Advice Pls - Neighbour wants to put drainage on my property

After some heavy afternoon storms in Sydney this week my neighbour comes and knocks on my door and tells me "we have a problem". He is not happy about the amount of storm water that is running across his front yard from my property. I put forward the suggestion that his retaining wall that runs two thirds of our boundary is causing the water to back up and flow onto his property at one particular point rather than over the entire length of the boundary. With that he got fired up and didn't want to discuss the matter further, other than to demand that I install drainage that allowed this water to run to the street and not across his property.

BACKGROUND INFO:
Oh his side there is a 500mm tall concrete retaining wall that runs along our boundary from the end of the backyard to the front of the house - a good two thirds of the length of the property border. Storm water pools in my backyard against this wall. Because it can't escape over/through the wall, the bulk of this water is flowing across his front yard where the retaining wall ends. (There are weep holes in this wall but they are not too effective at draining large volumes of water after a heavy downpour). My backyard floods slightly but it does not phase me too much as it tends to drain away withing a couple of hours of the rain stopping.

BACK TO THE STORY
Today the neighbour's wife knocks on the door with a tradie. They are now requesting that this tradie digs a trench and installs ag pipe the length of our property to direct the water to the footpath. The catch - they want it to be done on my property as I have grass/garden beds running the length of the border while the neighbour has a concrete path on his side. They are willing for the work to be done totally at their expense.

I am not so sure about the notion of the work to be done on my side when I don't have an issue with the water. I am racking my brains trying to think of all the potential ramifications. I enquired about the tradie's insurance cover and the scope of the work. He says he has appropriate cover and apparently 5 blokes will dig a trench by hand, lay the pipe and then backfill - no machinery.

What else should I consider?
Will I become responsible in any way for this drainage as it is on my property - i.e. if it becomes less effective over time will it be my responsibility to maintain?
Does the potential exist for the council to instruct me to remove it for any reason?
Should I talk to a solicitor?

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Originally Posted by Hybrid

Should I talk to a solicitor?

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I have no idea about the practical part, but feel that whatever you do, you should get a contract and put the whole situation in writing. You don't want surprises later...

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Originally Posted by Hybrid

Does the potential exist for the council to instruct me to remove it for any reason?
Should I talk to a solicitor?

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> Does the potential exist for the council to instruct me to remove it for any reason?
That's what you have to ask the Council:)

> Should I talk to a solicitor?
Sounds like it,
Council might give a suitable answer first, though:?

I'd be very careful on what precedence is set.

You should check with your local water authority (usually the local council), but in almost all jurisdictions you do have a problem with the water as state and local government regs mandate that you must deal with all storm water on your property and are not to allow it to run onto the property of others.

So you can catch it into tanks, use swales, mulch beds, water courses, reed beds etc to ensure that it soaks into your garden and remains on your land, or direct it to the stormwater drains that must be connected to the town stormwater infrastructure - most commonly into the gutters in your street, but sometimes into storm water drains directly.

What does this mean in this case - well if your neighbour is willing to pay to have work done that is in fact your responsibility anyway you are being offered a good deal. You might wish to go ahead with it, but if the neighbour is smart enough to seek some advice from council too you might end up paying for it anyway - even some time after the work is done.

In any case it pays to be on good terms with your neighbours so perhaps you should have another chat after you get the facts and suggest a shared approach.

Crikey you blokes!

What happened to the concept of being a good neighbour? It sounds like a perfectly reasonable deal to me.

What if he says, to heck with it and just builds a six foot block wall along his boundary?

If the pipe blocks, you're now worse than you are now.

cheers,

P
:rolleyes:

Definately question the council.
Im not fond of ag lines, seems no matter how well they are in, they silt up and are near impossible to clean out. If its only the water at the front of the wall, maybe a pit there with a direct line to the street would be sufficient, easy maintenance. but its just a thought as I can only picture these questions as best I can.

Good luck
Davo

I agree with Bloss.
I remember from some where that you are responsible for storm water leaving your property and must prevent it entering a neighbors place.

I think you are being offered a good deal.

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Originally Posted by Hybrid

BACK TO THE STORY
Today the neighbour's wife knocks on the door with a tradie. They are now requesting that this tradie digs a trench and installs ag pipe the length of our property to direct the water to the footpath. The catch - they want it to be done on my property as I have grass/garden beds running the length of the border while the neighbour has a concrete path on his side. They are willing for the work to be done totally at their expense.

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Unsaddle Trigger and help your neighbour out. :rolleyes:

I also agree with Bloss. Legally you are required to deal with the water escaping from your property and stop it from doing so.

