electrical - is this legal?

Just wondering if the following procedure is legal:

Often when fitting kitchen cabinets I come across power points already mounted on the wall. I usually cut a 80mm x 55mm slot in the cupboard back, uncrew the power point from the wall and pass it through the slot. Once the cabinets is fitted I fix the power point in place. If the cabinet has a 4mm ply back then the screws go through and back into the original mounting plate. If the cabinet has a 16mm back then I screw it direct to it.

I've got a feeling it's probaly not kosher to do this, but I'm not touching the wiring connections and I'm careful not to twist it around too much. It's prety hard to get a sparky around here at the moment, even if you're a builder and it would be nigh impossible to get one out to disconnect and then back to reconnect a couple of power points.

Comments welcome.

Mick

Yup, totally unlegal to do. Australia's weird-ass wiring regs won't let you touch any fixed electrical outlet in any way, shape or form if you are not anointed by the high priests and have done your required years of indentured servitude.

I don't even think you are allowed to back off the screws a little so you can paint under the things when you are painting - you should paint around them!

That said, and this being Australia, what is legal and what is enforced are different matters!

Will this become another thread needing corn chips and a few refreshing beverages?

PS. Just make sure you turn the power off at the switch box, and double check that it is off by testing it with a power tool...

Not quite the same, but when I was installing kitchens, the sparky use to leave the PP hanging loose out of the wall as he knew they had to be fixed inside the cabinet. All PP were left connected and live so that we could use them if necessary.

We would cut a slot similar in size to what you said and just feed them through the back and whack a couple of screws in to fix it and then he would come back after we finished the job and put the PP covers on and sign off on the job.

With light switches a sparky can pop the switch from the mounting plate to get it through an architrave, then click it back into the plate once it's through the hole.

A sparky might also take the following precautions;

1. Switch of all the power, not just the power/light circuit, whatever, just in case the Dodgy Brothers have hooked up a light to a power circuit, or vice versa.
2. Remove the fuses, and lock the box so no one turns the power on whilst he's working on it
3. Test that the power is off by plugging something in/ turning lights on.
4. Wear rubber soled shoes, and stand on milk crates, or use a fibreglass rather than a metal ladder.
5. Use rubber/plastic handled screwdriver, preferably with an insulated shaft. Likewise with pliers, and wear rubber gloves.
6. When bare wires are exposed, with the shaft of a screwdriver, and holding it by the handle, contact the active, neutral and earth to see if it sparks. (this one has saved me from a bolt before, and the screwdriver came out worse for the wear. He wouldn't use his tongue :U)
7. Avoid touching the bare wires with anything but the jaws of the pliers, wherever possible.

Of course that's just what a sparky might do. :wink: But if you're silly enough to try it on yourself, then don't be so stupid as to go for a Darwin Award.

Did you bring the Corn Chips Master Splinter?

I'm hungry. :)

I've made a good start on the chips....and even an apple cider or two!

I've got a little orange non contact tester that gets used as my last minute check - sweep it over a known live outlet to confirm that its working, then sweep it over the 'off' one to see if it really is off.

"6. When bare wires are exposed, with the shaft of a screwdriver, and holding it by the handle, contact the active, neutral and earth to see if it sparks."

jeesus - must be the poorest sparky in the southern hemisphere if he cant afford a voltage detector - a whole $25 to put in the top pocket! Useful to check whether points are on which circuit etc.

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Originally Posted by Master Splinter

I've made a good start on the chips....and even an apple cider or two!

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Me too.

I don't know why the further responses as Mick is only trolling.


Peter.

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Originally Posted by pharmaboy2

jeesus - must be the poorest sparky in the southern hemisphere if he cant afford a voltage detector - a whole $25 to put in the top pocket! Useful to check whether points are on which circuit etc.

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Well I'm a bit of a tight @rse and I never said I was a sparky.
I might be an idiot, but I'm not so stupid as to go for a Darwin Award. My screwdriver saved me from that. :wink:

I might just qualify my last statement;

As a builder I may need to disconnect a few power points or lights before commencing a demolition, and I may leave a taped up power point nailed to a stud for temporary use, but I'd never hand over a job to a client until a sparky had performed any necessary wiring and signed off on it.
Of course I should get a sparky in to disconnect everything before I start, but if I'm just shifting a wall that has a power point in it, then allowing for a sparky to come out twice instead of once would probably mean that I'd miss out on getting the job to some cowboy who might do everything himself, including his own attempt at reinstalling a relocated power point.

The time that my screwdriver saved me wasn't that long ago, and it was on my own house. I wanted to relocate my water heater outside to give me a bit more floor space inside. I went to the fuse box and removed the fuse marked HWS (Hot Water Service). I disconnected the wires from the HWS and tested it with my screwdriver and BANG. It left a big hole in the side of my screwdriver, but fortunately the only harm to me was a bit of a fright. I then turned off all the power, cut the end off the cable, and taped it up before turning the power back on. It's quite an old house, and I've got no idea who did the original wiring, but someone had incorrectly labeled a fuse as HWS when it obviously wasn't.
After shifting the HWS and connecting the plumbing (No I'm not a plumber either, but don't start on me. It's done properly, and I've got a mate who would be happy to inspect it and sign off on it if necessary), I called a sparky mate to reconnect the wiring and correctly label the fuses in the meter box.

