Shellac, tell me all you know!

Shallac.... want to learn everything there is to know about it....tell me more....who ever reads this...if you know anything...

Have made up the general mix...250grams to 1 litre of metho....
it's like a dream to use...
But,as this is my first application with it...I would like to hear any of the properties or characters it has, that any other forumies have gleaned...while using it.

I've applied the first coat...to the pine...(making a queensized bed....) and have sanded back with a 800grit ready to reapply....for second coat....
its really great...so anyone who can give me more information I would be grateful....thanks...KEKEMO...we can all learn new things...even little oldme....lol.....

kekemo,
Shellac is one of the best and most forgiving finishes for wood and greatly misunderstood, even on this forum. You will hear it cannot stand moisture, it cannot stand spirits, etc etc.
My best advice to you is to go to search on this forum, enter "shellac" and read all you can. There will be many conflicting viewpoints, mine included. For example, I am a great advocate of using a rubber, whilst others prefer brushing. Then come back to the forum with your questions. There will be plenty to offer advice..

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

I discovered shellac last year (well, used it properly for the first time). I reckon it's wonderful stuff too. I usually apply it with a pad, which is loosely based on a rubber - a bit of cotton waste wadding wrapped in a bit of old T-shirt. I try to finish everything in flat form before assembly, which avoids having to get into nooks and crannies, but of course that can't always be avoided. I've got some artist's brushes that I use for that.

I don't follow any recipe when mixing it - a handful of flakes in a jar and then just cover with metho. I pad on several coats, then wet sand, then burnish with steel wool, then apply traditional wax (as per instructions in the Polisher's Handbook). Looks great.

I don't sand back between coats - as each successive coat melts in to the previous one. I usually set everything up on a table and then give it several coats every 15 minutes or so (as soon as each is dry). Very light coats, probably about 6 or 8. This works fine for the way I'm using it.

Hi Kekemo,

I'm a big fan of UBeaut's Shellacs - White, Hard and Sanding Sealer. The shellac gets mixed with as pure metho as I can source. I no longer brush it on, but apply with a rubber similar to SilentC's.

Apply a couple of coats, very lightly sand - 400, apply another couple of coats, very lightly sand - 800, another couple of coats, sand again 800 and if I go further than this, I will get into the 1500 and 2000 grits.

Then I try to let the piece stand and cure for as long as possible before waxing with Traditional Wax. I thinkt the curing time could be up to 2 weeks.

cheers
Wendy

What Wendy (RR) said. Shellac is great and thinned down old shellac is great sanding sealer.

But all you need to know is in the Polisher's Handbook - the best $32 you will ever spend! (now can I win a prize draw Neil, can I huh, can I)

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Originally Posted by jmk89

What Wendy (RR) said. Shellac is great and thinned down old shellac is great sanding sealer.

But all you need to know is in the Polisher's Handbook - the best $32 you will ever spend! (now can I win a prize draw Neil, can I huh, can I)

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JMK, No, you can't.

KK, shellac is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I keep a jar of thinned down shellac for sanding sealer and a brush hanging in the shellac thinner, ready to go at all times. A good finish by itself. A great sealer between coats of differing substance. Your friend. :)

Oh...what a great response...I thank you all, everyone of you! :D
It is so good to discover something that your really like...makes such a difference ...but then to find out more information from others who use it...really great. Yes, I am going to do a fair bit of research....reading & enquiring...plus google + archives....I am really excited...and anticipating finding out more advantages to this "baby"...

Ok...I am really getting old now! What's a rubber.....in woodworking terms...I am lost with that one!:?

I used a rag....( actually I always use "winchy material" its knitted on one side....and very fluffy pile on the other side...leaves no threads & doesn't get caught in the wood ever...I apply using the knit side...rolled up the rage and placed in a sealed air-tight container...ready for the next lot....after it was dried...I sanded back ever so lightly with 800 grit....re-applied & that's all I have done so far....the colour on the pine is almost same as Baltic pine....just supurb....I'm definitely passionate about this stuff...been looking for about 8 yeasrs for just this, it has all these qualities ...easy... quick... smooth... sensational.....& doesn't really smell offensive, actually can't hardly smell it at all!

