eBay experience - Am I crazy?

I recently won an auction for a fielding plane on eBay.

Here is the link ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EOIBSA:US:1123

The Seller stated

A great collectors and users plane

A very solid plane in what looks like a fruitwood but with an adjustable metal slide. Some 10"(25 cm.) long with a 2 1/4" bladein good condition.

Ready for immediate use or display

and supplied these pictures ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ldingplane.jpg

The pictures were not great, I thought from the blade looked a little short (as the wedge appeared to be near the top) but the Seller had a 99.5% record with 374 sales, so I accepted his word that the plane would be a user.

For a skew fielding plane it was quite cheap ($30 USD + $15 USD postage from VIC to WA).

The plane arrived yesterday, and to say I was disappointed would be an understatement. Here are pictures of this "user" that is "ready for immediate use" ...

The blade and cap iron together:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...de-capiron.jpg

The blade ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ther/Blade.jpg

The wedge ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ther/Wedge.jpg

The mouth:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ther/Mouth.jpg

I wrote to the Seller ...

This plane has nil life left in the blade. It is in as poor a condition as it could ever be possible to be and still fit in the plane! It does not look like it has been used for many, many years. The fence is an add on (not original). There is no way that this plane is ever going to be used to build furniture (which is what I do). Your advert is simply untrue.

Please reply. I am most disappointed, as you can gather from the tone of my reply. This plane needs to be returned with a full refund.

Regards

He wrote back ...

Hello Derek.
We have a problem of perception here.

I see you are a pediatrician. I have been a professional furniture maker for over 30 years. Specialising in hand made commision work. So, with all due respect , I do happen to know a bit about hand tools.

The panel plane is an old continental plane. It is in very good shape for its age As you say it has not been used for many years, I can not see that is an objective problem

The fence is the original and I got it in France with that one on it. The metal fence is often on continental planes. The blade is not new, or I would have said it was a replacement, but it is in good condition as I stated.

What I am saying is that I completely disagree with your post- purchase opinion of the plane

I see that you have 99.5 % feedback as I do. You ask for full refund for what seems to me to be an unwarranted complaint,

If you pay to mail the plane back to me in the good condition that I sent it to you in, I will send you your refund ie you pay the postage to have had your "look" at the plane.

Sorry, have not had a problem like this to deal with. But I do believe that Ebay buying is not an optional purchase arrangement

I wrote again ...

I am a very experienced woodworker. Ignore my day time job. Look at the www link I gave you.

The fact is that your advertising on this plane was false. I do not know about other tools you have sold. You stated "blade in good condition ... Ready for immediate use" - the fact remains that it will never be able to be used - it is ground up to the slot. I wanted a user, not something to put on a shelf.

Please reconsider, otherwise I shall contact Paypal.

And he replied ...

I wont get into discussion about experience in woodwork, my 30 professional life stands. I did look at your link and feedback before emailing you this morning

I believe that your complaint is unwarranted. The blade is perfectly useable although it is not new. Your other complaints are demonstrably unfounded ie the " replaced" fence and " not used for years"

I have made you an offer . That is you return the plane to me, you have not actually mentioned this, and I will refund your purchase price and the initial postage that you paid. That I believe is a fair offer in these circumstances. I do not want unhappy customers but you ask me to go too far.

I take your last paragraph as a direct threat and may react accordingly

That is where it ended. I emailed him to say that I would be returning plane, which IU shall to first post tomorrow. I am paying a second lot of postage, and I expect to get back the money I laid out for the plane and the original postage. It is not the money (this is a very small amount) - it is the principle. Am I crazy for getting so ?

Regards from Perth

Derek

He wrote

Quote:

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

I have made you an offer . That is you return the plane to me, you have not actually mentioned this, and I will refund your purchase price and the initial postage that you paid. That I believe is a fair offer in these circumstances. I do not want unhappy customers but you ask me to go too far.

---

So i dont see what the problem is.

Actually, I did ask to return the plane "for a full refund" in my first email. He balked at this, offering only the cost of the plane. Later, when I threatened contacting Paypal, he acted as if I had not asked for a refund at all, and then offered to pay the full amount.

It is not the money. I was really angry at the obvious deceipt and then his avoidance of accepting responsibility for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I can see the problem, and I know nothing about planes.

The big issue with deals like this is that there is not enough at stake. Add to that, the photos on ebay are rarely high enough resolution to decide if the article is good, and sometimes they are of a different article altogether.

