Unions, loathe em, love em or balance

this is for all of you with an axe to grind or a thank you.
Lets lay some myths to rest.
Give credit where i'ts due.
ideas to pull in too much power on either side
lets have genuine thoughts rather than biased rants ( and I mean me too)

Astrid:U

Why did you do this Astrid - glutton for rants?

I had my first encounter with the unions back in 1973 when I first arrived in this fine country, I was 18.

I was threatened by a big bully boy union rep that if I did not join, I couldnt work, I had no choice but to join.

Later on in life I was in Ballarat, same scenario, no ticket, no job.

I used to loath paying the union fees to some big fat obviously under worked bully boy, I lost countless days due to strikes, which I never did recoup with all the "new" benefits that they had us strike for.

The last straw for me was a union meeting that was held at trades hall for all the brickies.
About 10 of us turned up.

The big bully boy was retiring and he wanted the union to hand him the keys to the company car, " for all his hard work" but it needed a vote.

All the other areas had voted "no", as we did. :nonono:

Well, this bloke was furious, telling us what a pack of ( insert words of choice here) we all were after all his years of hard work, etc, etc..:wank:

Puss

thats a little unfair,
just thought that the election thread was getting a bit too union focused and this would leave room for those who dont want to talk about Unions.
quite frankly i.ts a subject that stirs too many biased passions one way or the other and nothing sensible is often said. And I include me in this.
I did suggest that the others start this thread.

Astrid (we dont have an icon for a little hurt)

Good on you Brickie,
this is what Unions are for, too represent the members
if some weight challanged (Heh Heh) bully is trying to dominate his members or his or her( Heh Heh) workers then a group can stand up to them when an individual can't

Astrid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

Good on you Brickie,
this is what Unions are for, too represent the members
if some weight challanged (Heh Heh) bully is trying to dominate his members or his or her( Heh Heh) workers then a group can stand up to them when an individual can't

Astrid

---

I think you have missed my point. :?

I wasnt "his" worker.

I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly. :doh:

so what was your point? to beat the union bully with solidarity? well good on you you did it
astrid:)

Of all the strikes we had not once did we actually get what we wanted .

Always came back with a very small comprimise , having a family to feed and a mortgage at 18% you could not afford to have too much time of and the increase you got never covered what you lost in down time.

After talking to managment this is what we have agreed to and we strongly think you should agree. Poppyc.....ck


Not a big fan of union reps.

They have their place but times have changed we now have many government departments which handle the same things individual or collective.

Went on strike when an apprentice for 3 days for 15 min wash up time and $15 week increase. after 3 days we got 5 mins wash time and $2.50 increase.

Twice threatened personally once threatened my family..

I wasonce nominated as Union rep :oo: I wasn't even there, voted in, told them the next day I resigned on the spot.

then get a new union rep?
astrid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brickie

I think you have missed my point. :?

I wasnt "his" worker.

I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly. :doh:

---

So their is something we agree on:)

wheelin,
commas are useful things,
I take this as
you nominated, were voted in, and resigned the next day,
so why did you nominate?

Astrid

Ps not all Union reps are fat control freaks, many of us take on the job because its needed and no-one else wants it. I was 6 months preg when I took it on and believe you me i would have been happier if somone else could have been bothered.

I resign from this debate as you are not listening, typical of the unions. :~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

Ps not all Union reps are fat control freaks, many of us...

---

Ahhhh now i see:wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

then get a new union rep?
astrid

---

Haven't been in the union since then Astrid thats well over 25 yrs ago will never join one again.

The best thing anyone can do if being asked to join a Union is ask for the rule book first no demand it and tell them you'll make your judgment after that.
This is what you are signing to become a member of and like any other thing you join sign your name to you should read the fine print you'll be surprised, I was the shop union rep was a paid person of fee's he collected he received 35% back. This may have changed

settle down brickie,
I was refering to a person fat or otherwise that dominates his union members or if an employer his workers.

This is going to be an uncomfortable thread so i sugest posters read the posts carefully and think about replies.

