Is CCA Treated Pine Unsafe?

I don't think it is.

There doesn't appear to be any scientific evidence to substantiate any safety hazerds.

Its no longer permitted in new public playgrounds in Oz , but I think this is really a politicians kneejerk reaction to misinformation. AND possible insurance premium hikes

Treated Pine doesn't have to be removed from pre-existing public playgrounds, though it is recommended that it be painted.

If it was dangerous it would be prohibited in domestic situations.

Australia & New Zealand Have the same uniform safety standards for all products. NZ Government has publicly stated cca treated pine is safe.

If You think treated pine is unsafe please tell me why

Believe me when I tell you I have done a lot of reading on this being a playground designer.

At first I thought what a load of rot, as a lot of the hyperbole was generated by some hippy dippy organisation down in Victoria that I had never heard of. Also the CSIRO said that the risk from CCA is negligible, also what started the whole thing was a report out of Chile...or somewhere that linked treated pine equipment in playgrounds with cancer in kids. This has now been discredited.

But it has been banned in a lot of Europe and the USA. Not NZ AFAIK.

Now .... I acknowledge that you do get leaching of arsenic in the soil around treated play equipment and if a child ate a handful of undisturbed soil from a distance of not greater than 100mm from a post they probably will get sick.

The way I look at it now is that I'm sick of thinking about it and just get on and specify different timber- namely I use more hardwood which I think is a good thing.

I still specify TP....Tan E but usually for in ground applications.

BTW CCA is not banned, they just forced the manufacturers to change the label on the chemical to say not suitable for timber that is to be used for........

So the responsibility is still on the end user that they don't use the stuff for the wrong application. However most producers are being responsible and stop using it for decking etc but not all.

The arsenic leaching out is a problem. It can contaminate the ground water. (How much and the ultimate damages, I don't know.)

In playground equipment the problem is that children have tendancy to chew on anything. There the arsenic would be leaching directly into the kiddies.

One of my wholesalers proposed the anti-argument that the arsenic content of 10m3 of treated pine equals 1kg of Prawns.

We turn a lot of treated pine. When we started about 15-20 years ago I rang the CSIRO about it.

Their words were that a horse would have to eat a 5' post 6" in diameter a day for the next 15 years to get sick.

If as people say that leaching is such a problem there must be some lousy wine out there as every vineyard has up to 3000 TP posts in it.

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Originally Posted by

We turn a lot of treated pine. When we started about 15-20 years ago I rang the CSIRO about it.

Their words were that a horse would have to eat a 5' post 6" in diameter a day for the next 15 years to get sick.

If as people say that leaching is such a problem there must be some lousy wine out there as every vineyard has up to 3000 TP posts in it.

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That's much the same as I was told 30 years ago.
I was also told you'd get sick from the copper component before arsenic had any affect.

Not only the wine, but almost every dairy fram uses treated pine posts so if it leached out it must contamninate the grass that cows eat.

Shock horror all the Melbourne milk supply is contaminated.

While I really think the fears are truly incorrect,
I suspect there is a notable hostility to it.

Which is rather sad to see a good product asassinated because of a hoax in Brazil a few years ago.

BTW, Canned beer has arsenic added as a food preservative.

A lot of wineries are now replacing the CCA posts. I don't know if it is a quality issue or protecting their image type of thing?

As far as arsenic leaching into the ground water goes ...arsenic is a very common, naturally occuring, water soluble mineral found in all soils - the amount that can leach from a post is almost undetectable once you go beyound 100mm past the post.

I think the main environmental concern is at the processing plants where you have huge vats (auto claves) of the stuff and the perhaps less than stringent environmental practices that were employed when processing the timber product.

G'day All.
See my post in the Moose thread..

so who,s willing to chip up a teapotful and drink it,
:U

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Originally Posted by astrid

so who,s willing to chip up a teapotful and drink it,
:U

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Been there. Done that (sort of).

And I'm still here.

Shee! Talk about the Nanny state. over regulated to the back teeth.

How many kids have you heard dropping dead while playing in the playground from Arsenic poisoning? None? Well, There ya go.
CCA dangerous? my farts do more damage than CCA.:D

untreated pine tastes terrible so why drink pine tea?