Life's too short. Ebay is a lottery. I had a similar thing happen with some photo gear from asia - the seller agreed to refund, but claimed the item I sent back never arrived.. In the end, it's not worth giving yourself high blood pressure because some lowlife decides to scam you for a few bucks. I let karma sort him out later :)

When I think about it, I've bought lots of stuff on ebay, and I've only stuffed up twice. Once was my own fault (Nintendo US cartridges don't work in Aussie Nintendo 64's. Duh!) and the other was the photo gear shonk. Not bad average, maybe 1% failures, which just goes to show that people are generally honest.

woodbe.

Sorry to tell you but I think the seller is being rather reasonable about this.

(I don't know much about planes either).

I assme you saw some photos before buying?

Derek, in the original photo's, I had a hard time finding the blade. In the other photos you posted I can see why. Less than 1/2" if blade, ready to use? Rust. I think there is a difference of opinion between the sellers "user" and the rest of the word's "user".

Can it be rescued by getting another blade from an old woodie and skewing that blade? New wedge while your at it.

I now try to avoid buying stuff I cannot inspect before handing over the pancakes.

Caveat emptor :((

bloody charlatans eh !.. he sounds like the type who will defend himself to the very end. I mean....look !..... he's calling pictorial evidence of shyt, excellent !!!!! .... the deciet must really annoy you Derek.

My sympathies. I know what it feels like. I had a recent situation too like that too. Being told that pictorial shyt was excellent. Bet he's going to fail to accept he's wrong too and push the focus onto your personality next...just to take the focus off himself. Some people are just pricks arn't they ! :no:

He seems like a reasonable ebay seller to me Derek, just a difference of opinion. Caveat emptor. Lifes too short.

Cheers
Michael

get the refund - got on with life - try not to be too discouraged with a single experience as it is not indicative of most eBay sellers in my opinion (1000 transactions - 100% +ve feedback) - I always ask for additional pics if the originals are inadequate. When I don't get them or they reveal a substandard item, I hang on to my dollars and tell the seller why.

Crappy plane though!

Derek

I think that the description is misleading, at least as regards the plane being a user straight away and the blade. I'm not confident of the mouth and the fence points - I suspect that the photos the seller put up show as much as your photos.

However, the cutter is no good (although you might have been able to tell that from the seller's photo because the iron has almost disappeared behind the wedge). The telling point though is the wedge - no way that could be seen and no way you can use that plane with that wedge.

One of the problems is the different expectations that we have in AUstralia as opposed to in theUS - s52 has almost reversed caveat emptor and consumers expect that sellers will at least allow you to conduct a real inspection. Different consumer protection laws lead to different expectations from buyers and standards of behaviour from sellers. It is almost cultural for US sellers to "puff" their goods in ways we would consider misleading.

Cheers

Jeremy

What the seller has done is referred to in the legal fraternity as "puffing",I think he has written it up in the hope he will catch some inexperienced buyer and maybe get hundreds of bucks for it.It didn't work:no:

Derek

That looks like a rip-off to me. That plane is not "...ready for immediate use..." The photos don't show the significant defects and the description is, at the very least, misleading.

I reckon you're justified in feeling aggrieved.

I've bought a few tools on eBay; from Australia, the US and the UK. Mostly positive experiences with a couple of minor disappointments but nothing quite so blatantly misrepresentative as this.

Good luck.

Col

Derek, don't forget to send it registered mail, well worth the extra $2.50, and no arguments about the item getting "lost".

He hasn't said that it was 'excellent' as stated by apricot. AFAIK, he's simply told a bit of a porky by stating that the blade was 'in good condition'. If it was sharp, then you could probably use it straight away, and get a couple of more sharpens out of it before tossing it in the bin, or turning some pens out of the block of wood that you've still got. If you were spending more than 30 bills on it then you'd be wise to ask for some more detailed pics of everything before forking out your readies. As others have stated, 'Caveat Emptor'.

Sometimes I get caught up in 'the principle' type arguments as well. You have to take a breath an weigh up the importance of the issue.
1. How important/influential is the dude that you're up against.
2. How much money have you lost.
3. How much time/frustration will you invest chasing it up.
4. How much satisfaction will you get from a favourable outcome.
5. How much dissatisfaction will you suffer from an unfavourable outcome.

Then ask yourself: Is it worth it?

Life's too short to waste on some things, but sometimes it's quite satisfying to get a 'win'.

edit: Be thankful that you didn't hand over your bank details to a Nigerian 'Prince'. There's a lot of them out there, and almost as many suckers to go with them. :U

G'day Derek,

You're fully justified for my 2¢. The plane is shot.