Astrid

Well, my view of unions is that they are a sort of "necessary evil"; although the use of the word evil is harsh. To my way of thinking the system works through binary oppositions of Greenies/rednecks, unions/unfair employers, conservatives/progressives, leftist politics/rightist politics, brickies/humans (that one's for you, Al:wink:).

In the other thread I was annoyed by those who are just so one-sided that they "hate" unions with a passion and forget that we don't function all that well as a society without such checks and balances.

Let's look at the greenies for example. For years conservatives have been treating greenies as if they are scum, but now we're all starting to accept that the message they were presenting to us was right. We have been damaging the environment.

I see unions as doing something of the same thing in the workplace. You just can't have all of the power on one side, because we humans are a nasty greedy lot who tend to exploit those over whom we have power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

wheelin,
commas are useful things,
I take this as
you nominated, were voted in, and resigned the next day,
so why did you nominate?

Astrid

Ps not all Union reps are fat control freaks, many of us take on the job because its needed and no-one else wants it. I was 6 months preg when I took it on and believe you me i would have been happier if somone else could have been bothered.

---

No I wasn't there is what I said and was nominated not nominated by myself. I resigned from the union on the spot that day.

This is a once off warning. It is purely by good grace that I am letting this thread go (for now)

If any personal attacks, comments etc start, infractions will be given to the guilty parties and any future discussion on this topic will be banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

wheelin,
commas are useful things,
I take this as
you nominated, were voted in, and resigned the next day,
so why did you nominate?

Astrid

---

Astrid, when I grew up one of the things my parents taught me was that it was a bad idea for people in glass houses to throw stones!:rolleyes:

If you read your own posts prior to this, there isn't a comma in sight, and capitals are few and far between as well.

I won't join in the union debate, either for or against, but you at least gave me a laugh with your gratuitous advice to wheelin re punctuation.:2tsup:

Ok, but you cant nominate someone without their say so, in any election, and for the vote to be valid.
I suggest that your election would be invalid and you didnt need to resign, just say, whah! b-- off

astrid

I used to find in many unions through people I dealt with that their particular union laws etc stated that "No Management could be a Union rep" all to often who's the rep a supervisor a manager, a forman. These days Union reps could be breaching their own union laws by having shares through managed investments in the company they work for such as their own super for example.

Business across from me, non unoin, 10 staff, very well looked after, made a large piece of equipment for the Mint. The owner and 2 workers followed the semi to spend the day to install it. On arivall, naturaly they wernt allowed in to finish the job because they didnt have a ticket. After a few hours they gave up and were resigned to the fact they had no option but to join.
But that wasnt all. They had to join the unions super fund, BUT their is more, they had to transfere ALL the super from their own accounts and deposit into the unions account. Fair dinkum what a joke. Like Al, i also loath them. Yes they might do some good, but in general they are nothing but a bunch of jerks.

And BS somtimes punctuation is not that important when your meaning is easily decipherable, Yeah my spelling can be atroshus too.

but as i said, this is going to be a bit contentous so we should take a little more care if our meaning is to not be misconstrued.
alright?

Astrid:q

Unions;
Seen 'em do good,:2tsup:
seen 'em do "Not so Good"........ ie Bad!:(

Then again,
I've had some VERY!!!! GOOD Bosses,:U

I've had some attrocious Bosses as well.:~
Hmmmmm
Have a look at the top of the Telecom PILE:(

Both Unions, and Bosses cover the Spectrum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lignum

Business across from me, non unoin, 10 staff, very well looked after, made a large piece of equipment for the Mint. The owner and 2 workers followed the semi to spend the day to install it. On arivall, naturaly they wernt allowed in to finish the job because they didnt have a ticket. After a few hours they gave up and were resigned to the fact they had no option but to join.
But that wasnt all. They had to join the unions super fund, BUT their is more, they had to transfere ALL the super from their own accounts and deposit into the unions account. Fair dinkum what a joke. Like Al, i also loath them. Yes they might do some good, but in general they are nothing but a bunch of jerks.

