Driveway surface

We're going through the throes of getting quotes and working out what to do with our driveway. It's a rural block and the driveway is about 100 metres long and about 3 metres wide (or will be). We have four options (not including the fifth which is to leave it as dirt and clay):

1. Crushed rock - $6,600
2. Spray seal (cold emulsion) - $8,500
3. Hot mix (asphalt) - $13,500
4. Concrete - $17,000

Obviously concrete would be the Rolls Royce surface, but it's a lot of dough (that we haven't got). I think the crushed rock is out when for another 2k we can have something that won't wash out.

The spray seal and the hot mix both need something done with the edges, so there would be extra materials and labour required over and above the quotes I got. But we would probably use a lot of bush rock that we can get for free and do it ourselves. Would maybe need a few pavers for where we need level access to paths etc.

My neighbour has the spray seal and he's happy with it.

Anyone got any comments? The drive is fairly flat, about a 1:40 fall across and about the same back to the house. If we use hot mix or spray seal, we'll do the entry ways (2 of) and a ramp in front of the garage with concrete.

Are you suggesting 200 metres of bush rock to contain the seal or hot mix?

HH.

Give or take. We've already laid at least that much on garden borders around the place. My sister has a rock farm in the hills!

Will the hot mix need to be rolled? If so how will you handle the uneven edge?

HH.

I'd do it after they have gone. They box it up, roll out the roadbase and spray or lay the surface, take away their boxing and then I finish the edges.

Silent, ask your supplier if they can source recycled ashphalt. This is the old hot mix that is stripped off roads before they are resealed. Starts out looking like clumpy crusher dust but it compacts quite quickly and finishes up like a sealed road......it's good stuff.

OK I'll give them a call. They get their asphalt from Bairnsdale, which is about 4 hours away from here in Victoria. Not many people around these parts that do it, so it might be a tall order asking for something outside their normal range but it can't hurt to ask.

Try asking Bega Shire Council who their road base contractors are. They have to get rid of this stuff somehow and someone local will know what they do with it. Perhaps Eden Quarries knows....?

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They have to get rid of this stuff somehow

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You're assuming they ever rip up and reseal! They bought a million dollar pothole fixing machine to replace the two guys with the shovels who used to do it. Some of the roads around here are 95% patched potholes....

Concreting the length in 6 x 3m panels yourself is an option.

Seventeen panels required.

Costing:

Concrete say 6m x 3m x 0.1m conc at $150 cub = $270

Reo 6m x 3m x SL72 x $1400/t = $60

Edgeboard 3 x 90mm x 60mm laminated form timber + plastic + reo chairs + bobcat to prep site + compressible filler between panels + screed + broom (for finish) and a float - say $1000

EQUALS 17 x 330 + 1000 = $6600 say $7000.

Placing concrete is easy inside a well boxed edgeboard if your truck can back right up to the site.

Making this driveway would be a doddle if you are happy with a broom finish. To be honest I think the amount of work you would put into bushrocking the edge of a bitumin driveway would exceed the amount of work needed to level out the wet concrete and broom finish it by a fair bit.

I did my driveway here in 3m square panels (unreinforced) my driveway is 7m wide and 18m long - but insanity prevailed and I mixed mine onsite with an electic mixer - I don't recommend that - but just pushing the stuff around and screeding - bit of a trowel then broom finish is child's play. Yes my panels are small and it looks like a checkerboard but that is unimportant because I knew it would be largely damaged with the major works to follow (pool building - reshaping yard) and I will now do a topping skin and pave over mine.

Even if you did 2 panels a weekend - be done before you know it and only a few hours each morning taken up.

Personally I would do all the regular box shaped units myself then once at the house get a pro in to sort out this irregular shaped bit if I wasn't 100% satisfied with my work.

Recommend starting the driveway half way and working towards the road - by the time you reach the road you should be a concreting legend even in your sleep - then back to the middle and work towards the house.

Maybe this gives you one more option to at least consider.

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Originally Posted by SilentButDeadly

Silent, ask your supplier if they can source recycled ashphalt. This is the old hot mix that is stripped off roads before they are resealed. Starts out looking like clumpy crusher dust but it compacts quite quickly and finishes up like a sealed road......it's good stuff.

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Maybe they do a better job these days, but 15 years ago, no make that 20 years ago we had 300 metres of this stuff put onto a track we had on our farm - it never looked better than aweful - yes some parts of it held together and looked okay (maybe10%) about 20% washed away as if it were lose gravel and really it stopped us getting bogged on the track, BUT . . . I can only say it would have to have improved alot since then to be anything worthwhile . . . maybe it has ??? Lose stones were easier to relevel than this stuff because it had the benefit of sticking together when you wanted to scape it flat and had the loseness of gravel when rain displaced it.

Another problem with it especially on clay was when it rained and you drove on it the soft clay would gobble up the bitumin leaving potholes - it was a pain for years - we tried solving it by getting more of the stuff and building up the layers with some success, but limited.

I poured my own drive in Sydney but it was only 6x6. Did it in 4 squares over two weekends and mixed it all with the mixer.

You're right, I hadn't really considered that option, probably for two reasons - one that I really need another major job to do on the weekends like I need a hole in the head, and two that I really, really hate concreting!!

But, yes I suppose I should consider it. I think our concrete prices down here are a bit more than $150 per cube but I suppose I should ring Boral and get a price.

But I really, really, really hate concreting.

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Originally Posted by silentC

I poured my own drive in Sydney but it was only 6x6. Did it in 4 squares over two weekends and mixed it all with the mixer.

You're right, I hadn't really considered that option, probably for two reasons - one that I really need another major job to do on the weekends like I need a hole in the head, and two that I really, really hate concreting!!

But, yes I suppose I should consider it. I think our concrete prices down here are a bit more than $150 per cube but I suppose I should ring Boral and get a price.

But I really, really, really hate concreting.

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You hate it because you mixed it yourself - when you don't have to shovel lift it but just push it around a bit and the stuff you get from a ready mix place is easier, normally smoother than home made stuff it is a lot easier.

One really big tip I have found concrete 3 times easier to place if the aggregate is 10mm max rather than the 20mm stuff - it's like icing a cake.

A lot easier than hauling bushrocks :)

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A lot easier than hauling bushrocks

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Ahh but I get my old man to do that!

I'm presently about 2/3 of the way through my third 10 cubic metres of concrete blend for this place - all put through my electric mixer - makes about 95 tonnes of concrete - should be finished soon :rolleyes: - well no later than end of next year anyway :D - got 100 sq m of paving to do too - I know what you mean about busy weekends :) . In your case near $10K is a lot to save.

OK I rang for a price. $185 per cube + GST.

That's the little mini mix guy. The big guys I wouldn't even bother with. Don't think they're any cheaper anyway.

My wife is going to hate you and she'll take it out on you when we come up to Brissy too.

Well I had a great long reply and it got lost when a message came up saying server too busy :(( Try once more.

The way I would approach it:

Start with first pour in the middle of the driveway. Add to both ends of this so you can prepare two areas during the week and pour them both on the weekend either a few hours each morning or both on same day.

Ensure you have 10mm ableflex between each pour to allow for thermal expansion.

Use plastic under each slab - it gives you more working time with the concrete and helps with strength gain and makes concrete a lot easier to place. Plastic come in 100m rolls.

Your dad should be good for helping with levelling the concrete as you screed it out. Put him on the square end shovel and if you ensure the concrete sits about 20mm up the leading face of the screed you will find concrete placement a breeze. Slab 3m wide - screed 4m long.

Broom finish across the slab - might seem obvious - but it is both easier as this is only 3m direction but also as it will assist with vehicle traction on driveway.

When reo is delivered get them to drop it off in a few locations - no one wants to carry a sheet of mesh 100m.

Get edge formwork such that it is long enough to fit the mesh without the mesh needing trimming - eg if mesh 6m long then edgeboard 6.1m long minimum. Use 90 x 60mm laminated formwork edgeboards as they are rigid and will need minimal fixing and will hold shape and not bulge

You may already know most of this - but someone else reading may learn something new. Or may disagree and teach me something new.

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Originally Posted by silentC

My wife is going to hate you and she'll take it out on you when we come up to Brissy too.

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:D

How thick do ya reckon? The concretor says 100mm.

Just ran it by the missus and she actually thinks it's a good idea. Scarey...