I love auctions like this.. crap photos of something you see might be a winner.

The dodgy photos will with any luck put off other buyers and leave you to risk a few bucks on a plane that COULD be a bargain.

I've done it.. and I love it, I've scored a couple of rare gems from simply taking a guess at what that fuzzy brown blob is in the photo:2tsup: buuuuut then I've also received some fuzzy brown blobs:-

Ask a lot of questions to improve your chances but risk the clarification being included in the listing and other bidders pricking up their ears.

these kind of auctions I see as my lotto tickets (which I don't buy).. except cheaper and with better odds.. buuut you have to be able to open the package, toss it straight in the bin and get on with your day.

A side note on that seller tho.. I have seen a number of his auctions and passed on a couple of things he's put up .. his listings scream dodgy to me, can't quite say why.. a few things have been passed in that surprised me, maybe other people get the same vibe?

In the grand scheme of things, this is an extremely minor annoyance. I deal with human problems on an hourly basis that make this experience a totally petty affair. I know this, we all know this. I got over it after about 15 minutes of a few emails back-and-forth.

The plane goes back today. I expect to get my money back. That is not as important to me as the Seller accepting responsibility.

I will point out that I sniped a bid at the last moment as I only noted the auction about an hour before it was due to end. That is not the way to go about eBay auctions. Do your homework, which means ask questions and get pictures if you can. I generally follow these rules.

It is good to just ventilate my irritation at the deceit and time wasting that occurred, and to do so among friends who are supportive. Thanks guys.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Quote:

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

I got over it after about 15 minutes of a few emails back-and-forth.

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So the question remains, was this a worthwile thread in the first place? i doubt it, as ebay is always a risk, and as Shelia used to say "Tough tities" :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lignum

So the question remains, was this a worthwile thread in the first place? i doubt it.

---

I think it was, It's given Derek a chance to let off a bit of steam and maybe wize up a few people on the pros and cons of buying on ebay.
The listed item was not accurately described and it would make anyone angry to be taken for a ride. I guess the seller can do no more than offer the money back and the original postage cost so no real harm done.
you can always have some satisfaction by leaving unfavourable feedback if you don't get satisfaction from the seller but in this case I think the seller has done all about he can do to satisfy the buyer.
Anyway Derek has probably got a bit of satisfaction from letting off steam in here:)

But ebay ia an unseen auction. You win some and gloat and you loose some and have a whinge. Thats life i suppose:wink:

Hi Derek,

I think I would put my eggs in your basket as being the one with the accurate description.

BUT

I would be happy with the result. He is out of pocket, you are out of pocket. I would email him and say something like "Though we disagree on a number of issues it is good we could sort this out" and advise that you will leave positive feedback with regard to the sorting out of the problem if he will also.

This leaves both your ebay feedbacks positive, no need to win a battle when the war will go on for years.

You never know whats going on in peoples lives that makes them behave in strange ways. With similar ebay feedback results I imagine he is normally very good. Perhaps hes not well or something.

Good luck

dazzler

Lignum

As John notes, this was just me letting off a bit of steam among friends while warning others what to do and what not to do. I take responsibility for not doing my homework. I was aggrevated by the blatant dishonesty of the Seller. The piddling amount of money does not minimise that, but in the grand scheme of events in life, this is an even more piddling affair. Plane went back today and the whole event is forgotten.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's pretty obvious that the wedge is shot and the blade hasn't got any more life in it, so the plane is not as stated. Don't know about the fence. Morally, he should give a refund, but is probably relying on the fact that it's not worth the hassle.

Thing is, if he'd mentioned those problems, someone probably would have paid almost as much knowing they could fix it.

He's a liar and a knowall dickhead. I've not bought anything on ebay for ages because of this type. You have every right to be .

Trust me, no-one at e-bay or paypal gives a toss. I doubt if they ever resolved one complaint. They care a lot about making squillions, is all. There is no comeback. Lilke someone said, it's a lottery, based on trust.

Have a beer and forget it.

D

what tassie said

except to note that ebay craps on buyers & sellers alike.
They seem to back up the first to complain

Derek, you're not crazy at all. An unscrupulous seller tried to cheat you.

As others have said, don't expect too much support from eBay or PayPal. Neither gives a damn. They are completely the opposite of Lee Valley, subscribing to the philosophy that "There's no money in integrity".