---

There's the problem in a nutshell, Lignum. The 10 staff across the road are very well looked after. If all employers were like that, goodbye unions. :2tsup:

But they're not :C:C:C:C:C

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wood Butcher

This is a once off warning. It is purely by good grace that I am letting this thread go (for now)

If any personal attacks, comments etc start, infractions will be given to the guilty parties and any future discussion on this topic will be banned.

---

Wow!! :o Go Rowan.. :2tsup:

Wheelin, but pardon me that is rubbish,
When I was rep most of our members were supervisors or management me included.
we just put on another hat when dealing with workplace issues, as a lot of people who come up through the ranks are expected to do.
those who couldnt were swiftly sat on and politley asked to leave management concerns for the appropriate time and forum.

astrid

Union member half my working life. Non union member for rest.
Never noticed the difference.
Never had any problems, contact, or use for unions.:roll:

Put me in the rats ring group.:;

Hi rowen,
I dont think anyone is being hurt or insulted, we're all big kids and if they dont enjoy the debate they wouldnt be on it.

if anyone insults personally or is abusive by all means take it down.

Astrid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rossluck

There's the problem in a nutshell, Lignum. The 10 staff across the road are very well looked after. If all employers were like that, goodbye unions. :2tsup:

But they're not :C:C:C:C:C

---

25 years in the workforce i have had 2 bad employers.

25 years in the workforce, i couldnt even begin to count the number of "work mates" who have ripped off, stole, manipulated time sheets, faulse sick days etc.

Go figure

Thanks Rossluck,
Im just trying to let folk vent here,
which we all need to do sometimes,
lets keep it civilized and there wont be a problem.

astrid

Astrid,
I believe both sides of politics have in recent years moved to improve the balance and remove some of the undesirable aspects of union behavior.
There is no doubt that in many industries and companies they provide a voice for employees and work to ensure fair and reasonable conditions.

However when unions over step the mark and resort to bullying and stand over tactics, often merely to further the political ambitions of the officials it is no wonder many members desert and hold them in contempt.

Pity greed and self interest continues to reign in so much of our lives...Hmmm doubt if that will ever change so its up to our governments to make the rules.

At the end of the day I subscribe to the notion of Freedom of association which includes unions so organised labour is a good thing, just make sure their ambitions are reasonable, for the genuine good of members and lawful thanks.:)
Regards Mike

thanks Mike,
thats the stuff we all need to learn,
my view,and i own a small business, as well as working part time for a big co
is that in an industry where you are replacable because of lack of skills, or a shift in economic value,people need a protected representitive,
elected by the folk they are representing.
Unfortunatly some folk work as outworkers or in companies too small to get that and it is a unions job to help these to fair pay and conditions even if they arnt members.

many unions do this, some dont and should be ashamed.

Astrid

As I posted in the other discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geoff Dean

In 1986 I was working for a printing company that was a non union shop. Everyone was paid above award wages, around $50 per week, which was around 12% above the award, we had very good conditions, were happy with the employer and got on and did a good days work.

The business was sold to the local newspaper which was run to militant union rules. Within 5 minutes of the first day that the new owners were in charge we were visited by the shop steward who told all staff that they had to join the union. Most joined, I resisted.

I was then called to a meeting and told that I had to join or everyone else would be called out on strike. My reply was they could strike as much as they liked, I would turn up to work and get paid while they got no wages, see if I cared. I was told I would not be allowed to enter the premises if I did not join. I had to be restrained from putting said officials head thru a brick wall.

End result was I did not have to join, and the others who had joined then tried to unjoin from union, but were not allowed to do so. I think that they were more peed off about that than me.

The union made sure that everyone who was on over award wages lost those extras. They could not remove them from us, but every CPI or Indexed rise that happened for the next 3 years was not passed on until we were back on the award.

I have only had 3 jobs in 28 years, I left my first job after 8.5 years after the union standover tactics, my second employer was a good employer for 8 years, but then the business started going bad because of his excesses, and I left after 8.5 years also. The business went bellyup about 18 months later so I just got out in time.