OK...( I'm not really nuts....but) .....Was just talking to my "Dearest Departed Hubby"...as we all do in our minds when we loose someone we love...you occassionally chat to them...about anything...& everything...but this time....TOLD him..." if you blunt all those tools in God's workshop before I get there ..... I ain't bringing you any Shallac..!!" :no: Do you think he will take heed of that!....lol It's really good stuff...specially requested I want my coffin coated with it....lol....

All I can say...."You little beauty...you bloody little BUG!"

Keep that info rolling in ....I am reading and really enjoying...not greedy but will take all I can get.....
Cheers to everyone....thanks again...
Kekemo....:2tsup:

Down the shed now....glue that bed together....should be able to post pictures tonight....

....

kekemo

A properly made and folded rubber consists of a ball of unmedicated cotton wool about the size of a cricket ball. Then take a piece of lint free linen about the size of a man's handkerchief. (I use my wife's old pillow cases.) Fold as in the pictures shown, and make sure the face of the rubber is smooth with no creases from the fold. When using the rubber it is best to use a squeeze bottle to recharge the rubber from the back. This stops picking up any bits and transferring them to the work. The cotton wool reservoir is very useful because you can control the amount of shellac you put on the work just by squeezing the rubber. The rubber is folded with a point at the leading end to make it easier to get into small spots. I make at least two rubbers, one to put on general shellac and the other which is almost pure meth as a finish rubber. Keep the rubber in airtight jars and you'll be able to use them until the linen wears out.
After the initial coat to raise the grain, I rarely use abrasive. Use of the rubbers can give you a finish almost as good as glass, if you want it.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

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Use of the rubbers can give you a finish almost as good as glass, if you want it.

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Yes but don't expect to get it without some instruction and a lot of practice.

Beauty of shellac is the ease of use. Wouldn't agree about needing instruction, but practise yes. As with all things, practice is the key to success. The person who has never made a mistake has never done anything worthwhile.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

great stuff to spray, keeps in gun for ages, then just spray wait 5 min spray again,and so on ,you can get a very good shiny finish after a bit of practice, no mention of where it comes from ,just google it,you will be amazed where it comes from,wont say though (may be wrong) and there are a few who watch posts waiting for someone to make a mistake ,them bamm,they're onto you.bob

i always had trouble spraying it, maybe not enough metho

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Wouldn't agree about needing instruction

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So how did you find out what a rubber was and how to make one? How did you discover the purpose of a finishing rubber? Did you come across the way the rubber is swirled across the surface by chance, or did somebody show you? Did you discover these things through practice alone within no-one telling you how to do them?

All I'm really saying is that if you expect a glass-like finish from shellac on the first try, you'll be disappointed.

Again thanks to everyone for posting your replies...seems I'd already make myself a "rubber" jiust didn't know it....lol....yes I like the method of wiping on the "shellac" its just glorious to use.

I guess that I am propbably going to disappoint a lot of woodworkers here...I understand the pursuit of the "glass finish"...but that is not exactuly what I am after in my case.

Don't need it to be finished to that extent...that beautiful smooth glossy look certainly can't help but make the furniture look absolutely magnificent. ......... so truely don't need to go to that extent...(hope you don't consider that cheating or being slack....I crave for that country-cottage look....don't want the glass reflection...lol....miight show the dust too much..:rolleyes:...)

Well must love & leave you all....Cancer support meeting today...(wont miss them....they have been great since I lost my dearest ED)...but hey...straight home from that & out the shed!..:p..Oh that aircon's nice!

Cheers everyone....thanks for the responses.
:2tsup: Kekemo

It's a personal thing, but I prefer the low-sheen look too. That's why I use the 'waxed French polish' method from Neil's book. It really is dead easy too. Difficult to muck up, unless you accidentally sand through the finish. Even a clot like me can good results from it.

Silent,

If have ruffled your feathers over the word "instruction" I apologise. I took the word in it's narrowest sense as personal instruction. Mea culpa. The purpose of this thread is to help Kekemo to understand a little bit about shellac and not to engage in a semantic discussion.