The only things I buy from eBay these days are the occasional CD, and things I can inspect before handing over the cash.

Hi Derek, (the not so crazy one)

What Dazzler said.
What AlexS said.
What Tassie said.
What Ron said.

In the section for 'Have Your Say' I reckon your post is quite appropriate. I have also found similar sellers with questionable eyesight, language and photographic skills, all quite deliberate methinks. Many honest Johns out there with the clever cons though.

Thanks for the heads up.

Cheers
Pops

be very careful on ebay, ask for more pics
my partner recently got ripped off for really big bucks on a vintage guitar
he's experienced, always asks for photos and serial numbers and knows what he's buying.
This was an outright forgery, interpol can only intervene for more than $10,000
once it was a fun place to go, but now there are too many dishonest poeple useing it as a place to offload stuff they cant sell at a market.
only acept from those with 99.9% feedback.
for small purchasers a lot dont bother with negative feedback so if anyone has had any bad feedback, check it out.

Astrid

oh oh, I know what it is........Parallux error!..... Just turn the plane around in your hand a bit. Should be able to find an angle that makes it look excellent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

Lignum

As John notes, this was just me letting off a bit of steam among friends while warning others what to do and what not to do. I take responsibility for not doing my homework. I was aggrevated by the blatant dishonesty of the Seller. The piddling amount of money does not minimise that, but in the grand scheme of events in life, this is an even more piddling affair. Plane went back today and the whole event is forgotten.

Regards from Perth

Derek

---

I do understand Derek. It's that horrible feeling of being ripped off that overrides the common sense of the time and monetary value of the transaction. It's the feeling that you're being laughed at by someone who has little or no respect for his or her fellow humans. When they're cornered that immediately go for the grey areas ("it's a matter of perception") and try to blur the issue.

I know that I'm willing to chase after someone for $5.00 if I have this feeling of being ripped off, but will let $100.00 slide if I perceive that the seller made an honest mistake in selling something to me that was overpriced.

There should be more people like you who hold people like that to account.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rossluck

. When they're cornered that immediately go for the grey areas ("it's a matter of perception") and try to blur the issue.
.

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I know what you mean. Isn't it frustrating when people do that. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by astrid

be very careful on ebay, ask for more pics
my partner recently got ripped off for really big bucks on a vintage guitar
he's experienced, always asks for photos and serial numbers and knows what he's buying.
This was an outright forgery, interpol can only intervene for more than $10,000
once it was a fun place to go, but now there are too many dishonest poeple useing it as a place to offload stuff they cant sell at a market.
only acept from those with 99.9% feedback.
for small purchasers a lot dont bother with negative feedback so if anyone has had any bad feedback, check it out.

Astrid

---

Always use Paypal, the transaction can be cancelled & reversed

well you only get what you pay for ......his ad did state 14day return ......and money back ...ok so you loose the postage .....life is full of experiances, its how you deal with them that counts ...dont let one minor bad experiance ruin your day ...or buy aything from him in the future either .....and move on:U

Derek the description certainly wasn't complete and there was a degree of "puffery". The seller's response to being caught was not that of someone who was being completely honest.

On the other hand, if this was a real "gem" of a plane worth more than you paid you probably wouldn't be offering the seller more money. We all like a deal.

You both managed to find some common ground and should feel grateful you were able to mitigate your losses. I'm with some of the other replies in that I no longer seek remedy to all my grievances. If you can get some sort of result so that you are not completely ripped-off, then don't "busta-gasket". Mellow out over a beer and find a way to make it a good story around the barbie.

If all else fails I can send you some of my tablets, they work for me.

prozac

Hi Prozac

Thanks.

The result was that the Seller repaid the auction amount plus postage (but not the postage in returning the plane to him).

He subsequently listed the plane again on ebay, this time not claiming that it was in good working condition. I do not know whether it sold or not. I put it out of my mind.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I would be upset too with some greedy lying crook giving an innacurate statement like that. The plane is unusable apart from using as a missile directed at the crook's head.

I am not sure what some people mean when they say get over it, it is only a small amount. Any amount ripped is dishonest and should be dealt with - not brushed over or rated according to the amount lost. To me the amount is irrelevant.

I have never bothered with ebay as I have heard too many sad stories. I'd prefer to take my chances with the corporate crooks, at least I have some sort of comeback.

Ebay's quite handy Bob.
Just one very simple rule for your own protection.
Only pay by Paypal or credit card.
The transaction can be reversed by you for the non performance by the seller.