There's no way that I'd advocate anyone touching their own wiring, especially if they don't know what they're doing.

Call a sparky.

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Me too.

I don't know why the further responses as Mick is only trolling.


Peter.

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No I'm not:no: I really wanted to know whether what I do is legal. (As per the title)

Mick

Intersting comments...
Me being an electrician... it made intersting reading
Here is something to think about "A good electrician is a alive one"

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Originally Posted by _Richard

Intersting comments...
Me being an electrician... it made intersting reading
Here is something to think about "A good electrician is a alive one"

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I agree,
just be bloody careful!!!!

I'm afraid that I just can't let the troll comment go. I've tried to ignore it but can't.

Peter,
why do you think I'm trolling in this instance?
Do my prior posts show a history of trolling or general stirring?
Do you not believe that I make and install kitchens for a living?
Did you think I merely asked the question in order to spark a long debate about electrical regulations in Australia?

I do in fact realise that it's illegal for anyone other than a licensed electrician or someone under their direct supervision to carry out work on fixed wiring in Australia. I asked the question becuase I was unsure whether removing and replacing the plate, without touching the wiring or the terminals constituted electrical work. Okay, so it seems that unscreweing the plate is seen as electrical work but I had to ask. Where does the line get drawn?

For instance, let's say I was demolishing a wall with a light switch in it and wasn't expecting a sparky to be onsite for a while. Let's say I turned the power off and cut away a section of plaster around the switch and then demolished the wall. Then I made a ply box which fitted around the back of the plaster section and secured it to the ceiling before activating the circuit again. Is that deemed as electrical work?

I ask these questions because they are real life scenarios, not because I'm trying to cause a stir. I believe I've got enough nouse to do these things in a manner which doesn't endanger anyone. They may not be legal but sometimes these things are done because of the imperfect situations we find ourselves in. However I'd like to satisfy my curiousity about the legality of these practices without being accused of trolling.

Mick

It's not a troll, lets move on. I reckon Mick's word is more than good enough.

As for the question, I reckon it is interesting because anyone who has painted a house or a room has probably removed the powerpoint (PP) and put a plastic bag over it while painting. Is that illegal - yes, should it be?

When the PP is pushed back into the wall void there is the possibility that older wires will flex and break, possibly coming free AFTER the PP is screwed back to the wall. My home is 15yo and a recent reno disturbed a number of PPs. On one of them, the wires broke a number of times (about 3 times IIRC) and I was concerned I would have to rewire the entire run.

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Originally Posted by Groggy

It's not a troll, lets move on. I reckon Mick's word is more than good enough.

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Now if it were my thread, then it may be a different story. :D

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Originally Posted by Groggy

Is that illegal - yes, should it be?

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Well that makes me a naughty boy on the job, as well as on these forums sometimes. :wink:

I can see the reasoning after your example Greg, and I suppose it makes sense.
Accidents can happen, even to professional electricians, but if something went wrong in Mick's case, or in my own, then we'd be in a lot of hot water. :zap:

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Originally Posted by Groggy

When the PP is pushed back into the wall void there is the possibility that older wires will flex and break, possibly coming free AFTER the PP is screwed back to the wall. My home is 15yo and a recent reno disturbed a number of PPs. On one of them, the wires broke a number of times (about 3 times IIRC) and I was concerned I would have to rewire the entire run.

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One of the problems of wires breaking off is caused by the sparky when he strips the wires he uses his pliers instead of a knife or a proper pair of wires strippers to remove the insulation for his connection. When they use their pliers they can sometimes nick the wires and it puts a weak spot in the wires and when the they get bent a couple of times the wire breaks.

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Originally Posted by Barry_White

One of the problems of wires breaking off is caused by the sparky when he strips the wires he uses his pliers instead of a knife or a proper pair of wires strippers to remove the insulation for his connection. When they use their pliers they can sometimes nick the wires and it puts a weak spot in the wires and when the they get bent a couple of times the wire breaks.

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Happens more with solid core than stranded, which is also more flexible.

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Peter, why do you think I'm trolling in this instance?

Mick

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Mick,

The reasons why I thought you were trolling were because you already knew the answer to the question you asked.

You knew all electrical work is illegal as there have been many threads recently about this subject, so many in fact that I usually ignore these kind of posts. I only looked at these posts because you started it.

Some of these threads in recent months have been by trolls who have previously been a member here. It seems to be a blokey thing to do, to come back here and stir.

The examples you quoted are what you and I (and most people) would do and whilst they are commonsense solutions they still remain illegal.

But in view of your further post be assured that I accept that you were not trolling but trying to obtain clarification to some problems.

Peter.

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

................But in view of your further post be assured that I accept that you were not trolling but trying to obtain clarification to some problems.