Kekemo,

The problem with these short bursts of communication is that often things are not fully explained. Shellac CAN give a high gloss if that is what is required. However equally it can give the low sheen you require. I repeat my original suggestion to click on search on the tool bar of this forum and go over past threads. An example of a low sheen (my kitchen cabinet door) is attached below. Apart from wax there are other methods of lowering the sheen.

Sounding a bit like the Shellac Appreciation Society here. Anything it can't do? Durability/water resistance/etc?

Tex

Jerry, I'm devoid of feathers. :)

I just wanted to make sure Kekemo knew that getting a glassy finish with shellac will not be as easy as brushing on gloss polyurethane and some instruction (whether through the forum, from a book, or a finishing class) will be required, as well as a lot of practice. I know this because I have yet to attain that level myself. :)

But as it turns out, she doesn't want the glassy finish anyway, so it's moot.

Great stuff, shellac.

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Originally Posted by Tex B

Sounding a bit like the Shellac Appreciation Society here. Anything it can't do? Durability/water resistance/etc?

Tex

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well you can glaze cakes & bikkies with it,
(dunno if yer use metho fer that procedure)

Tex,

You've found our guilty secret. Yes I am a member of the shellac appreciation society.

Durability? Magnificent. In a previous thread I explained I had used it on a kitchen door right next to the exhaust from our dishwasher. Hot caustic steam and it lasted five years before I gave it a rub over with the magic "rubber". Good as new. That covers heat, moisture, durability I think.

Oh yes and ease of repair.

Safe with low toxicity? Used to coat pills in the pharmacutical industry.

It's an in the wood finish. Different to many on the wood finishes, it imparts a warm glow to the wood Etc etc etc.

Could bore you some more but why not get some shellac, try it and join the Society?

Yes there are other finishes and I do use them occasionally.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

It has also been used to make picture frames, small boxes and other moulded objects, records (old 78's are made from it), as a protective coating on fruit, for the manufacture of dental plates, and who knows what else.

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Originally Posted by Tex B

Sounding a bit like the Shellac Appreciation Society here. Anything it can't do? Durability/water resistance/etc?

Tex

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Well Tex, its not the best to drink, but hey with a bit of Coke it scrubs up, better after quite a few beers..... Ive also not seen it do the washing yet, I live in hope.

In all seriousness I think its wonderful. Even a klutz like me can get a good finish. Yes, it takes practise. Ive had it on musical instruments and Neils' advice of using linseed oil to lubricate the rubber is good. It greatly increases water resistance.

Kekemo, get Neils finishing book. Essential reading, I learn more each time I reread, plenty of "ahhh........thats what he means......" moments,

Sebastiaan

I'm a relative novice with it from a fine woodwork sense, but recently used it on a pair of tables I made from recycled rosewood (thread here somewhere), and I was really impressed. Easy to buff to good shine, after building up layers.
I have used in art school a lot, on paper and wood, and mixed things into it like pigment and natural ochre. In Printmaking it is used on collagraphs to seal before inking up, and we also use it extensively in Ceramics and Sculpture studios on plaster when sealing a mould.
Add me to the Society!:D

Cheers

Shellac, is also used to seal the glass bulb to the metal base on light bulbs.

This is not a knock, but a fact. It is not a very durable finish, that is why it is used on antiques, or on furniture that must be well cared for and not abused. It is not "normally" used on production furniture, which is a clue why it is not used for commercial furniture.

Alcohol based products like perfume will dissolve shellac, cleaners will also damage shellac. One of its main features is that its very repairable, in fact damages can be made into invisible repairs. Shellac is an evaportive coating
which means it will redissolve in alcohol, and making it possible to "knit" the damages together again using the proper circular padding technique.

Yep...I'll join this society for sure:D:cool:....we had never used varnish...we always used wax's & polishes....so have been very used of building up the layers....time staking labourous work...this is just so darn easy compared to the techniques ...that I have used before...only ever used varnish once...that was for the spa-table because it was near water....so really looking forward to the practicle side of my learning curve...I am so impressed ....already!