Silent sounds as though you are going to be a very busy boy!
I would have serious second thoughts about getting any sort of roadbase in. My missus uncle has a property with a drive i would say sounds on par maybe even a little longer than yours and he got a bunch of contractors in were there for 4 days rolling and compacting it stood up quite well for about 2 years the problem was when it rained, and we have not had a great deal of that is the contractors did not put any grates across the drive let alone rubble trenches so the water had somewhere to go... If you can go concrete that would be the way to go but Teejay is that really the price of concrete? sounds awfully cheap to me and oh yeah dont forget the reo

Come on Silent Concreting is not that bad I would rather dig a trench or concrete than paint anyday

You do realise Silent you wont save any money because your wife has already got what you will save spent on something and thats probably why she thinks it is a good idea.

PS silent duck whilst your at the hardware store next check out the ranges of stencils and oxide colours go the hole hog it is easy throw the stencil on while the crete is wet roll it in with a sponge roller on extendable handle and throw the oxide in pull the stencil up later on in the arvo and blow off excess with leaf blower

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Originally Posted by silentC

How thick do ya reckon? The concretor says 100mm.

Just ran it by the missus and she actually thinks it's a good idea. Scarey...

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If you are using reo then 90 mm (same as forming boards) should be plenty adequate. It really depends on what you are going to drive on it and what the substrate underneath is. We commonly pour 75mm with no reo here in Perth for domestic driveways but we have nice hollow sand as a substrate that does not expand or contract.

If you have the drive graded dead level so that 90mm is consistent so you don't have hollows that are 130mm and rises that are only 60mm, use reo, expansion foam between the pours and put line joints in the panels to allow for further movement you should have a pretty solid driveway.

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Originally Posted by patty

PS silent duck whilst your at the hardware store next check out the ranges of stencils and oxide colours go the hole hog it is easy throw the stencil on while the crete is wet roll it in with a sponge roller on extendable handle and throw the oxide in pull the stencil up later on in the arvo and blow off excess with leaf blower

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Not my taste but is popular with some - problem is oxides fade and wash out over time.

Another option is exposed agg is easy too, spray a sugar solution over the concrete once you have screeded off (stops the concrete going off) then high pressure the surface off after an hour or so (depends on weather) no need to broom off as it gives a rough non slip surface. Depending on the rock source the concrete company uses this can look very good. It is all the rage here at the moment and you order the concrete pre-coloured and with certain stone colouring to suit your taste. Alternatively you seed the surface with a rock colour or type you like by tossing the rock onto the surrface of the concrete once it is screeded level and then trowel it in. Once you wash the fines off the surface all the seeded rock becomes exposed. Interestingly this was very popular in the 1960 and 70's and has made a big comeback. On residential jobs we seal the concrete to enhance the colour of the rock as it gives it that permanent wet look.

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Originally Posted by silentC

How thick do ya reckon? The concretor says 100mm.

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That's what I would use :wink:

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I'll stick with the broom finish if I go that way, I don't need to make it any more work than it already is. Did I mention I hate concreting?

Everything TeeJay says is true and good! :rolleyes:

EXCEPT the bit about doing it yourself.

Now that you are emotionally committed to concrete, lie down for a bit, and think about how sore you back will be.... it's a 100 metre long driveway for crying out loud!!

Think of how long it will take to finish Rory's cupboard in between physio sessions. THINK MAN, THINK!! :oo:

And if you think about it, you're already committed to spending $9k, so it's gone, poof!, out of the equation. All you have to do is save 8, and you can have a chap do it!

Crickey, you could easily spend that on xrays!

P
:D :D :D

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

All you have to do is save 8, and you can have a chap do it!

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Wouldn't it be better to get a bloke to do it? A chap would keep taking breaks for a gin and tonic and as for the endless whinging about getting his trousers dirty.......!

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All you have to do is save 8

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Oh, that's all I have to do? You make it sound so easy!

I look at it this way - my back is already stuffed, so I might as well get what use out of it I can before the vertebraes fuse and I can no longer bend over. And what better way than to spend the next month of Sundays stretched out over a trowel?

Besides, I've got the old bloke to do the heavy lifting (see I already have a chap of sorts. A bit battered and worse for wear but he does alright for an old fella).

And did I mention we need a new washing machine, about another 40 square metres of concreting done around the place, the house painted, a roller door on the storage room, a deck built out the front, ...