Peter.

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Thanks, I only suspected that my actions were illegal, as I wasn't actually touching the wiring per se.

Mick

Hi Mick
This attachment should help...

But to give you a taste, this is taken from the WH&S website Qld.

What is electrical work?

The

Electrical Safety Act 2002 includes as electrical work—
installation, maintenance, repair, removal or replacement of
electrical equipment.
In Queensland it is against the law for unlicensed people to perform
electrical work.
Significant penalties of up to $30,000 can apply to individuals.
Other work such as cutting openings for air-conditioning, fitting
but not connecting a wall oven in a kitchen cabinet, or replacing a
drive belt on a washing machine is not electrical work.
Please remember that other electrical risks such as contact with or
damage to internal wiring need to be considered and controlled.

Mick - you will need to do a bit of research on the actual definition(s) of "electrical work" in QLD. I truly suspect that the work you propose is not outside of the set legislation, if you look at the definitions of "work/maintaince/installation" within most of the electrical acts pertaining to low voltage I think you will either come out confirming this or confused, but you will unlikely find a section of an act or reg that specifically relates the relocation of a terminated connection. Firstly you are not altering an already approved installation. Secondly it is not plant. nor equipment under strict definition so the only other aspec is is it electrical work. This is very similar to the defining what is "work under building legisation - in Victoria there are 4 direct pieces of law from the building act to the contract law act and each has a seperate definition!!! Electrical asset = yes, work = yes, electrical work = I don't think so.

The definition for electrical work in Qld can be found quite easily by going to the website:http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/electrica...d/electsafety/ and typing in "electrical work".:doh:

This will take you to the search results and give you the article: http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/pdf/eso/e...k_code2002.pdf:2tsup:

This is actually the "code of Practice for Electrical Act" of the Electrical safety act 2002, but not the actual Electrical safety Act 2002.

Now if you open this document and scan the index you will find that the definition is in Appendix A (listed alphabetically) on pages 76,77,78.

Happy reading!:2tsup:

Be careful taking advice from anyone Interstate - the Act and code of practice are only relevant in Queensland, and therefore any advice given on a similar Act in any other State of Territory is misleading.:no:

At least here in the UK if my consumer unit (RCD's ) trip I can perform maintenance by putting the switch to on again.:roll:

Felixe,
thank you for clarifying this for me. From your linked document "electrical equipment" includes any cable, conductor or fitting (I'm assuming a powerpoint constitutes a fitting) and "electrical work" includes the removal or replacing of electrical equipment.

Mick

Just some advice to those of you that use the small non-contact voltage detectors. The safe way to use these devices is:

1. Check against a known volatge or a device which simulates a known voltage. The voltage should be the same as that being worked with.

2. Test the cable you intend to work with.

3. Re-test the detector against the known voltage before touching the cable in question.

Item number 3 is the most important one cause if the detector is damaged by the voltage in the tested cable it will show a nil voltage signal which you would assume to be a dead cable when its actually live.

For those of you who are not electricians the above must be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Barry_White

One of the problems of wires breaking off is caused by the sparky when he strips the wires he uses his pliers instead of a knife or a proper pair of wires strippers to remove the insulation for his connection. When they use their pliers they can sometimes nick the wires and it puts a weak spot in the wires and when the they get bent a couple of times the wire breaks.

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Barry I'm outraged. Sparkies do not cause wires to be nicked. :o We have years of training and practice not to nick the wires.
It's only non-sparkies (and apprentices) that do that. :;

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Originally Posted by Markw

Just some advice to those of you that use the small non-contact voltage detectors. The safe way to use these devices is:

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Do not rely on the indication given by non contact voltage detectors before touching a potentially live cable. Although they are handy devices and usefull in some situations they are not accurate or consistant and should only be used for an initial check of power to see why someting isn't working. IMO that is.

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Originally Posted by NCArcher

Do not rely on the indication given by non contact voltage detectors before touching a potentially live cable. Although they are handy devices and usefull in some situations they are not accurate or consistant and should only be used for an initial check of power to see why someting isn't working. IMO that is.

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NC
Non contact detectors are no more or less reliable than any other proving device. You still must run through the 3 stage test as indicated in my previous post whether using a detector, a lamp, a meter or a modiwark (HV). Obviously you only need 2 steps if the circuit is proved live. In actual fact I would not use them for fault finding at all as they virtually useless in a customer box or even worse in a descent size switchboard.

A recent fatality highlighted by NSW WorkCover at an RSL was more a case of an unqualified person using a tool outside the instructions provided by the manufacturer. This particular case sent panic waves throughout the electrical industry for very little apparent reason. Everybody just jumped on the bandwagon to denigrate the use of non-contact detectors without reading or understanding how the fatality occured.

I work as an purchasing engineer with a NSW electricity distributor and get the WorkCover fatalities details on a regular basis. That particular case is one that shouldn't be used to show the benefits or definiencies of these tools.

also when the outlet is moved the terminals can become loose and need to retightened, especially when more than one cable is run to the outlet