This CSIRO link appears to be a well researched and documented link.
http://www.ffp.csiro.au/ti-ccafactsheet.asp

RE: One of my wholesalers proposed the anti-argument that the arsenic content of 10m^3 of treated pine equals 1kg of Prawns.
Humm, not quite.
CCA contains around 10kg of arsenic per cubic metre (~500 kg) of timber. That's a ratio of 50:1
Prawns can have up to a few hundred micrograms (0.0002 g) of As per gram of prawns. Thats a ratio of 5,000 to 1.
So CCA contains ~100 times more As per kg than prawns
Or 1kg of prawns is the same as 10g of CCA.
So I make it, if a kid in a playground eats a mouthfull of CCA treated woodchips that the same as eating a BIG feed of prawns.
Someone should check this calc as I am often wrong and get my factors in a twist.

Most people don't realize everytime you eat bottom dwelling seafood (crabs, prawns etc) you ingest quiet a bit of arsenic and other heavy metals as well. Fortunately in the seafood and in CCA the arsenic in a form that you pee out almost immediately and it doesn't affect you. It's not an easy subject to get your head around as you can't just look at the total amount but need to look at the chemical species and how it concentrates in various reserviors etc.

Happy seafood eating!

First up arsenic is a heavy metal and so are copper and chromium to a lesser extent, arsenic is easily retained in the fatty tissue of the body. You can't get rid of it but you can certainly increase the amount at any time. CCA is not IDHL ( immediately dangerous to life or health)

I work in the Electricity industry and every timber pole installed these days is now treated with CCA. We don't wear special moon suits but we do use respirators and gloves when handling or cutting poles as we're aware of the slow buildup of the metal toxins. What we also do is conduct blood tests for those who may be subject to higher than normal contact or work with arsenic trioxide - a termite pesticide.

One of the biggest issues with CCA is diposal - untreated timber poles were always sold to the public for use in wood fuel heaters but the smoke from a burning CCA pole is very toxic as the arsenic has a high flow path into the blood stream via the lungs. Smoke or the ash residue from burnt CCA has a much higher concertration of heavy metals.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~croycons/treated%20pine1.htm
Arsenic is a known human carcinogen and has been linked to nervous system damage and birth defects. According to the National Academy of Sciences, exposure to arsenic causes lung, bladder, and skin cancer in humans, and is suspected as a cause of kidney, prostate, and nasal passage cancer. Numerous studies show that arsenic sticks to children’s hands when they play on CCA treated wood, and can be absorbed through the skin or ingested when they put their hands in their mouths.
It is illegal to burn CCA treated pine as the smoke contains toxic gases that can cause cancer and other medical problems, and under no circumstances must CCA treated timber be burned in a BBQ for cooking food. Disposal in landfill is a huge problem, for now and in the future, due to the leaching potential of not only arsenic, but also the chromium content. There have been reported instances of CCA treated pine sawdust ending up in mulch in the U.S.A. and CCA treated pine chips being coloured red and used in landscaping.

Show me documented cases of arsenic poisoning from casual contact with cca treated pine.

Why is arsenic used as a preservative in canned beer?

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Originally Posted by echnidna

Show me documented cases of arsenic poisoning from casual contact with cca treated pine.

Why is arsenic used as a preservative in canned beer?

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Google is such a wonderfull thing I typed in exactly what you asked Echnidna "documented cases of arsenic poisoning from casual contact with cca treated pine."

and found this
http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/down...rsenic_tox.pdf


other than that maybe department of statistics in ACT might help you or medical records would have to be the next step.

But that could be like looking for snow in Australia www.ski.com.au easy to find if its a good season

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

Google is such a wonderfull thing I typed in exactly what you asked Echnidna "documented cases of arsenic poisoning from casual contact with cca treated pine."

and found this
http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/down...rsenic_tox.pdf

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Thank you Wheelin. I read most of it (well, it is 60 pages) and sure enough, CCA treated wood is negligibly toxic. Although banned in the USA for residential use after 1 Jan 2004, it is still available for industrial and agricultural use and is considered quite safe.

