Illegality of repairing electrical equipment

Normally I don't participate in electrical type of threads anymore as it is illegal to do your own wiring and repairs in Australia, and I will not aid or abet someone to break the law.

However the following needs to be corrected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisp

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

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In Victoria the ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT 1998 - SECT 38 provides that a person must not carry out or offer to carry out or hold out that the person carries out or is willing to carry out any class of electrical work that, under the regulations, is a prescribed class of electrical work for the purposes of this Division unless the person is-

(d) licensed under this Division as an electrical equipment worker in respect of electrical equipment work of that class.

Electrical equipment is defined by the said act to be :

"electrical equipment" means any appliance, wire, fitting, cable, conduit or apparatus that generates, uses, conveys or controls (or that is intended to generate, use, convey or control) electricity;



Further Section 57 of the Act states:

Prescribed electrical equipment

(1) Energy Safe Victoria, by notice published in the Government Gazette, may declare that any class, description or type of electrical equipment is, from a date specified in the notice, prescribed electrical equipment for the purposes of this Act.

(2) A person must not supply or offer to supply electrical equipment prescribed under sub-section (1) unless the equipment-

(a) is approved by Energy Safe Victoria and is marked as prescribed .... (etc)


Regulations under this provision made By Energy Safe Victoria are detailed here and your attention is drawn specifically to the " Appliance Connector".

From this it is clear that any electrical appliance using a cord and plug to connect to the Electricity supply is an electrical equipment which can only be repaired by a licensed person. No doubt other states are the same.

So those that thought they could repair their own appliances are wrong and it is illegal in this state. So if the appliance doesn't work take it to an authorised repairer.


Peter.

Party Pooper :wink: :D

I worked for a company that is situated in country Victoria in a previous life.

And they had me wire up aaaaaaall their Wool Presses over a period of about 3 years, Im talking 1000's.

When I enquired if what I was doing was legit, they told me not to worry as the onus was on them to get them wired properly as I was just a dumb employee.

Man, I was even doing all their 3 phase stuff. :cool:

Al :U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Normally I don't participate in electrical type of threads anymore as it is illegal to do your own wiring and repairs in Australia, and I will not aid or abet someone to break the law.

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You are only perpetuating a self serving mith about the electrical profession, hopefully in good faith. See my post in the "taboo" thread.

I know what you are saying Peter
BUT

Radio/Tv technicians work on mains powered electronic stuff,

So where do they fit into the regulations you have stated.

p.s. I agree that home electrics should be prohibited in normal situations.

Peter,

Thank you for your post and the relevant links. I've been having a read but I find the legal terminology and definitions somewhat confusing. One extreme reading would be that we need a licensed person to "connect" our "appliances" to the "supply". So does this mean we cannot plug in any electrical equipment into a power point - I doubt it - more like I don't know how to read the legal wording correctly.

I will, however, follow up with Energy Safe Victoria in relation to my work circumstances. I have in the past spoken to the OCEI (which is now part of Energy Safe) on these matters but I'm interested to see if the revised legislation has any impact.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisp

Peter,

Thank you for your post and the relevant links. I've been having a read but I find the legal terminology and definitions somewhat confusing. ... more like I don't know how to read the legal wording correctly.

I will, however, follow up with Energy Safe Victoria in relation to my work circumstances. I have in the past spoken to the OCEI (which is now part of Energy Safe) on these matters but I'm interested to see if the revised legislation has any impact.

Chris

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Good move. A professional knows when he is out of his depth :) . I bet you will find that it is the same as in SA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

You are only perpetuating a self serving myth about the electrical profession, hopefully in good faith. See my post in the "taboo" thread.

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Definitely in good faith as in my working life I was an Accountant with an extensive grounding in legal affairs.

I saw your post in the Taboo thread and IMO you are putting a wrong interpretation on that reference as I believe it applies to someone employed as an apprentice working under a licensed person in homebuilding works. That is not the same as a homeowner/occupier doing wiring work for and under the supervision of an electrician.