If you were my neighbour you would have had to fix it much earlier at your own expense. I wouldn't have paid towards it all but ensured you did it.

So get over it and let your neighbour do it before he decides to make you pay.


Peter.

Its funny the talk of having to stop stormwater leaving your property to someone elses - we were wanting to install a raised garden/retaining wall and were told the opposite by council - that we can't do anything that would stop the natural flow of the water as it can cause flooding, either in our place or next doors.

On a side note, I'm tempted to talk to our neighbours about their water tank - since its been installed instead of pouring rain overflowing their gutters onto their property, it now seems to first overflow the top of their tank, and run into our property. And when it peeves down, thats a lot of water. These are the same ones who put bricks along the bottom of the colorbond fence so when we whipper snip they don't get blades of grass coming under the fence onto their driveway!!!!! Don't you just love neighbours!

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Originally Posted by dazzler

Unsaddle Trigger and help your neighbour out. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

So get over it and let your neighbour do it before he decides to make you pay.

Peter.

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Gees, some harsh responses there. I am honestly not trying to make it difficult for him - I simply don't want it to come back and bite me if I say yes. To be honest at this point in time I am inclined to give him the go ahead.

I am very cautious of any dealings with this bloke. This neighbour has a reputation in the street if being somewhat of a loose cannon. He has verbally abused neighbours guests for parking their cars in front of his house - on a public street. He has threatned my old tenants with a hammer and hosed inside their car when it was parked on my driveway with the windows down. Last year he was escorted to an ambulance by six Police officers after some sort of altercation with his wife one Sunday morning. From my conversations with him over the last 8 years I am of the belief that the guy is irrational and not the full quid.

I didn't want to bring it up in the original post as I thought I would just have made it too long winded but to put things into perpective for you .... when I first bought my place about 8 years ago, I rented it out for 5 years before moving in in 2005. Back in 2002 my tentants complained to me about the backyard flooding. I spoke with the neighbour and he wasn't interested in helping me to alleviate the problem. I involved the local council and the council recommended that my neighbour increase the number of weepholes in his retaining wall. The neighbour disagreed but the council was either powerless or too gutless to demand that he do this. My tennants stopped complaining about it so I didn't pursue the matter. Now the tables have turned and he wants rectify the problem but wants to do it on his terms.

I don't really have an issue with the drainage being installed on my property. I just want to consider all the potential problems down the track before I am stuck with a problem.

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

I also agree with Bloss. Legally you are required to deal with the water escaping from your property and stop it from doing so.

If you were my neighbour you would have had to fix it much earlier at your own expense. I wouldn't have paid towards it all but ensured you did it.

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Surely there must be some reasonable discretion with this ruling. It is not as if every time it rains that a mass of water flows onto his property. We are talking once or twice a year when there is a massive dump of rain within a short period of time. Also, it is not as if my guttering or downpipes are defective and leaking, it is purely water landing on the backyard grass and then pooling at the lowest point. I truly believe that his wall is creating the problem by backing the water up. If there were sufficient drain holes in his wall the water would be dispersed over a larger area.

It's the deal of the century! Your neighbour is willing to pay to take care of what is legally your responsibility. Go to see tham ASAP and say you'' take them up on their offer, adding that you were a bit overwhelmed at it all and wasn't sure what to do. Bake them a cake, send them flowers, whatever, they're saving you serious money, I mean how much is it going to cost for 5 blokes to dig a trench. BTW, with the original problem, I'd say the reason the council didn't enforce the increased drain holes option was because, like others have said, water falling on your property has to stay on your property or discharge to the stormwater drains.

Mick

I think that you are are on the wrong track.. it is not a storm water problem...that is piped to the street.
This is ground water and you are not allowed to change the natural flow of the water. Imagine the houses built on a slope then every house would need to build a rubble drain to stop the natural flow. The neighbor by building a retaining wall has stopped the natural flow he should have put a drain between the wall and the fence alignment when it was built, it is his fault check with the council.
les

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Originally Posted by les88

I think that you are are on the wrong track.. it is not a storm water problem...that is piped to the street.
This is ground water and you are not allowed to change the natural flow of the water. Imagine the houses built on a slope then every house would need to build a rubble drain to stop the natural flow. The neighbor by building a retaining wall has stopped the natural flow he should have put a drain between the wall and the fence alignment when it was built, it is his fault check with the council.
les

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This is my opinion as well, although it seems to differ from most who have replied here.:?

