Questions about noggings...

Hi guys,

Just wondering about noggings, I seem to have a different opinion to my friend about how to measure them.
Couple of questions:

1: I was under the impression that noggings are supposed to be measured from the bottom plate in order to keep the studs of a wall straight and pull them back in if they bow laterally. I am sure I have read this somewhere. He believes that it's fine to measure from where you are going to put the nogging itself.

Which is correct?

2: Also, if you have 2 sets of noggins to place into a high wall, where exactly do you measure them from? Both from the bottom plate?

Cheers,

Combo.

I'll be interested to see what everybody else says, but for my part, if I have my translation correct:

1. AFAIK, you're both kind of right. Either would work, but your way would make the stud easier to hit through plaster down the road. They have another purpose (at least in the states, where it's called blocking) , and that is to prevent fire from climbing the wall cavity to the eaves easily.

2. I would divide the height of the wall into quarters, and put them on the two middle marks. Note that you have to stagger them up and down to shoot them in with a nail gun, so you don't mount them at the exact same place across the wall. Overall, they create rigidity as well, and rigidity and fire blocking are the two main purposes.

Use a level, get the studs straight.

You shouldn't be introducing any forces onto the structure by trying to straighten a bent stud.

Measure at the point of installation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bricks

Use a level, get the studs straight.

You shouldn't be introducing any forces onto the structure by trying to straighten a bent stud.

Measure at the point of installation.

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Are you saying to plumb each stud once the wall has been erected then measure the distance? Wouldn't that just replicate the distance at the bottom plate?

And Eli yeah it would help with attaching plaster board.

:think: It depends.

Ideally, you should be able to measure at the bottom plate and that'd be the same as at point of installation. Up to around a 1/2" bow is fine to pull in, but anything beyond that is too much. IMHO, any timber that bent shouldn't have been used for a stud in the first place, but there are times it's unavoidable. eg. working on old, pre-existing frames.

Consequently, if I was framing a new wall from scratch I'd measure from the bottom stud. On the other hand, if I was fitting noggins to an old, existing wall where the studs have warped and twisted from age I'd be measuring at the POI.

When you build a stud wall, most of your noggings are going to be the same length, except for the ends and for any intersecting walls, doors etc. So for example if you are using 90 x 45 @ 450 centres, you can cut a pile of noggings 405mm long - there is no need to measure them if you have accurately set the studs out and nailed it to your setout. If you want to measure them, or for the noggings at the end or against openings, you measure them at the plate, not at the middle.All studs will then be straight.You don't plumb each stud individually either.Set the plates out together, plumb the end and all studs will then be plumb.Noggings are not there to fix plaster to.Plaster does not need to be supported at the joins.If you are going to put two rows of noggings in (only if your wall is more than 2.7), then divide it in to 3,not 4. Measure from either the bottom plate or the top at each end, and chalk a line - don't measure them individually.At the end of the day Combo, you are correct and your mate is wrong.

Tools

No,

I'm saying that if you try to true up a stud that is out of plumb/ bowed then it will naturally try to spring back.

This can cause problems for your wall.

If you take your time and make each stud plumb and true as you build the wall, then the distance will be the same no matter where you measure the noggin from.

Thanks for all the responses.

There seem to be some differing opinions here. The way I see it is that in order to straighten the studs they should be measured at the bottom. Plumbing each stud seems pretty time consuming, and just measuring at the middle point will just replicate any lateral bow.

I have to be careful here though as my mate is also my boss in this case!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tools

When you build a stud wall, most of your noggings are going to be the same length, except for the ends and for any intersecting walls, doors etc.

If you want to measure them, or for the noggings at the end or against openings, you measure them at the plate, not at the middle.
Tools

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Tools, what do you mean when you say the length of the noggings at the end will be different? I remember something about that from ages ago but can you refresh my memory? The end noggings are measured differently to the others?

The main reason nog's are used in load bearing walls is to restain the studs from buckling laterally under long term load.
The AS1684 code assumes 1350mm maximum spacing for the span tables,
this restricts a single row to a nominal 2.7m height.