Peter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisp

One extreme reading would be that we need a licensed person to "connect" our "appliances" to the "supply". So does this mean we cannot plug in any electrical equipment into a power point - I doubt it - more like I don't know how to read the legal wording correctly.

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Chris, it does not mean that you can't plug in an appliance into a GPO, but that any work in repairing an appliance must be done by a licensed person and that the making of an appliance must be approved also.

So for instance changing a plug on an appliance is illegal in Victoria unless licensed and using or supplying a home made lampshade is alos illegal.


Peter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by echnidna

Radio/Tv technicians work on mains powered electronic stuff,

So where do they fit into the regulations you have stated.

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Bob,

Section 40 dealing with licensing of electrical workers is as follows:

(1) Energy Safe Victoria may, in accordance with the regulations, license, or renew the licence of, a natural person as an electrical worker in respect of a specified class of electrical work.

(2) A licence may be issued or renewed subject to any conditions that Energy Safe Victoria thinks fit, including a condition that it applies to only one class of electrical work.

So Radio/Tv technicians working on mains powered electronic stuff, would need a licence specifying their class of work that they do else it wouldn't be allowed to be connected to the electricity supplies.

Peter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Chris, it does not mean that you can't plug in an appliance into a GPO

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Peter,

I understand what you mean. But have a read of the following extract taken from the Electricity Safety Act 1998

7. Functions of Energy Safe Victoria

The functions of Energy Safe Victoria under this Act are-

(c) to inspect and test electrical equipment, electrical installations and electrical work for compliance with the specified safety standards;

38. Electrical workers

A person must not carry out or offer to carry out or hold out that the person carries out or is willing to carry out any class of electrical work that, under the regulations, is a prescribed class of electrical work for the purposes of this Division unless the person is-

(c) licensed under this Division as an electrical connection worker in respect of electrical connection work of that class; or

From the definitions:

"electrical work" means electrical connection work, electrical equipment work, electrical inspection work or electrical installation work;

"electrical connection work" means connecting or disconnecting electrical equipment to or from a supply of electricity;

I find it vague and confusing.

Chris

Whilst the above proves that it is illegal in Victoria another aspect to consider is your house insurance.

My brother during his working life was a loss adjuster( note not a claims manager as they are now called :D ) for an major insurance company. He told me that his job was to adjust fire claims.

When they received a claim for fire damage he would investigate the fire scene, check the fire brigade report to see if the fire hot spots involved any electrical appliances. If so they would reject or reduce the claim depending on the circumstances if there was any possibility of any illegal work or the appliance was not kept in good working order.

He would also check house and contents values to see if they were underinsured and then the final claim, as already adjusted, would be paid out on a pro rata basis if underinsured.

His experience was that only 20 % of claims were paid out without any downward adjustments, usually when the claimant could prove that electrical repairs on old equipment was done by repair shops.

Peter.

I think it is a shocking state of affairs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisp

[/I]

(c) licensed under this Division as an electrical connection worker in respect of electrical connection work of that class; or

From the definitions:

"electrical connection work" means connecting or disconnecting electrical equipment to or from a supply of electricity;

I find it vague and confusing.

Chris

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Chris,

I think C referring to electrical connection worker refers to the licensing of someone to remove and reconnect hard wired appliances that are permanently connected to the electrical system, eg HWS, Airconditioners or in Ozwinner"s case woolpresses.


Peter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisp

"electrical connection work" means connecting or disconnecting electrical equipment to or from a supply of electricity;

Chris

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Which means I cant unplug any appliance, or flick the switch?

Al :?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

Which means I cant unplug any appliance, or flick the switch?

Al :?

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No, see above, but woolpresses are a different matter.:D

Peter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Normally I don't participate in electrical type of threads anymore as it is illegal to do your own wiring and repairs in Australia, and I will not aid or abet someone to break the law.

However the following needs to be corrected.