Yes, I will definitely look for that book...little more information on it if you please? ....don't travel to Perth much...and even getting 800 + 1200 grit sanding disc's is not easy....Mandurah...needs a woodworking specialty store....now if Carbatec....or Woodstock...or what's their name's,:? need good workers....or men or women... to run or open a new super-store.....a store...I'm here...yep....I need a good job....think I could go the distance & then some more.....encourage women to join & enjoy woodwork....don't know if I could encourage men to do much of anything other than woodwork....don't think they'll need their arms twistted so much......

Loving this thread...thankyou all for you wonderful supporst....cut all the buiscuts slots today...just over 64 in base & top.....
Gluing tomorrow...
Good meeting at cancer support group today...walked in sat down and then looked at my finger-nails....oh...crap....yep need to know what cleans it up pretty good too?
sincerely thanks...KEKEMO :2tsup:

Kekemo,

as I told you early in this thread, many people; many ways of using shellac.

On the issue of making the rubber you notice that Macs and I have different views. It's a point we have discussed and agreed to differ. Mac says his works well for him, so be it. My way was the way I was taught by "Ye Olde English Craftsman" he was old back in the fifties. Worked quite a bit for antique "restorers" and hated the "b******s" "Want the best and pay the worst". I never accept anything without question and asked him why that way of making a rubber. "Charge from the back means a natural filter, my son. And it's a fuller reservoir so yer see squeeze control of the amount dispensed is easy."

One point I didn't make clearly is my aversion to pre mixed shellac. Flakes keep almost indefinitely if well stored. I only mix enough for the job in hand, plus a bit more.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

Neil's book has a much more detailed process for making the rubber, which I follow in part to make my pads. It more or less agrees with the method posted by Jerry. He also recommends adding the polish to the top of the rubber, never to the bottom. I've found this to be good advice, because I have occasionally had undissolved material or foreign matter find it's way into my jar and it can't get on the work if the polish has to go through the rubber to get there.

I hope Neil doesn't mind if I post this little comment from his book which accompanies his instructions on making a rubber:

"There are other slightly easier, but less practical and less efficient ways of making a rubber. However we will leave them to the handful of geniuses who always think they know a better way than the time honoured way the professionals do it."

:)

Kekemo,

Link to the book here http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html mail order is a wonderful thing! Also, the Wild dingo is in your area, PM him he may be avble to help you,

As I said before, its the technique, and not in the way one makes the pad, those in the UK and in the AUS make a "rubber", we over here make a padding ball.

You, and the others here are familar with your technique of making the rubber, its no better then our way, nor worst then our way.

Iits not the rubber or the pad that makes for fine polishing, its in the tecnique of knowing how to polish.

I only sent the photo to show what the pads looks like, I am sure not many of you have ever seen a "pad" before, or I even heard of one.

Just like over here, the only polishers that use the term "rubber" are those who come over here from the UK and AUS..

Interesting. I've got a book here written by a fellow called Jeff Jewitt. It's called "Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing". I'm pretty sure he's an American author. He shows two techniques for applying shellac: one 'French Polishing', the other 'Padding Shellac'.

Although he avoids the term 'rubber', preferring to call it a 'pad for French Polishing' (possibly because 'rubber' has a different connotation), he describes the item as a "two-part pad made from an outer muslin cover and an absorbent inner cotton or wool core". He says that "the traditional pad for French polishing consists of wool wrapped with a linen cloth".

For padding shellac, he recommends a lint-free absorbent cloth wadded up into ball so that there are no wrinkles or seams on the bottom.

He goes on to describe the aircraft taking off and landing technique.

So I would suggest that what you describe as French Polishing in your extract above is actually what this author calls 'padding shellac', or something more akin to it.

Glourious thread....wow....interesting reading...but hope I haven't managed to open....I was going to say "can of worms"....but think in this case I should say...."bucket of bugs"....lol...:C

Yes.... information is the basis...how we apply the information is up to us...and what techniques we use...are drafted by our character & personal application of product.....I am thankful for the advice...& knowledge that you have all given. I do appreicate your time & wisdom, hoping that I can become a skill crafts woman....who can one day pass on her own knowledge gleaned from my experience with the gorgeous product....:rolleyes:

So smooth. so easy. so inexpensive................So......I'm off to shed to throw this bed together....looks bloody great....feels better...only bed that I can say..."bed feels good" and not even be laying in it! :U

"Sh..ED's waiting........."
KEKEMO:2tsup:

Silent C

I know Jeff, he is a very knowledgable finisher.