There have been a few recommendations to check with the council over this matter. It appears that my local council do not have jurisdiction in this area. This is from their website.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2041/councilyb6.jpg

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Originally Posted by Hybrid

Surely there must be some reasonable discretion with this ruling. It is not as if every time it rains that a mass of water flows onto his property. We are talking once or twice a year when there is a massive dump of rain within a short period of time.

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No point in checking with the council as it's a state legislative matter, at least in Vic.

In this legislation there is no allowances for discretion, neither for regular occurrances or the 100 year rainfall, for our local council had to pay damages which occurred at the last flooding because their drainage works turned out to be inadequate.

In January my daughters house got flooded because of the heavy rain and water entering her property because of earth works associated with Eastlink constructions two streets away and they have paid for all the damages including hotel costs whilst the clean up was being done.

Hence my comments that it's your problem and not your neighbour.


Peter.

Les may be right (I don't beleive he is) -but what is done is done. Now you are allowing surface water to enter your neighbours property which is illegal.

Do as Mick, Sturdee and others are telling you - work with your neighbour and fix the problem.

Now just a cotton pickin' minute. The situation as I understand it is that at some point before this wall was built, there was open access for run off to run from one property to the next and there was no issue because it was allowed to disperse across a wide area. Both back yards would be wet (because it is raining) but no-one was pointing fingers about who's water it was.

Now the neighbour comes along and builds a retaining wall for most of the length of the property, giving this same water nowhere to go except through a single point at one end of the wall. Somehow this is not the neighbour's fault? Isn't he responsible for the change in the natural flow of the water? Isn't it his wall that has created the problem?

I've heard this idea before that you must prevent storm water from your property from flowing onto adjoining properties. I believe that refers to collected water, so you can't empty a gutter or a downpipe onto a neighbour's land of course. Natural run off is a different story. Does every property in Sydney have a spoon drain running the length of the boundary to make sure that no water falling on one property makes it to the next? No, I didn't think so.

I disagree that it's anyone's problem but the neighbour's and I think the fact he's offered to pay to fix it indicates he has realised this. He might have even sought advice on it himself.

As to whether you should let him do it, I don't see any problem with it. But I have doubts that it is going to work because you're talking about a large amount of surface run off during a storm and no ag pipe under 4" of blue metal and 3" of turf is going to handle that. It's not going to have time to percolate down into the drain. You need a surface drain. I reckon a pit at the worst point is the best option.

I do understand what it is like to deal with a difficult and irrational neighbour. In this case I'd question the Ag line as others have said and consider a pit with PVC to the kerb. Have another chat to the plumber and check with the council. However it does seem like a reasonable deal, just a bit unfortunate that in all liklihood he will not respond to any issues you have. You are on a bit of a no win here, but at least he is offering to pay, which may mean he has taken advice, who knows.

Alot of people are telling you that it's your resonsibility, I don't think so.

Why? Because when the retaining wall was built it should have ( being in an area prone to ponding and flooding) had an ag line installed underneath to facilitate the removal of stormwater from the foundations of the retaining wall.

The ag drain for his retaining wall will have to go onto his side of the property- Check with your local building regulator.

The reason is that you should be able to do whatever you like to your property without his becoming structuraly unsound. The ag drain should have been there in the first place.

But if he'ss going to pay for it, I'd get one put in on your side so that your backyard is protected too.

As silent C said, use a pit if you can-

I tend to agree with SilentC, that there is a distinction between stormwater (collected on the roof) and natural run off, and from the description it sounds like the neighbour has altered the flow of the natural runoff on his own property.
I reckon he created his own problem, however if you can assist him to rectify it, then I think you should considered it.

I think you should tell him you've taken advice and he needs to take down his wall and re-build it as it should have been in the first place with adequate drainage.

If he'd come to you and said

"Look mate any chance of doing me a favour to sort out this water problem only I'll have have to take down the whole wall and start again otherwise. I'm happy to pay for it and make sure you're garden is put back to how it was before."

I'd have agreed that it seems like a reasonable request and to work with him to sort it out. But he is obviously a total tosser, losing his rag and sending over his wife so I'd tell him to get stuffed no great loss from what you've said so far.

HH.

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he is obviously a total tosser, losing his rag and sending over his wife so I'd tell him to get stuffed no great loss from what you've said so far.

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This is not the manner to resolve differences with neighbours. Why inflame an already tense situation. From my experience women are more than capable of firing up situations and I suspect the wife did not need too much sending over. You may live next to this family for years and it would be better to sit down over a beer and work out an amicable solution to the problem than getting involved in arguments and with lawyers and the like. A financial contribution by you offered in good faith will go a long way towards building a better relationship with the family. We often get a little fired up over big issues like this and often both parties genuinely believe they are the agrieved party.