(The new stuff, BTW, has so much copper in it that one had better choose their fasteners carefully or they will corrode and disappear rather quickly.) :)

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/down...rsenic_tox.pdf

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Thats all well and good.
But, Go and read a MSDS sheet on powdered Milk. You will not believe what it says about causing abnormal intestinal growths in rats and mice. Also the effects of skin contact, irritation of mucus membranes, irritation of eyes.

Now Powdered Milk is fed to our babies and children. What do you think is more dangerous, CCA or Powdered milk?

We don't force feed CCA to our young, do we?

Every one knows that the APVMA is loaded with anti-everything types. They are spindoctors just like every other public funded entity that must produce publishable crapola to justify their future funding. They couldn't give 2 knobs of Goat schit about it actually being factual. So long as the Sheeple believe their hype, they will continue to spin away.

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Thank you Wheelin. I read most of it (well, it is 60 pages) and sure enough, CCA treated wood is negligibly toxic. Although banned in the USA for residential use after 1 Jan 2004, it is still available for industrial and agricultural use and is considered quite safe.

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I didn't read a bit of it HB glad you did and had the time to.

I recall back in the 70's picking some up for a boss and unloading it they called it Copper Logs back then. Our hands were covered in it one of the fellows had a shower then go to the Dr's/hospital seems he had a reaction he was a fitness nut. The other 3 of us no problem.

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Thats all well and good.
But, Go and read a MSDS sheet on powdered Milk. You will not believe what it says about causing abnormal intestinal growths in rats and mice. Also the effects of skin contact, irritation of mucus membranes, irritation of eyes.

Now Powdered Milk is fed to our babies and children. What do you think is more dangerous, CCA or Powdered milk?

We don't force feed CCA to our young, do we?

Every one knows thet the APVMA is loaded with anti-everything types. They are spindoctors just like every other public funded entity that must produce publishable crapola to justify their future funding. They couldn't give 2 knobs of Goat schit about it actually being factual. So long as the Sheeple believe their hype, they will continue to spin away.

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Everything you said is true Glock

As for Powder Milk hate the stuff haven't had it since I was no sorry since my kids were babies one drink and I through the shyte out.

Just hope Echnidna has the time to read it.:D

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We don't force feed CCA to our young, do we?

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I can think of some we should have.:roll:

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Originally Posted by

I can think of some we should have.:roll:

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I agree

I hope you dont mind if i chime in with my two cents. I have a degree in Biochemistry and although i am certainly not an expert (cos i ditched biochem for engineering) i do have some knowledge.

On the subject of arsenic and its affects on humans. You have to understand that arsenic can be toxic but only incertain activated forms. The arsenic in seafood is actually contained in the chiton (hard shell) in a form that is not dangerous to humans.. that means we can eat as much as we like and not get sick from it.

its kind of like iron.. we need it to live. Iron is essential for oxygen transportation around the body... an iron ION is present in heamoglobin (in red blood cells) which is what transports the oxygen... we can only absorb iron in its IONIC form.. we can not absord it when its in it ELEMENTAL form.. in other words if you want iron in your diet have a guiness and a big steak and you'll be right.. do not chew your chisel.. it will only break your teeth.

It is the same with arsenic.. in one form its dangerous. In another it isnt. Drawing analogies between a chemical and seafood is not a smart thing to do.. it can confuse people.

Having said that.. i would still wear protective gear when usig treated pine.. id wear protective gear when using any wood.. the saw dust is nasty stuff.

and finally.. onthe subject of MSDS's.. During my chemistry days i was always taught to treat them with a grain of salt... Inflamation of this or irritation of that is all too common on those things and you have to realise that although there are some very nasty chemicals out there, alot of the time the safety issue is about quantity or concentration. I mean pure oxygen actually makes us go crazy.. but we need it to live. I remember looking at the MSDS for vinegar and it scared teh living day lights out of me until i realised what it was refering to...