I have been with my current employer now for nearly 11 years and in the whole 28 years, apart from 4 years as an apprentice, and 3 months after the union intervention with my first job, I have been paid over the award, currently almost 40% above, and not a single union rep to get that for me, in fact all they have ever wanted to do is have my salary decreased to the award.

My employers have always valued my expertise and work ethic and rewarded me accordingly. I have had a few other run ins with unions over the years, but by making them admit that they are not able to get me as good a conditions that I currently have, I have been able to make them leave me alone.

So you can understand why I think that unions are nothing but self serving, blackmailing extortionists, who have probably outlived there usefulness. They may have some relevance, but not while they continue to display the militant tactics that they have in the past.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brickie

I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly. :doh:

---

:2tsup::2tsup:

Brickie, couldn't agree more, as far as I am concerned, any elected union official that I have had to deal with has been the scum of the earth. Lower than shark poop.:((

I always have leant to the left (short leg and all), and as such have always supported unions.

I think it is easy to draw out the examples where unionists have become bloated, or certain sections have received too many concessions.

However I also think, that employers with goodwill in their heart are in the minority, and if there was no such thing as unionised workforces then we would be operating in a completely different environment. Unions not only bring an employee advocate to the wage condition debate, but also highlight areas of safety, general work conditions and employee welfare.

At the end of the day it is a purely supply and demand issue. Whilst we have high employment/low unemployment then the bargaining power is naturally with the employee and therefore the employer has to provide conditions conducive to attracting employees. However once we have high unemployment and the employer no longer has to shop around for the right employee, that's when conditions (employer overheads/costs) are eroded and the unions come into their own.

A first year apprentice electrician under workchoices currently earns around $6.5 per hour. Sort of says it all really.

Or as the Vic Govt likes to quote

"Depending on the trade, first year apprentice award wages vary between $14,000 and $19,000 per year, rising with each completed year. The award rate is arguably low while you are learning the trade, but you've got to start somewhere! If you are a reliable apprentice, many employers will pay above-award wages to keep you on the team." Yeh right!

$6.50 per hour is about $260 per week before tax. That would be the rent covered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

Thanks Rossluck,
Im just trying to let folk vent here,
which we all need to do sometimes,
lets keep it civilized and there wont be a problem.

astrid

---

I can assure you astrid, that I always remain civilised. I actually have a lot of respect for the people who write to this forum and for the people who run it. :)

I'm self employed these days and by rights should have turned against the unions. But I've also felt the powerlessness of being pushed around by a crook employer in times of high unemployment. I get annoyed when people are violently angry towards anything other than peodophiles. I'm pro union, but not in the least bit angry towards employers or people on the right of politics. We need'em.

rossluck ,
Be assured that the "civilized" comment wasnt directed at anyone in particular especially you.
just trying to keep the moderators happy.
Astrid

apprentices are a difficult topic.
In a genuine apprenticship, they are learning a trade that when finished may earn them a lot more than a student doing a dip Ed
Uni students on the other hand have to pay Hex and earn nothing while they are learning.
they are both learning equaly valuable skills.
I think its time we stop the white collar/blue collar crap and treat both groups as equal and pay them appropriatly.
this needs work and thought to achieve a reasonable out come.
Any ideas?

Astrid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astrid

apprentices are a difficult topic.
In a genuine apprenticship, they are learning a trade that when finished may earn them a lot more than a student doing a dip Ed
Uni students on the other hand have to pay Hex and earn nothing while they are learning.
they are both learning equaly valuable skills.
I think its time we stop the white collar/blue collar crap and treat both groups as equal and pay them appropriatly.
this needs work and thought to achieve a reasonable out come.
Any ideas?

Astrid

---

I agree.

Because of all the back breaking effort that I put into my job, I need to be earning at least $1.5 million per year to make it all worth while.

If you can guarantee me that, I will again join the union.. :2tsup:

Plus super of course..:roll: