Rubbing back and polishing surfaces

Hi. I'm making some boxes as gifts and am now applying the finish. I am after a high-build, high-gloss finish. I am using ordinary Bunnings-bought poly (oil based Cabothane) due primarily to an absence of knowledge of better alternatives. Finishing is not my strong point.

Because the boxes are small, I am looking at the finish very closely. With each coat, the finish looks worse, due largely to dust and brush marks. I sand between coats. I have heard of people using tripoli/pumice/rottenstone etc to cut back and then polish the surface. This would give the effect I want. I experimented using 2000 grit paper and autopainters final finish polishing compound as was recommended in Neils book, but was unable to restore a high gloss. Is this because this technique cannot be applied to this type of poly ? or is it that it can but I just have the wrong products ?

Neil recommends one of his products, which I expect is good but not available locally and I dont get a lot of time to shop.

Arron

If you want to improve the gloss of a product from that which you purchase you must buy a suitable material.

Paint companies usually produce their products to suit the buyers they intend to supply. Its usually only industry which has the products which can be further improved by buffing to a higher gloss level such as the auto or furnature trade. the products they use normally can't be baught in a hardware store.

If you check out your product it will probably say that it is a hard wearing material which is scratch resistant. This is what most people will want, something which they can apply and will dry glossy and be hard wearing.

Most people don't want or have the means to further improve the gloss, thats why they buy a full gloss product. the paint company supplys them with a full gloss product which is meant to be applied that will dry fully glossy. Trying to improve on the finish will usually only result in a lowering of the gloss level from what can be obtained direct from the can.

To do this you must apply it well enough to allow it to flow out into a mirror finish. The gloss level is at its maximum when you achieve this. Rub it or buff it will only result in loss of gloss.

Paints which can be further inhanced by buffing to a higher sheen have to be made with ingredients in them to allow this to happen. They also may need particular types of compounds/[polishes/waxes to actually do this.

Sanding between coats is only necessary if the surface is not itself flat and smooth. If it is perfectly flat and imperfection free you can apply the finish over it. The sanding is usually done to get out any imperfections such as brush marks, dust, scratches etc. The final result is obtained by the finish being applied properly.

In your case you need to make sure the boxes are perfectly smooth and blemish free. You can do this by applying the initial coat and then rubbing it in preparation of the final coat. If you are brushing you need a good quality brush which will allow you to apply the finish without ending up with brush marks ( a good pure bristle brush) and the Cabothane must be thinned enough to allow the clear to flow out to produce a brush free surface.

As for the dust paint somehere where there is clean air with no possibility of dust landing in your finish. There are lots of ways dust can get into the work including off yourself, clothes, even dandruff so look around and see if where you are painting is the best place to do it. If its a drafty workshop maybe moving to a room in the house where the boxes can be worked on without the risk of comtamination may be a better option.

You can order all the gooder products online here.

Al :)

have a read of this, it should point you (and a lot of others) in the right direction...

If it's any help we're in Sydney at the Working With Wood Show all this weekend on Stand 72 pay us a visit. If not Carba-Tec in Sydney carries pretty much the full range of our products.

Many polyurethanes are a bit soft for refinishing and others often need to be left to harden for many days before polishing. I'm convinced a lot have changed their formula over the last 10 -20 or so years as I often encounter soft punky finishes on tabletops in restaurants, cafés, etc.

Personally, for small boxes I would be more inclined to use shellac as it is easier for a novice finisher to apply and fix also much nicer finish and in many instances as durable as poly and much easier to repair.

In my experience, most problems with applying a finish are created by the use of cheap rubbish brushes or the wrong brush, also poor preparation of the surface, wrong stain, etc. As a rule it isn't the finish itself.

Cheers - Neil :)

i use feastwatson floorseal now for all my finishing, it is amazing stuff, you can use any cheap brush and it will never get brush marks, it has a beautiful lusture, is extremely easy to apply, does'nt take too long to dry, is hard wearing, and does'nt have that plastic look to it at all, the more coats you put on the higher gloss you get, you won't get a super high gloss but glossy enough for most , and best of all you can recoat it anytime during it's life...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by la Huerta

i use feastwatson floorseal now for all my finishing, it is amazing stuff, you can use any cheap brush and it will never get brush marks, it has a beautiful lusture, is extremely easy to apply, does'nt take too long to dry, is hard wearing, and does'nt have that plastic look to it at all, the more coats you put on the higher gloss you get, you won't get a super high gloss but glossy enough for most , and best of all you can recoat it anytime during it's life...

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After reading favourable reports on the Floorseal I am experimenting with it. So far I've been wiping it on with a rag, letting it dry for 10 - 30 minutes then wiping it off. Have only put on 3 coats so far and it hasn't put on any sort of film.

What is your procedure?
It sounds like there is no need to rub out at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arch Stanton

After reading favourable reports on the Floorseal I am experimenting with it. So far I've been wiping it on with a rag, letting it dry for 10 - 30 minutes then wiping it off. Have only put on 3 coats so far and it hasn't put on any sort of film.