Anyway.. I hope this helps

Cheers
joe

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

Google is such a wonderfull thing I typed in exactly what you asked Echnidna "documented cases of arsenic poisoning from casual contact with cca treated pine."

and found this
http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/down...rsenic_tox.pdf

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Thank you for that link Wheelin

This information came from that link

However, based on a consideration of the exposure to CCA-treatment timber products, in particular children's play equipment, there was no compelling evidence from the available data to conclude that there was likely to be an unacceptable risk to public health from exposure to arsenic from CCA-treated timber. Based on this finding, there would not seem to be any good justification for taking immediate action to remove existing CCA-treated playground structures.

which just reinforces my conclusion that a safe and sound product was assassinated as a result of a reported hoax from Brazil/

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Originally Posted by echnidna

which just reinforces my conclusion that a safe and sound product was assassinated as a result of a reported hoax from Brazil/

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Absolutely.. pushed along by hippy dippy do gooders that don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision but do have the political clout to influence policy makers like Croyden Conservation Society in Victoria...that have suddenly disappeared off the web since the ban ....funny that.

Also this mob
http://www.baddevelopers.green.net.a...oxictimber.htm

Note how they don't have a tab titled "about us" just a anonymous site expounding unproven, personal attacks on who ever they take a dislike to and reproducing supposedly scientific articles without valid references to the authors credibility or scientific credentials or that of the original published source. :no:

And for those that don't know me I'm very much a greenie - I just hate being fed bull****, by idiot extremists.

:rantoff:

ftje -
Anyway.. I hope this helps

Cheers
joe

Yes your comments were helpful.

CP

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Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

Absolutely.. pushed along by hippy dippy do gooders that don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision but do have the political clout to influence policy makers like Croyden Conservation Society in Victoria...that have suddenly disappeared off the web since the ban ....funny that.

Also this mob
http://www.baddevelopers.green.net.a...oxictimber.htm

Note how they don't have a tab titled "about us" just a anonymous site expounding unproven, personal attacks on who ever they take a dislike to and reproducing supposedly scientific articles without valid references to the authors credibility or scientific credentials or that of the original published source. :no:

And for those that don't know me I'm very much a greenie - I just hate being fed bull****, by idiot extremists.

:rantoff:

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The Croydon Conservation Society never disappeared off the web it's still there, always has been, you just didn't check properly. In fact if you take some time to inform yourself about the problems with CCA treated timber you may get to understand the dangers. There are a number of articles spelling out the problems, all referenced and using substantiated scientific data. www.croydonconservation.org.au

There never was a hoax from Brazil, which I have seen mentioned in some of the posts. That one probably came from the CCA treatment industry to deflect from the real problem about arsenic, chromium and copper leaching from the timber, in amounts that have been considered to be a danger to children by the governments of the U.S., European Union and Australia, to name but a few. This is what they had to say:

The European Union:
(3) The risk assessment was referred to the Scientific Committee on Toxicity, Ecotoxicity and the Environment (CSTEE) for peer review and the CSTEE concluded that the main risks had been identified correctly. These risks included those to human health from the disposal of wood treated with wood preservatives containing copper, chrome and arsenic (CCA) and in particular risks to children’s’ health from the use of CCA treated wood in playground equipment. A risk to the aquatic environment in certain marine waters was also identified.
(4) The CSTEE further advised that in the light of a serious knowledge gap in relation to arsenic-treated wood in landfills it would be advisable to exercise caution by limiting the use of arsenic-based wood preservation to those situations where it is absolutely necessary.
(5) In a further consideration of the health effects of arsenic the CSTEE has concluded that the substance is both genotoxic and a well-known carcinogen, and that it may be appropriate to consider that no threshold exists for carcinogenic effect.

The U.S.

The United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recently concluded that arsenic in CCA treated timber poses an unacceptable risk to humans, particularly children:
“Based on the assumptions used in the staff’s risk assessment, the CPSC technical staff concluded that a young child who plays on CCA treated wood playground structures in early childhood has an increased risk of 2 to 100 per million of developing lung or bladder cancer during his or her lifetime. This is an increased risk above the risk of cancer due to other factors during one’s lifetime. Staff believes that increased risk exists despite the age of the wood and whether it has been manufactured specifically for playgrounds.”


You see the problem was that no-one in Australia bothered to check whether or not this toxic time bomb was actually leaching arsenic. It was never meant for children's playgrounds or furniture or decking that children crawled on. It wasn't until your so-called ' hippy dippy do gooders' from the Croydon Conservation Society decided to do some testing that the leaching was discovered in amounts that shocked the regulators into doing something about it, namely banning it for use where children come into contact with it. The N.Z. government only carried out a literature review, they never did any testing either.