This is my 2 cents on the subject.

French Polishing is a much more refined process, it is much more complex and requires more time to complete the French Polish finish.

I have mentioned pumice and rottensrtone on the forum before, these rubbing and polishing powders are used in some of the French Polishing process.

Wheras, padding shellac is a fast process of applying a coating with a pad or rubber instead of using a brush to apply the coatings.

The reason he avoids the term "rubber" is because it is not used over here.

Regarding, making up the "pad", althrogh it is normally made as Jeff describes it, I personally use a 12" x 12" piece of either trace or cheese cloth to make up the entire ball, the cloth inside the ball makes up the resoirvour (sp) so I don't use the cotton batting as Jeff does. Its a matter of preference, I have been doing this for over 50 years.

It is commonly taught as a airplane landing and then taking off, it makes it easy to describe to the students.

Did Jeff mention about padding lacquers and varnishes., these other padding agents are done as the same as the French Polish or the padding lacquers.

There are sections on various lacquer application techniques but he doesn't mention padding. He talks about 'wiping varnish' but not padding - possibly the same thing but he uses a flat folded cloth, rather than a wadded ball.

What I wanted to point out was that he, as an American and a published author in finishing techniques, still uses the traditional form of pad for French polishing and only uses a pad similar to your own when padding shellac. He might not call it a rubber, but it is by no means a custom limited to the UK and Australia as you suggested.

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Originally Posted by MacS

I only sent the photo to show what the pads looks like, I am sure not many of you have ever seen a "pad" before, or I even heard of one.

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My my, aren't the poppies tall this year. :)

There are sections on various lacquer application techniques but he doesn't mention padding. He talks about 'wiping varnish' but not padding - possibly the same thing but he uses a flat folded cloth, rather than a wadded ball.

No, its not padding, it would be like what you would call "wipe on oil finishes."

What, I wanted to point out was that he, as an American and a published author in finishing techniques, still uses the traditional form of pad for French polishing and only uses a pad similar to your own when padding shellac. He might not call it a rubber, but it is by no means a custom limited to the UK and Australia as you suggested.

I am not familar with all the countries that use a "rubber", I think the French also do. Its very rare to see " french polishers" using a rubber over here unless they are transplants.

Personally, I favor knowing the technique over whatever pad or rubber someone uses to do their french polishing or padding with lacquers.

Bob,

Spot on.
When it gets to who's right and who's wrong I'm reminded of Jonathan Swift. Remember Gulliver's Travels? He had a delightful story of a war between the "Big enders" and the "Little enders". About what was the right way to crack a boiled egg.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

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I favor knowing the technique over whatever pad or rubber someone uses

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Well that would depend on whether or not you believe the technique is also comprised of the tools that are used. No doubt I could wave a piece of sponge or a scrunched up newspaper soaked in shellac in a manner imitating that used by French polishers but with dramatically poorer results. So you would have to concede that the form of the pad is important.

It then just remains to determine whether the traditional form of the rubber is more suited to the task than a wadded up ball of some material. I'm not expert enough to argue on that, so I'll leave that to others.

I'm also interested to note that your article makes no mention of the figure eight or circular movements that I usually associate with French polishing. Is that included as part of the technique, or is it also considered optional?

Mac

Can't help you with what the French name for a rubber is, I doubt it is "rubber" but the Spanish word is muneca which means rag doll.

Just an addition to the waves of viewpoint and information this thread has, and always does, generate.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

Silent,

Your point about interrelation between tool and technique is a very valid one. Using an analogy from woodwork, although both work, a sharp chisel does the work better than a blunt one.

Jerry


Everyone is entitled to my opinion

You guys do it your way, i'll stay with the pad and do it my way.

I thought it might be interesting to some of you to know french polishing is also done with a pad, I already knew what a "rubber" was I am sure some did not.

Jerry C, your right about the Spanish name "muneca," I heard and read that term before in some french polishing instructions on guitars..