In Victoria the ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT 1998 - SECT 38 provides that a person must not carry out or offer to carry out or hold out that the person carries out or is willing to carry out any class of electrical work that, under the regulations, is a prescribed class of electrical work for the purposes of this Division unless the person is-

(d) licensed under this Division as an electrical equipment worker in respect of electrical equipment work of that class.

Electrical equipment is defined by the said act to be :

"electrical equipment" means any appliance, wire, fitting, cable, conduit or apparatus that generates, uses, conveys or controls (or that is intended to generate, use, convey or control) electricity;



Further Section 57 of the Act states:

Prescribed electrical equipment

(1) Energy Safe Victoria, by notice published in the Government Gazette, may declare that any class, description or type of electrical equipment is, from a date specified in the notice, prescribed electrical equipment for the purposes of this Act.

(2) A person must not supply or offer to supply electrical equipment prescribed under sub-section (1) unless the equipment-

(a) is approved by Energy Safe Victoria and is marked as prescribed .... (etc)


Regulations under this provision made By Energy Safe Victoria are detailed here and your attention is drawn specifically to the " Appliance Connector".

From this it is clear that any electrical appliance using a cord and plug to connect to the Electricity supply is an electrical equipment which can only be repaired by a licensed person. No doubt other states are the same.

So those that thought they could repair their own appliances are wrong and it is illegal in this state. So if the appliance doesn't work take it to an authorised repairer.


Peter.

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And of course you never speed and endanger anyone elses life when you do it... Never "forgot" to declare a bit of your income from the government... Electical is a funny thing - I've never seen so many people get so uptight about it - ya it's illegal but so is just about everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toolin Around

And of course you never speed and endanger anyone elses life when you do it... Never "forgot" to declare a bit of your income from the government... Electical in this country is a funny thing - I've never seen so many people get so uptight about it - ya it's illegal but so is just about everything here.

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Hey....you cant post about things being illegal, its illegal.

Al :p

Yeah Toolin around, I think so too. I couldn't get over the angst associated with electricity when i moved here. In Canada we used to do anything we wanted to our own home wiring-the theory being that the consequences of screwing it up were an obvious deterrent to bodgy work.

There are plenty of books on the subject that provide enough knowledge to, with the proper mind set and tools, do a first class job of the basic things. I have wired houses and factories and industrial machines and boiler controls and rebuilt motors and phase converters and appliances. I don't feel like a criminal, but rather a productive and self reliant citizen for doing these things.

I wonder, is there a similar prohibition on doing your own brake job then driving down my street? Or flying your own aeroplane over my house? No? I guess I need to belong to a stronger guild.

The statute as quoted above does not define "connect", and thus is an example of a bad law in both concept and wording. As it stands it is too vague to be enforced, or at least so says my lawyer friend.

Cheers

Greg, (who can find no difference in the rate of electrocutions or building fires between Australia and Canada.)

Why not dig into this one as well ... it's good fun

So far I've learnt that an extension cord passes electricity (at least it does when it's plugged in an turned on) so we can't repair it ...

BUT

An extension cord isn't a hard wired device so we can repair it ourselves ...

BUT

As it requires a "special" ticket to do so we can't repair it :no:

I'M SO CONFUSED :C :C

Are we allowed to wire up our outdoor 12V lights and irrigation controllers without the mighty "ticket" as there's no mention of voltage in the lead post on this thread??????? :? :? :?

Interesting, does all this only mean mains powered devices? Electricity is in a hell of alot of things.... Don't change your watch battery, don't plug those speakers in, don't put that newly charged battery in your drill (it charged off the mains) don't replace a light bulb. Also the statement on the outside of electronic equipment usually reads something like "Warning no user servicable parts inside" but no legal warning as to the illegallity of opening it. Lets take a typical portable stereo..... 1)is it illegal to remove the screws and remove the cover?(no electricity involved here) 2)with the cover removed is it illegal to use a can of compressed air to blow out the acumulated dust and ants?(no electricity involved here either) 3) Can I repair or replace components on the output side if the stepdown transformer? (I know... not on all appliances...but most) this ranges from 3-12volts usually. Is it a voltage issue or is it a vague "Joe" type "Now don't you worry your pretty little head about that!" issue. If it is voltage at what voltage is the cutoff????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Definitely in good faith as in my working life I was an Accountant with an extensive grounding in legal affairs.