You get the point :)

My drive is about 70 meters in length and was finished in hot mix. The house was about 13 years old when we bought it 5 years ago so its been in use for 18 years. Its edged in bricks, cemented in at right angle to the drive. Looks good and will last a lot of years yet. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it as a drive, It gets pretty heavy use with four vehicles and has stood up really well.
Had a concrete drive in Sydney before we moved up here and even though it was reinforced and 100mm thick, it still cracked after a while and looked unsightly. Best drive I had was also in Sydney, concreted and then paved but was only a short drive so wasn't too costly.Wouldn't be practical over the distance you are talking about.
I'm like you Silent, hate concreting and have never been real happy with my results.
Over such a long drive you need to get it right otherwise it will look awful.If you decide to go that route though, get a quote for the bigger loads, mini skip is the dearest way to buy it and the difference in price is quite significant.

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If you decide to go that route though, get a quote for the bigger loads, mini skip is the dearest way to buy it and the difference in price is quite significant.

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The local mini mix guy has a big truck too, it's just that he deals with the little guys. If you're not doing a house slab or building a shopping centre, Boral doesn't want to know you.

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Originally Posted by silentC

You get the point :)

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Ahh yes, I see where you're coming from, you don't want to delay the domino, just for a driveway!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

Hi Silent,

I think using reo is a waste of time and money.
That is unless you are going to use dowels between each panel. Using dowels is a pain and if not set correctly will cause the concrete to crack anyway.

My two Bobs worth in order of economics


1.Gravel over crushed stone is good when done well but requires drainage to be addressed and some ongoing maintenance.

2.Sprayseal over crushed stone is exactly the same except the sprayseal will disapear quite quickly.

3.Asphalt is exactly the same but less maintenance (its will still crack and to do it well the subgrade and subbase preparation costs starts to make concrete more viable.

4.Concrete even on a minimal prepared base will last quite a long time and any cracking from lack of steel can be lived with unless you are close to trees.. even then roots will stuff it up.

5. Segmented paving bordered by white post and rail fences and a few horses running around in the manicured padocks if you really want to impress the neigbours.:wink:

Asphalt is pretty much out of the equation because based on the quotes I got (which are inclusive of prep work), for 14k asphalt I might as well spend a bit more on concrete.

Reo - well, yeah I suppose. It doesn't add that much to the cost though and I've got a couple of panels left over from the house slab. I didn't put any in the driveway up in Sydney.

Cracking - not really bothered about that because even if it does crack, it will still be sound to drive over and it wont wash away.

The neighbours across the road put down road base and the first time it rained they had a 1 foot wash out across it that made it impassable. She was parking out the front for weeks until they got it fixed.

Haven't got a quote on paving. I did a paving job of a similar size up in Sydney once. Big job but looks good. Hmm white fences you say? Will I need a fountain in the middle too?

My first thought was to use gravel. Drainage is an issue but a few sump drains here and there would take care of it. I suppose that would be the look I'd like most but not great for the kids on their skateboards.

Decisions, decisions...

Silent, sounds like you have made up your mind and leaning strongly in favour of concrete and I think it is the best taking it all round but are you seriously going to tackle it yourself? Must admit I wouldn't be game myself, but then again, maybe 20 years ago. :D
If I could afford it and had a drive that long to do. I would go the reinforced concrete.
Would be interesting to see a pic of the drive when its completed.

Not sure I've made up my mind but I would prefer concrete from the maintenance point of view.

Whether to do it myself or not - well, I'm not that concerned about it from the ability point of view, it's just the thought of all the work that gives me second thoughts. It certainly is nice to watch someone else doing the hard yakka. Paying someone to do the lot would chew up the budget that I've set aside for everything that needs to be done. It's a matter of what can be done with the resources on hand.

All great journeys start with the first step.

Take another leaf out of the book of concretors and do the pours first thing in the morning - if your all prepped so the concrete arrives before 7am you'll be finished it by somewhere near 10am for your first few then nearer 9am as you get better.

Ideally one person on the screed and two just making sure the mix is pretty level against leading face of the screed - one can do it but it's a lot easier with one each side of the screed guy - even kids can do this bit :wink: - it's fun for them.

Don't forget what I told you - smaller aggregate is a lot easier to push about and use plastic membrane makes it slide nicely too.

If your mini mix guy is decent he will move the feed along nicely with the pour and the amount you have to push about will be minimal.

For me I never bothered worrying over it a lot with a timber trowel - just worked back across it a few times with the screed from the side and then once it's set enough - light finish with a broom.

