which was what the quote was doing, me thinks. In fact, the more we like you the more we stir.:D Its also OK to gloat OR boast as long as you do it in a sort of stirring, self deprecating way. Ah! Aussie culture is complicated.:doh:
Schadenfreud trumps them both.:D
I agree, Alex, Schadenfreude is one step up from gloating, and the fact that this German word has been accepted in the Macquarie dictionary could indicate that indeed gloating is part of the culture. Still I do not understand what makes malice acceptable, though. Of course, as Tea Lady says, making fun of ourselves makes bad things like this more palatable (ha ha Mick).
The Americans seem to be an easy target, and maybe they do not know the difference between gloating and boasting, but while the quoted poster thought that they boast, because that's what he does not like, Ron here suggests that they gloat, which presumably is what Ron does not like. Rather subjective, methinks.
can't see the problem,myself
"boasting and gloating "
isn't that trying to get the goat in the boat (whilst drunk)?
and "schadenfreude" thats just laughing at Germans that fall over,
or is that when you give Sigmund an umbrella? :?
Frank&Earnest, I understand the difference between "gloat" and "boast". What I dislike is that both too often represent taking unfair advantage of a person or circumstance.
Example (contrived): Look at this great table saw I got for 1/10th of its real value. Real meaning: I took advantage of someone who didn't know the true value of this item.
Thanks for bringing this up. I'd been using the term "gloat" without appreciating its connotation. According to my AMERICAN dictionary, "gloat" does indeed incorporate malicious pleasure. I promise to retire the word and sin no more. I don't know if I can influence any other Yanks, but I'll try. The English language is a Work In Progress - always has been, always will be. Even Dr. Johnson despaired that the language was going to hell in a handbasket.
My dictionary's entry for "boast" seems to have the most complete usage notes, with synonyms of "brag," "crow," and "vaunt." I haven't yet sorted out an appropraite replacement for "gloat." I don't think most of us intend to include malice, just a wee bit of satisfaction.
Joe
I suspect in their purest meaning (i.e., as defined by the current dictionary) both are considered poor form in Anglo culture. But I also suspect that, at least in WW circles (I am not too familiar with other subject-specific forums), the term "gloat" has begun to take on a different meaning, viz. to tell one's acquaintances about a new tool, for example, not with malicious intent but only to share the information with like-minded people. If the Group accepts the new meaning, all is well. If not, misunderstanding and strife results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest
That it is a corruption of the term there can be little doubt, but it happens all the time. I can remember clearly when gay meant happy and carefree. :)
Thanks Joe and Bob, you are confirming my gut feeling that it is only a matter of loose and changing interpretation of the word, not really one of "culture". A little bit of malice certainly lurks in all human beings regardless of culture, methinks.
And how ironic that you are both from the other side of the pond...:D
I am proud of my Milanese heritage, and the Milanese were traditionally called "braggarts" in Italy because they had the most of everything, like Texas or Sydney...
The story goes that a Texan tourist picks up a taxi at Milan's main train station, a huge mass of marble and cement in monumental fascist style and says "Great! how long did it take you to build?" and the cab driver:
- "About three years, I think."
- " Oh, in Texas it would have taken three months."
Then the tourist looks on the right and sees the Pirelli skyscraper, for many years the tallest armored cement building in the world.
- And how long to build that?
- About two years.
- Oh, in Texas it would have taken two months.
Silence for five minutes, then the cab gets to Piazza del Duomo, where the imposing cathedral, built over four centuries, stands.
- And how long to build that?
And the cab driver, with the straightest face:
- Don't know, it wasn't here when I passed by this morning!:D
Ron, I was not at all suggesting that you do not know the difference, my apologies if it read that way. I was only saying that the value given to the words seems to be rather subjective, wich is consistent with what Joe and Bob say.
Its seems to me that boasting is done with serious intent, that would almost be un-Australian and whoever does it deserves to be taken down a peg:p; whereas gloating is done with some sense of self-deprecation, not to be taken quite seriously. The word to me has some sort of comic over-blown aspect, like a vaudeville stage swagger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest
I've noticed it is used a lot on forums, but seems to be part of a competitive comeraderie. Extend that to the Australian slagging-off between mates (persiflage, sledging?), there is an element of competitiveness, but generally lacks real malice...everyone knows the rules. Its when sledging steps over a certain mark that malice becomes obvious, as we've seen on the cricket pitch. And I dare say that gloating could descend into boasting.:rolleyes:
Cheers,
"Persiflage"
I just had to go and look that one up. Nice word :)
I think I get the gist of what you are saying Andy, but just to be sure, is what you are saying basically what somebody else (can't remember, quoting from memory) expressed as:
the difference between Americans and Australians is that when seeing somebody passing by in a Cadillac, an American thinks: "One day I will also drive in one of those", an Australian thinks: "That bastard, why doesn't he drive a Ford like everybody else?"