What is your procedure?
It sounds like there is no need to rub out at all.

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you just put it on with a brush same as any varnish or paint, you don't use a rag and you certainly don't wipe it off, just treat it like poly, what i do say for a table top is flow it on with about a 3in brush,(just a cheap one will do), and then tip it off (that's going back over the whole top with the tip of the brush to even it out further),, because it has oil in it i find a get a good couple of minutes to go over it if i have to , unlike poly which will just leave marks..


i really can't fault this product, and i go through a lot of it( and have tried just about everything out there), i can apply it in just about any weather, i gave a table a coat the other day when it was raining outside, now poly would have refused to dry at all in that sort of weather and probably gone flat, but it was'nt a problem with floorseal...

i also lightly scuff sand the surface between coats to remove and nibly bits, and wait atleast 24hrs between coats, longer in damp weather, although it apears to dry in just a few hrs it must be allowed to cure a good day between coats ... the more coats the more gloss you get.

Then a couple of weeks later when it's really cured, you can rub it out if you want, i just use some beeswax...but one of the u-beat compounds would probably work really well too...:2tsup:

Question to Neil about rubbish brushes. Couldn't agree with you more on this but what would be best brushes to buy and where to get them?

jerryc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by la Huerta

i use feastwatson floorseal now for all my finishing, it is amazing stuff, you can use any cheap brush and it will never get brush marks, it has a beautiful lusture, is extremely easy to apply, does'nt take too long to dry, is hard wearing, and does'nt have that plastic look to it at all, the more coats you put on the higher gloss you get, you won't get a super high gloss but glossy enough for most , and best of all you can recoat it anytime during it's life...

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Sounds like just the thing I've been looking for, Will give it a go on my next project.:2tsup:

Thanks for all the responses.
Perhaps I should have clarified that my reason for wanting to cut back and then repolish the surface is to get rid of all the dust nibs, bits of floating lint, brush marks and lap marks that are on the surface - not to give it a greater or lesser glossiness. I dont have a dust-free environment - I wouldnt think anyone does outside of a specialised spraypainting shop.

Reading the above, I'm thinking I should try the following:
- buy some U-beaut hard shellac
- apply a few coasts with a brush
- when it is fully cured rub back with 2000 grit
- then rub with a polishing compound.

does that sound right ?

I think I will also give Floorseal a go.

cheers
Arron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arron

- buy some U-beaut hard shellac
- apply a few coasts with a brush
- when it is fully cured rub back with 2000 grit
- then rub with a polishing compound.

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Just get the French polish, the hard as you can imagine is, well hard, and should be the final coat over French or White shellac.

Al :)

And put the french polish on by brush ????????

will it build up fairly quickly.

I bought some stuff at Bunnies once called Premixed French Polish, I brushed about 20 coats on and could scarcely see any difference.

Arron

I just recently finished a dining table that was 2M x 1.2M and just brushed the shellac on, the purists will be rocking backwards and forwards in the foetal position around about now. :o

I gave it 3 or 4 coats.

When the shellac was set, 1 day later because the weather was hot, I rubbed it down with steel wool and tradition wax, the finish is so-o-o-o-o-o smooth.

I have another table due to finished next weekend all going well, and the finish will be exactly the same.

Al :)

Shame about rusty tin. I wanted to have a look.

Arron

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arron

Shame about rusty tin. I wanted to have a look.

Arron

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Seems more people love and smut than rustytin.

Al :(

I am intrigued that more people/ anyone has not referred to the use of hot air as an aid in finishing.
I have a present preference for Tung oil, put on very lightly and then burnished to give a matt finish. A hot air gun seems to help before the final series of sandings.
Also, at an earlier stage, it can help get the bubbles out of a polyurethane finish, in my experience. Do others have a like percerpetion?

I think for a newbie to polishing it would be hard to go past some of Neils shellac followed by some EEE then some trad wax. Just need to brush on a few coats with a very light sand between each one. When dry use some EEE to cut back suface. Gloss it up with some trad wax and it will look like youve been doing it for years.

thanks Bucket, that is concise and just what I wanted. Which of Neils shellacs do you recommend ?

Arron

The ready mixed French Polish would be the easiest for you I think. If you are unsure of how you are going to go with your polishing then I would suggest practicing on a scrap first as it is so dissapointing to mess up your woodworking with a crap finish. I would also suggest you thin the polish a little as this will help make it much easier to get a fairly even coat. 3 or 4 coats should be plenty. Dont panic if it looks a little streaky or uneven after applying the polish. As long as you brushed a fairly even coat all over it will even out when cut back with the EEE. Once waxed it will look and feel amazing.
Dont be put off by thinking that using shellac is only for the experts. Once you get the hang of it, its the easiest polish to use. Especially on small items.
One more thing to remember when brushing it on is that it is not paint and will not behave like paint especially if it is warm. It will build if you keep going over an area unlike paint which will spread.
Good luck and hope you can post some pictures of your work.