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That makes two of us- which means one of us is making a terrible fool of himself - bring it on! :)

Quote:

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I saw your post in the Taboo thread and IMO you are putting a wrong interpretation on that reference as I believe it applies to someone employed as an apprentice working under a licensed person in homebuilding works. That is not the same as a homeowner/occupier doing wiring work for and under the supervision of an electrician.


Peter

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Thank you. If this is your understanding of the law, I have no worries at all:U .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

Which means I cant unplug any appliance, or flick the switch?

Al :?

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No, it simply means that you can not wire an appliance directly to the "fixed" wiring, without a plug and socket.

Wow, 21 posts already the wires are running too hot better call an electrician:D

BTW who will support my push for legislating against DIY motor vehicle repairs:wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisp

Peter,



I understand what you mean. But have a read of the following extract taken from the Electricity Safety Act 1998

.............

I find it vague and confusing.

Chris

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That simply means that you can not work as an electrician if you are not licensed, and that the Board will check that you indeed are if you do. It does not mean that John Doe can not do electrical work for himself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

So for instance ... using a home made lampshade is alos illegal.


Peter.

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Doubt it. Reference please? Even if correct, however, this is a provision about the owner's obligation to maintain safe premises, not dissimilar to the the prohibition to light a fire in the backyard. Different issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m2c1Iw

BTW who will support my push for legislating against DIY motor vehicle repairs:wink:

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Ok, for what I care... I don't know the boot from the bonnet!:D

So as usual a group of members who don't agree with our laws, especially immigrants who come from countries where apparently it is legal to do your wiring, decided to stir again.:((

So like SilentC said elsewhere "Are any of my points hitting home, or am I just wasting my breath?"

As I said in my opening post normally I don't participate in electrical type of threads anymore as I will not debate the relative merits of our existing laws, I just wanted to correct an incorrect view held by some members.

So I will not participate anymore in this discussion, especially since Toolin Around feels it appropriate to question my integrity by suggesting that I endanger life whilst driving or cheat on my taxes.:(( :(( :((


Peter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramps

I'M SO CONFUSED :C :C

Are we allowed to wire up our outdoor 12V lights and irrigation controllers without the mighty "ticket" as there's no mention of voltage in the lead post on this thread??????? :? :? :?

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Yep. You are seeing the point. The reason the voltage is not mentioned is because you can indeed do electrical work yourself provided you do not endanger yourself and others. Using 12V it is extremely unlikely (not impossible - you can still produce a spark) that you would. An insurance company bent on ****ing you could still try to allege contributing negligence if there is a fire, for example.

Peter,

If it is any consolation, I can see where you are coming from (although I think that silentC is just a stirrer:D).

I am quite intrigued (connived?) by the Electricity Safety Act and its possible interpretation. Just as you can interpret it to mean no electrical work is permitted unless licensed, I can (ridiculously) interpret it to read one one can plug in any appliance unless licensed. My understanding is that it applies to fixed wiring.

I have emailed the OCEI for clarification as it seems very vague. I'll let you know what the OCEI says when I hear back.

I appreciate the time and effort you (and others) have taken to respond in the forum with your views.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

So as usual a group of members who don't agree with our laws, especially immigrants who come from countries where apparently it is legal to do your wiring, decided to stir again.:((

So like SilentC said elsewhere "Are any of my points hitting home, or am I just wasting my breath?"

Peter.

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Well Peter, you started it. Pretty hard to get around those pesky multi-cultural immigrants with their quaint folk customs, ain't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m2c1Iw

Wow, 21 posts already the wires are running too hot better call an electrician:D

BTW who will support my push for legislating against DIY motor vehicle repairs:wink:

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Why stop there?!?