From experience, using kd pine material, any stud that can't be straightened should'nt be used (use for nog's instead).
If the plates are marked accurately for nog positions, simply batch cut the standard nog's. Then at the ends, undercut these nog's by about 3mm and fix.
It is OK for the ends to be hollow a bit, as the top and bottom plates always join.

Peter

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComboSquare

Tools, what do you mean when you say the length of the noggings at the end will be different? I remember something about that from ages ago but can you refresh my memory? The end noggings are measured differently to the others?

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End noggings (blocking) are different because that's where you make up the odd-ball stud spacing to suit the wall length, unless the design has taken standard stud spacing into account and all stud spacings are equal. Practically impossible except for the simplest of structures.

Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bricks

No,

I'm saying that if you try to true up a stud that is out of plumb/ bowed then it will naturally try to spring back.

This can cause problems for your wall.

If you take your time and make each stud plumb and true as you build the wall, then the distance will be the same no matter where you measure the noggin from.

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when you straighten a wall you crimp the stud so it cant spring back, and when your framing the wall you put all the studs that are bowed facing out (exterior).. the studs will bow naturally anyway in the weather its not worth getting them perfect now.. just before the wall is ready for lining or cladding then you go along with a straight edge and straighten them all

I think there's a bit of confusion on the term straighten.
Straighten as in the spacings [nog length] not straighten as in for plaster fixing - or am I up the creek

Combo to both your questions - yes, the bottom plate [or top plate]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ComboSquare

Tools, what do you mean when you say the length of the noggings at the end will be different? I remember something about that from ages ago but can you refresh my memory? The end noggings are measured differently to the others?

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Joe's response is what I meant. YOur wall is not likely to be in even multiples of 450, nor will your openings work at 450. So those nogs will be shorter.

Tools

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sports fan

when you straighten a wall you crimp the stud so it cant spring back, and when your framing the wall you put all the studs that are bowed facing out (exterior).. the studs will bow naturally anyway in the weather its not worth getting them perfect now.. just before the wall is ready for lining or cladding then you go along with a straight edge and straighten them all

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Sportsfan, what do you mean by " crimp the stud"?

Tools

Well I wasn't disappointed. See how everybody does it differently? Note that I don't think I read one single comment that was wrong. Every one of those guys sound like they'd deal with the situation right or not get in it.

Just out of curiosity, I didn't really hear anybody say they built the wall laying down on the floor and stand it up. Don't you guys do this or did I miss something.

I gotta get the English to English translation plugin fixed on my laptop

I forgot it isn't standard practice here to only screw plasterboard is it? You guys just clamp it with screws to let the adhesive set and then pull and fill the screw holes?

Nah, screws around the edges, stud adhesive through the middle, screws left in & filled with basecoat.

I'll build the wall on the floor and stand it up whenever possible. I usually cut all the nogs bar the two end ones and fit them while the wall is lying down as it makes the wall more rigid and easier to stand single handed (which is how most of my work has always been done). Unless you're fitting sheeting vertically so that needs so it needs to fall on the studs it doesn't really matter if the nog spacing creeps a bit due to variations in stud thickness etc. Once the wall is stood I fit the last two nogs, using them to straighten the end studs if neccessary.

I don't stagger the noggings, rather I snap a line and nail through one side of the stud into the end grain of the nog (well both ends on the first nog) the next nog gets nailed through the same way on one end and then nails are slightly skewed through the stud at the other end. I rest the side of nail gun tip on top of the preceeding nog and angle slightly down.

I think by "crimp" the stud Sportsfan might be refferring to the practice which is also called "crippling". Ie, cut partway through the face of the stud on the hollow side, pull it out towards the hollow, drive in a wedge to hold it straight and then reinforce on either side with some offcuts of stud.

Mick

What Mick said. :yes:

Any particular reason you don't stagger your nog's, Mick? Just asking 'cos I do the same but I've no real reason for it except "'cos that's how I do it." :B With a nailgun it's just as easy as staggering, makes it easier to find a nog once the wall's lined (as they're all the same height) and IMHO looks better, so why not?