And if you're still not convinced watch SBS tomorrow night at 7.30, Is your house killing you?


Stop shooting the messenger, you may learn something.

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Originally Posted by echnidna

I don't think it is.

There doesn't appear to be any scientific evidence to substantiate any safety hazerds.

Its no longer permitted in new public playgrounds in Oz , but I think this is really a politicians kneejerk reaction to misinformation. AND possible insurance premium hikes

Treated Pine doesn't have to be removed from pre-existing public playgrounds, though it is recommended that it be painted.

If it was dangerous it would be prohibited in domestic situations.

Australia & New Zealand Have the same uniform safety standards for all products. NZ Government has publicly stated cca treated pine is safe.

If You think treated pine is unsafe please tell me why

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You need to do a bit more research on the subject as there is loads of scientific evidence that says it is not safe. Have a look at http://ro.uow.edu.au/artspapers/41/ and then tell me why you think it is safe.

To all the doubters out there. Have a read of this and then tell me why you think it is safe. http://ro.uow.edu.au/artspapers/41/

And please don't write unsubstantiated and unsupported stuff like "I don't think it is.There doesn't appear to be any scientific evidence to substantiate any safety hazerds." or "Their words were that a horse would have to eat a 5' post 6" in diameter a day for the next 15 years to get sick." or "How many kids have you heard dropping dead while playing in the playground from Arsenic poisoning? None?"

So how many people have you heard dropping dead from smoking a cigarette? None? Does that mean it's OK and won't eventually cause some disease or other related problems? What about asbestos, how many people have you heard dropping dead from breathing in asbestos? None? Your reasoning is absurd.

A single 3.6m 150x50 board contains about 27 grams of arsenic - enough arsenic to kill more than 200 adults. A tablespoon (about 20 grams) of CCA wood ash has enough arsenic to kill an adult human.There is an abundance of scientific evidence to say it isn't safe otherwise the U.S. government wouldn't have withdrawn it from ALL domestic situations including garden fences, garden stakes and retaining walls. There are restrictions on CCA use in the US, the European Union, Canada and Japan, and it has been banned altogether in several countries including Denmark, Switzerland, Vietnam and Indonesia. Hardly an indictment on the safety of CCA timber. Where are the health studies on the combined health impacts of copper, chromium and arsenic that leaches from this timber? According to the World Health Organisation and the US Environmental Protection Agency arsenic is ‘a known carcinogen and is acutely toxic’. Chromium isn't much better.

The Australian Workers’ Union (AWU) banned certain methods of usage of construction materials treated with copper chrome arsenate due to the material’s capability for releasing arsenic and ‘therefore exposing workers to unacceptable risks’. The US EPA's Incident Data System contains reports of injury from CCA-treated timber, listing incidents of ‘itching, burning, rashes, neurological symptoms, and breathing problems after handling lumber; damage to nerves in feet and legs from CCA sawdust and fumes from construction; chronic rash; eye swelling from dust; headache, nausea, shakiness, and thirst from cutting timber; rashes on arms from dust; nausea and headache from drilling timber’ It is advised to wear gloves while handling the timber, so does that include the children as well?

Ultraviolet exposure increases the amount of arsenic removed through rainfall by five times. The UV levels in Australia are very high in the summer months, just when children are more likely to be playing on CCA play equipment. Weathered wood leaches more of the toxic trivalent arsenic than unweathered wood, in other words the older it is the worse it gets. This is not the 'naturally occurring arsenic found in prawns' that industry likes to quote.

Governments do not remove toxic chemicals from the marketplace without large amounts of supporting scientific evidence of harm or potential harm. The Croydon Conservation Society is a grass roots organisation funded by its members, and campaigns for a better world for our children. We have no vested interest in the treated timber industry or alternative timbers, we only want safe play spaces for our children. We have been in existence since 1964, (and for 'Bleedin' thumb our website is still there, always has been, hasn't disappeared as you so mockingly write), check it out www.croydonconservation.org.au. We are humbled to think that you believe we have so much influence with the Federal government ('political clout to influence policy makers') If only it were that simple!