I'll support your push for making DIY motor vehicle repairs illegal.

You can support my push for making DIY boatbuilding and repairs illegal.

Anything to do with building trades now, you need a license. I make staircases, kitchens, benches and doors in my workshop, I can't install them, I've gotta have a licensed tradie to do the installation.

If we're not careful we'll soon need a license to take a crap.:rolleyes: :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

So as usual a group of members who don't agree with our laws, especially immigrants who come from countries where apparently it is legal to do your wiring, decided to stir again.:((

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I would just like to point out, in case anyone is worried that I maybe one of those "immigrants" ... given I have an Illinois location and all.... I am a third generation Australian originally from Western Australia. I have been here in the USA for 3 years and do intended to live in Australia. (I'm over here because of my wife's work, she is a Australian scientist posted over here) I find it intriguing to compare standards and accepted practises from around the world. You should have seen some of the electrical work I saw in Mexico!! Sheesh!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank&Earnest

The reason the voltage is not mentioned is because you can indeed do electrical work yourself provided you do not endanger yourself and others.

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:ranton:

That is an extremely irresponsible statement. It is illegal to do your own prescribed electrical work. If you read the rest of the act you will find that ELV (Extra Low Voltage) i.e. 12V is not prescribed electrical work so it can be done by anyone. Work on appliances is prescribed so it can only be carried out by those holding the appropriate licence (unrestricted or appliance repairer)

I should say that this is purely my understanding of the law and i am in no way an expert. The laws vary from state to state but not by a large degree.
I agree, the act and the wiring regulations are very confusing but individual interpretaions should not be stated as fact. (I can feel another thread topic coming on)

For the record i hold an unrestricted wiring licence in Vic and a Qualified Supervisors certificate in NSW.

:rantoff:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

So as usual a group of members who don't agree with our laws, especially immigrants who come from countries where apparently it is legal to do your wiring, decided to stir again.:((

So like SilentC said elsewhere "Are any of my points hitting home, or am I just wasting my breath?"

As I said in my opening post normally I don't participate in electrical type of threads anymore as I will not debate the relative merits of our existing laws, I just wanted to correct an incorrect view held by some members.

So I will not participate anymore in this discussion, especially since Toolin Around feels it appropriate to question my integrity by suggesting that I endanger life whilst driving or cheat on my taxes.:(( :(( :((


Peter.

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Sorry if you feel that I was questioning your integrity. Everyone speeds and it endangers lives - there is no debating this. But we do it anyways because we can and it's done so much no one cares. Everyone also conveniently forgets to put all there income on their tax return. It's another area where everyone does it - but again it's an accepted form of illegal activity. But for some reason the law alwasy comes up as to why you shouldn't do anything that's remotely electrical related...

It's obvious the electic shocks kills far far less than driving over the speed limit does but for some reason people get all bent out of shape with doing even the minorist repair to a appliance... saying don't you dare it illegal. And I don't get why.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toolin Around

It's obvious the electic shocks kills far far less than driving over the speed limit does but for some reason people get all bent out of shape with doing even the minorist repair to a appliance...

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I'm pleased someone has actually read the statistics I wrote in the "other thread". I'm pleased it wasn't a complete waste of time!

I'm not sure why this thread has been started as a separate thread when it is a response to the "other" thread?

It all comes down to giving advice. Yes we all speed, yes we all understate our incomes, yes we all do our own wiring when nobody is looking. All three are illegal, all three cop penalties if you are caught. The only difference is that no-one on here is giving people practical advice that is encouraging people to lie about their income or break the speed limit.

I don't get why people don't get that...

I bought a valve guitar amp that I'm going to modify.

(Don't tell anybody o.k.) :wink:

Cool craigb
I might be able to not :wink: give you some help and advise on that. I build my own valve amps.:U

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Originally Posted by sundancewfs

Cool craigb
I might be able to not :wink: give you some help and advise on that. I build my own valve amps.:U

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Thanks, I'll keep your intention not to give me any advice in mind. :wink: :D