I got a Landcruiser 200 GXL V8. He He He. I am doing both he he he he.
I have always treated gloating as persiflage on the board.
If it gets malicious it don't stay long.
... when seeing someone passing by in a Cadillac, an American thinks: "One day I will also drive in one of those", an Australian thinks: "Poor bastard."
The last Cadillac in which I drove wallowed around like my Grandma's bum.
I was waiting for Andy's response before tackling this one, but given that you are saying the same:Quote:
Originally Posted by
-in the English language "gloating" is not "persiflage" (why not good old "banter", isn't this snobbery?:) )
- using one for the other indicates either:
- accepting a common usage of the word that has changed its original meaning and has not yet been taken up by dictionaries or
- accepting a word that implies malice to the preference of others that do not.
I am being charitable and assume the former. I stand with Joe Greiner on this one and would not be impressed with Australian culture if you could convince me that the latter is true.
For myself, as I said at the beginning, I love banter an irony, may occasionally stoop to sarcasm, and would probably agree if you occasionally found me bragging. But I would never call my behaviour gloating, and would be extremely surprised if you said that it is. Therefore, if it true that:
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(BTW: nobody has confirmed or denied this directly yet) I am afraid that I will have to live with the difference. I hope that this won't be enough to put me in the list of potential terrorists under surveillance.:D
Edited to add: to make it simple, if you are actually saying in bad English "Persiflage is OK in Anglo culture; boasting is not" there is no argument.
The way I see it is:a gloat is picking something up at a bargain price or being given something and refers to an object with no malicious intent to either the receiver or the giver. It is persiflage to the rest of the members.
Boasting is referring to the first person singular namely yourself. If someone came on and boasted that they had bought an object from person X and how bloody stupid he was for selling it at that price then that is malicious and would last a very short time before he was flamed by other board members for being a boastful thief and would probably be deleted shortly thereafter.
So to answer the last question in good English. YEP. :D
PS Hence no argument.
Thanks , that is very clear. I call boasting what you call gloating and call gloating what you call boasting.
What is it gonna be: beers at the pub or dictionaries at twenty paces? :D
Boast "geez I'm bloody good at this"
Gloat "what a bargain, pity you fools didn't get one and never will"
It's actually very hard to gloat when you've always been poor the only thing going for you is a gigantic intellect that few, if any, can comprehend.
IS that a gloat or boast of persiflage?
And in case you were wondering, I had major head trauma 7 years ago and lost my empathy, sympathy and about 30 IQ points taking me down to about 175:U:U:U:U:U:oops:
.........I think there's too much time spent....worrying about the "Queens English"...or the bushman's "bloody oath's"....AND SOME DON'T SPEND ENOUGH TIME WOODWORKING....come'on u Nancy's ....put your pen's down...tuck your pride back in your pocket....you're not holden' the chisle or hammer long enough...we want to keep people interested in WOODWORK...not loose them between the lines.......ANYONE WANT TO PICK ON WORDS...TRY THE NEWSPAPERS....I GAVE UP READING THEM....BECAUSE THE "ENGLISH' LANGUAGE IN THAT WASN'T WORTH THE JOB.....THE BUSHMEN USE IT FOR!
......BACK TO THE SHED....
.....love peace makers....they remind me of the aroma of a good woodshed!.......
........you do not need sight to have vision......
........you do not need hands to feel...
........you do not need to be together to be in contact....
........all we need, is to know we are loved!....KEKEMO
Thats the way I read it!Quote:
Originally Posted by
But the latter said with a smile. Almost an invitation to show your own bargain/find/score, whereas the boast would indicate no challenge unless ego's are seriously involved...imo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingermick
Sorry kekemo, for some of us words are all we have. In lieu of woodworking we talk about it, a bit like sex when you're older!!
Cheers,
I ain't got one of them beasts He He He. Aint't I lucky He He He :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by ernknot
Thanks Andy. We have different moral values, but I respect your view, it is consistent and based on the "proper" interpretation of the words. For you, a little malice is better than pride. You can't say that you read it the same way as , though, that's inconsistent with your further explanation.
Gingermick, if what you say is true and not a boast:), that trauma has ensured that now you have the qualities to become rich, if your moral values or personality do not get in the way, that is. :wink:
Kekemo, you have contradicted your own signature. By staying in the middle of the road, you are getting hit by both sides :).
Maybe it is a cultural thing. Boasting and excessive pride was not encouraged when I was a kid, the dour Scottish/NZ kind of humour was. My people are deeply suspicious of anyone beating their own drum, and as a rule Kiwi's see Aussies with the same doubt that Aussie's view Yanks. Always boasting that their's is bigger and better!!:D:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest
Have I said too much!
Cheers,