If I weren't so far away I would have helped you with the first three to get you going.

The plastic and the reo will also help avoid early plastic shrinkage cracking as the concrete sets - once the concrete has set and you have broom finished it you will do the concrete a favour if you decide to lay a weighted down sheet of plastic over the panel - the more moisture you retain the better the concrete will cure.

Biggest risk to big concrete pours we get involved in (up to 50 x 50m pours) is early plastic shrinkage cracking and it is at highest risk on windy days when the breeze dries out the concrete. If the concrete is allowed to set and has no cracks then the concrete itself develops a tensile strength capacity - if there is a crack then tensile capacity of concrete is zero (except what reo adds to the section) - so an uncracked slab is less likely to develop cracks in the future - many slabs have micro-cracks and under stress later in life (be it from load, sortening etc) will develop visible cracking.

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

EXCEPT the bit about doing it yourself.

Now that you are emotionally committed to concrete, lie down for a bit, and think about how sore you back will be.... it's a 100 metre long driveway for crying out loud!!

Think of how long it will take to finish Rory's cupboard in between physio sessions. THINK MAN, THINK!! :oo:

Crickey, you could easily spend that on xrays!

P
:D :D :D

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You make it sound like it has to be done in a weekend - a mere 2 panels a weekend would have it done in two months - 2 to 3 hours each morning and some prep work during the week (another hour max).

When I did my driveway I did a panel a night 3m x 3m over two and a half weeks - took 2 hours a panel - forming, mixing, pouring screeding and cleaning up - it's gotta be a lot easier when someone mixes it for you and puts it at your feet - no barrowing, no heaving up into a mixer.

100m or 500m - what does it matter if you pace yourself and not kill yourself. Just be smart in your approach start with lower expectations and build up - you'll probably get fitter - not cactus.

Teejay you sound like the "man" when it comes to pouring concrete now I have a question I hope you can help me with, I poured a slab 18 mtrs long by about 3 mtrs wide about 70 mm thick it runs parrallel with the front of my house) poured it in one hit! as I had to hire a concrete pump ( a very steep block) and did not want to hire it a second time the slab is up against a retaining wall on one side that runs the full width of the house,and the other is up against the house with an everhard plastic drain between that also runs the full length of the house,"I hope you get the picture" now I only put an expansion strip ( on a roll)across the front of the house (18 mtrs) hard up against the brickwork when I was pouring but I did not put any across ways as the drain was in the way then I would have to cut 2 strips one either side of the drain is it possible and I think I have seen it done using a concrete saw and cut the concrete in sections to aleviate any stress? If so do you cut the full thickness of the slab? or just half way? Any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by patty

Teejay you sound like the "man" when it comes to pouring concrete now I have a question I hope you can help me with, I poured a slab 18 mtrs long by about 3 mtrs wide about 70 mm thick it runs parrallel with the front of my house) poured it in one hit! as I had to hire a concrete pump ( a very steep block) and did not want to hire it a second time the slab is up against a retaining wall on one side that runs the full width of the house,and the other is up against the house with an everhard plastic drain between that also runs the full length of the house,"I hope you get the picture" now I only put an expansion strip ( on a roll)across the front of the house (18 mtrs) hard up against the brickwork when I was pouring but I did not put any across ways as the drain was in the way then I would have to cut 2 strips one either side of the drain is it possible and I think I have seen it done using a concrete saw and cut the concrete in sections to aleviate any stress? If so do you cut the full thickness of the slab? or just half way? Any suggestions?

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Yes Patty that is pretty straight forward to accept shortening of the slab the slab is cut (not full depth) and then as the slab shortens it develops a crack in the remaining bit of concrete - this is fine for slab shortening BUT it will not account for slab expansion. Slabs expand from thermal effects and to account for this you need a gap FULL DEPTH of the slab. If your area gets those 30-35 deg days and as you drive along a road have a look at all the long thin concrete panels in traffic islands how they have expanded such that they push against each other and lift up at the joints.

To make an expansion joint work it must be a gap - that is either you put compressible material in place before placing the concrete like ableflex OR you make the cut full depth then seal the top face with silicon type sealant to allow the gap to close and also to stop the gap filling with dirt and crap that will prevent the gap closing.

Your saw will only cut a gap a few millimetres wide - so you have two choices - make more cuts or make this cut wider and clean out the rubble - easier to do a few cuts - but your choice.