Get the facts correct from the authorities and then sit down rationally and discuss how the problem can be solved amicably is my advice. You never know you might find out the couple are great neighbours who will make living there so much more enjoyable.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by juan

This is not the manner to resolve differences with neighbours. Why inflame an already tense situation. From my experience women are more than capable of firing up situations and I suspect the wife did not need too much sending over. You may live next to this family for years and it would be better to sit down over a beer and work out an amicable solution to the problem than getting involved in arguments and with lawyers and the like. A financial contribution by you offered in good faith will go a long way towards building a better relationship with the family. We often get a little fired up over big issues like this and often both parties genuinely believe they are the agrieved party.

Get the facts correct from the authorities and then sit down rationally and discuss how the problem can be solved amicably is my advice. You never know you might find out the couple are great neighbours who will make living there so much more enjoyable.

Cheers

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And if that doesn't work and the bloke continues to be a tosser because he thinks he's got one over on you?

HH.

When I lived in Sydney I had surface water running over the back yard, so a foot in from the fence I built a concrete wall 4 inches thick by 12 inches high. Worked a treat the water was diverted from my property. The building inspector knocked on the door.. what have you done here.. eh. Don't you know that you cannot divert surface water....no Sir. Well you can't get rid of the wall.. Yes Sir.
I now live on a slope and the water from 1/2 a mile away runs down thru all the yards, the lucky one lives on the top of the hill I am 3/4 the way down the bloke at the bottom is the worst off. A rubble drain will not stop surface water, It would have to be an open drain.
1. Tell him to extend his retaining wall to the street
2. Tell him to reduce the height of his wall so that the water is not diverted.
3. Tell the law that his retaining wall is causing the water to back up on your property
4. Let him waste his money by building an agg drain
5. If it was me I would tell him to get *****k
les

I will agree with the people who state that since it seems to be ground water not storm water from gutters etc there is no onus on you to fix it. I will relate a somewhat similar problem on my place. We live halfway down hill and when it rains heavily (as it has been recently) water from our neighbours uphill floods the back of the yard and into the garden shed and then runs on into next next yard down hill.
There was an agg pipe in the ground which ran right around the rear perimeter to the road but this was blocked and ineffective. I replaced this pipe in a gravelled trench but it also blocked up with roots etc within a fairly short time.
Final answer was to place three drain grates parallel with neighbours fence connect them with 90mm flexible unslotted drain which ran right around perimeter to road.
This works fine but still cant cope with really heavy rain but clears the water away in a very short time. We still get a continous trickle of water along the the subsoil and through our retaining wall into the drains for weeks if not up to two months after heavy rain. There is reputed to be a spring further up the hill and the bloke three doors up has apparently put in a bore to use this water(not confirmed).
My opinion: I would let your neighbour dig his trench totally at his cost and make it clear to him you are doing him a great favour. Since it is only rain runoff you have no responsibility to do anything about it. If his wall is diverting the flow he created the problem by not having proper drainage installed at the start.
In a way it is to both your advantage to get rid of the excess water. Saves his wall and stops your backyard being sodden. But do not use slotted agg pipe. Get him to install drains grates and min 90mm pipe to the road way.

I'd see a solicitor and make sure it cannot come back and bite you on the bum some time in the future but after that's sorted out let him pay for the drain.

UPDATE:

I went into my local council today and consulted with a council engineer. He was very helpful. He pulled up aerial photographs of my property and the neighbour's property which had contour infromation overlayed on the map. He was able to determine the natural fall of the land from this information.

After explaining the situation and the nature of the neighbour's retaining wall, he speculated that the wall would not have been approved by council and agreed that it would be blocking the natural flow. He was of the opinion that the neighbour is totally responsible for any action to rectify the situation.

He strongly recommended that a D.A be submitted to council prior to any trench or drain being created. This way council could advise if the solution was effective and met all relevant rules and regs. Also, this drainage system would be documented as being "approved" should I ever want to sell the property. He suggested that I be very careful in permitting any work to be carried out on my property at the request of a neighbour. He suggested that the neighbour should be undertaking the work on his side if he wanted to address this issue.

I am concerned on a couple of fronts. Firstly, the neighbour engaged a fencing contractor to provide quotation on the trench and drainage (didn't mention this in my original post). He may be a friend or something - not sure. I have real concerns about a fencing guy doing drainage. I would feel more comfortable about a plumber undertaking the work. Also I have my stormwater pipes running along the same area that this trench would be dug. I am worried that a carefree labourer may damage the PVC pipes and not worry about notifying me or fixing it.

Will be talking to a builder friend tomorrow to get his views on the way it should be done....

Sounds straight forward to me. It's his problem and he can fix it by putting a pit on his property at the point where the water is running around his wall. Tell him that in the interests of neighbourly relations you've decided you wont be seeking through the courts to have the wall removed, despite the fact it is causing drainage problems on your property.

I wouldn't let his fencing mate set foot on my property if I was you.

Hi Hybrid

sorry if I sounded harsh........(dazzler said sorry :doh:) but without the further info it did sound like trigger was all saddled up and ready to go :p

best of luck

dazzler

Just fill your land a little so it doesn't pond and all goes over the wall.
Does your block fall to the road?

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

Just fill your land a little so it doesn't pond and all goes over the wall.
Does your block fall to the road?

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Well the front yard does, but the majority of the fall drops towards my good neighbour's property (basically from the front of my house all the way to the rear boundary).

you know my views on this problem. I would be very careful of letting him or his workers on my property. Say you let him build this drain and we all know that it won't solve the problem then he might come back at you by saying that by letting the drain be installed you knew that the problem was yours
les

If its a normal house block you shouldn't have a natural drain path running through it. His construction of he wall may have disrupted a drain.
We cant direct any water toward any property. (I do subdivisions for a living)

The council engineer is whose advice you should be taking. The root problem is the wall and that is what should be fixed, there shouldn't be need for additional drainage etc if the wall is right... Tell (nicely and politely) your neighbour to get the wall fixed, or put extra drainage on HIS property...

Definitely don't let the fencing bloke start diggin trenches you'll be in a world of pain before you know it.

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

(I do subdivisions for a living)

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you poor bugga :D

Come on Hybrid tell him to bugger off I can't wait to hear his reaction.:U

As has been said before his wall his problem.:2tsup:

HH.

That council advice is simple CYA - imagine sending people off to talk to lawyers as a first step?!

It actually comes from common law precedents, but there are a variety of governing laws and they will vary state by state.

As has been said - it seems like an OK deal and the bloke is one to stay on the good side of - neighbour disputes are a big money earner for the legal fraternity and are some of the most common matters in mediation centres and small claims courts.

The reason to be cautious is to CYA when work is being done on your property - and anything that arises from that work that affects you or others.

First test of all law is reasonableness - what would a reasonable person do in any similar situation. So as I said, chat with him and work out a solution together - any solution that is imposed by others will be likely unsatisfactory to one or other parties - and often both!

Hybrid

I have to mostly agree with Silent

The situation as described is two adjacent blocks yours and his.
From the front of your house to the rear of your block the land naturally slopes towards your neighbour's block.
When it rains, surface water will follow the natural fall of the land, i.e. it will run from your block onto his. Such is life and one of the reasons properties higher up a hill are more sought after.

Your neighbour has built a retaining wall, from the description it is well within his property and less than 500mm high — usually very good pointers to no DA being required or sought. If the wall were on the boundary there would be a DA and with conditions that addressed the potential run-off problem.

So now when it rains, the water ponds on your land and runs along his wall and then across his front yard and then out into the street.


The problem is wholely your neighbours.
DO NOT let him build a drain on your property because if he does the problem will become yours unless you cede (either by sale or easement) the land occupied by the drain to him.

You don't want to become involved because the obvious solution — a drain to the street — is not necessarily the solution.

In parts of Sydney — North Sydney and Baulkham Hills are two areas I know of — you are not supposed to even pipe roof run-off to the street. Your down pipes are supposed to connect to an absorption trench (which will overflow in heavy rain).
The reasons being that the natural surface and ground water flows are retained and storm water drains away slowly rather than hitting the local creek in a rush and causing flooding.

Added to which are minor "technical" details such as directing water from one catchment to another. You don't want flooding two streets away to be traced to "your" new drain.


Lastly, the idea of not directing storm water onto your neighbour's land only applies to water in a pipe or drain. (or flowing along the base of a wall)
In practice you terminate your down pipes into an absorption trench.
When the trench overflows the water becomes surface water which is allowed to flow in accordance with the natural surface contours until it meets a drain (or wall) whereupon it becomes the drain owner's problem, that is until the drain discharges into a creek.


I'm a road engineer and spent much of my early professional life dealing with this precise issue — turning water collected in a culvert back into surface water so it can be discharged.



ian<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

In your discussions with the council engineer did you ask:-

* Was the retaining wall approved by council?

* Was it built to the approved specifications?

* Is council concerned by the interruption of ground water flow?