snake oil and new house salesmen... a slight rant

Weve been lookin for the "new house" design we like and can change internally to fit our needs so Dingo Creek will be the home among the gumtrees that me loverly possumpoop so deserves and a homestead for the makins out in the shed...

So weve done a bit of the old "display homes shuffle" around the area :roll: ... we have a budget that puts us up in the higher bracket... no not the supa dupa mega palace budget but in the better than just good bracket... in other words no need to scrimp or compromise on it.

So weve visited some of the better names over here like Scott Park Dale Alcock Plunket et al... some through past experience we wouldnt touch with your money so defenantly not our money (like "content for living" known as discontent and "summit" also known as plummit) and we have no need to debate prices with the sales people.

We have specific needs that have to be met and weve found that most can meet them with their basic designs with a few alterations here and there so no real problems

What gets up my nose with these snake oil sales men is this (RANT #1)

1) when we mention our budget for arguements sake we say "we have a budget of $300,000 for the house no the site works are a different budget as are the finish costs (floorcoverings and light fittings) so we would like to see the floor plans from 250 - 300000 range" why the bloody hell do they persist in giving us floor plans that are priced either in the lower bracket 120 - 15000 range or conversely 400 - 500000 range?? One type will be clearly too far below budget and the other way out of budget!

2) when we say we have 2 acres with a view we need to take advantage of (and go on to describe it) why do they persist in showing us floor plans that have no design features that would or could take advantage of the views?

3) When we say we want a "federation" style home why do they persist in showing us the stinking revolting "mediterainan" style box homes or the so called "farmhouse" type designs?

4) Why do they bloody lie? Right at the very early stages?...

(RANT #2)

Okay we had this one company that had the design her highness liked a lot and with some playing around in cheif architect we found it wasnt just doable but was almost perfect and nicely just under budget... but the day after we saw the snake oil salesman he rings up and tells me a pack of friggin lies about the shire and the rivers and waters departments!

"Look Shane Ive spoken with the shire this morning and they they will need you to build 2 limestone retaining walls to build on the block"
"eh?"
"Yeah look sorry mate I was thinking that just one would do but they are saying you will need two on near the pad and the other down further near the creek"
"ah um err yeah okay"
"and Ive also been onto the rivers and waters mob mate as theyre taking care of your place they reckon"
"eh? yer what?"
"Yeah so theyre saying your gonna have to get rid of the orange bricks youve had dumped down the back and in the creek"
"mmm yeah?"
"Yeah but no worries mate that can be included in the site works leave it with me I'll give you a call back tomorrow"
"yeah?"

So with a few short finger presses Im talking to the shire building department 2 IC the head honcho being away on holidays... now Im on pretty good terms with this bloke and the head engineer (HE) up there

"Look mate Ive just had the strangest call from one of the building companies we have been talking to"
"mmm yeah?"
"yeah look mate hes saying you blokes have told him Im going to have to build not one but 2 limestone retaining walls when we build the new house"
"thats unlikely mate"
"well considering that the HE has told me in no uncertain tones am I to build a levee bank anywhere near the creek it seems wrong but I wanted to check so has anyone from ***** building company contacted you today?"
"no mate Im the only one in the office and I havent spoken to any building companies today"
""mmm what about the engineers dept?"
"damned if I know why they would be talking to anyone there either but I'll check hang on"

"Shane?"
"yeah"
"No mate Peters (HE) in there today and he reckons he hasnt spoken to anyone at all so Id get onto that bloke and find out who he spoke to and can you let me know what he says?"
"yeah mate"

So I ring old snake oil up again
"yeah mate its Shane up in Brunswick"
"oh right gidday Shane look ive just been talking with the Shire..."
"Hang on a tick mate just stop for a minute alright?"
"yes?"
"What time did you speak with the person at the shire mate?"
"About 9.45 this morning"
"9.45 this morning about 2 hours ago?"
"Yeah mate"
"look who was it you were speaking to at the shire?"
"Oh I cant remember off hand"
"Okay what section building or engineering?"
"I cant remember that off hand either"
"Your telling me you spoke to someone 2 hours ago at the shire but you cant remember who they were or what dept theyre with? look I'll hang on while you go check your notes or diary if you like"
"no mate look Im busy someones just come in let me ring you back"

So a few days down the track and no call back :roll:

But tell me why the bloody hell do these wankers think they have to lie? I mean I have quite a sum of money to spend on this house and Im researching the information on designs and other things and were in no rush to build as yet so surely it stands to reason that if they say something to me about the shire requirements BEFORE Ive signed anything that IM going to check... I mean surely???

So by process of the darwin award on a minor scale we have culled that idiot and the company hes with off the list... if they can lie at this very VERY early stage and an easily provable lie at that then I dont want to consider what lies and bullshyte will come if they build the house!

Most of these wakkers and their offsiders real estate agents simply look at you and judge your worth... and irrispective of what you say they simply dont believe you! Yet they bullshyte and crap on a mile a friggin minute

Were about a month or so from an actual decision as were still looking at options... Im a realist enough to know Im a lazy buggar that wouldnt build my own house just too many other things to do so going Jills method although Id love to just wouldnt happen :no: ... and going Barnseys method also wouldnt happen... too much work to many wakkers to deal with for my liking... I have very VERY little patience with sales people of any breed... so Im down to

1) get a builders plan and make the additions modifications we want and get them to build it... good point being is that we will remain in this house which will overlook the building of the new one so any and every problem will be sorted pretty damned fast

2) go back to the ONE kit home builder over east that actually sends their designs over here and have them make it and find a private builder here to put it together

Oh the other option? Jo reckons the way its going it may well be easier to simply buy one over in Australind and spend $20000 on this place to do it up a bit and flog it... not actually a bad idea IF we could find one within the refined substantially upward budget for that... initially a higher cost outlay but a nice little return when this one sells... of course then the FIL pipes up with "IF it sells it could just sit for a year you know" damned rational git! :doh: :U

The original idea of leaving for FNQ is looking better by the day!!... for me... I think however Id be dead within a week either from her highness or from one of the kids... however I do have one ally in this idea!! yep the youngest fella at 12 thinks IM GOD!! so he'd support me... trouble is hes only one boy against the wrath of 6 girls an older brother and his mum... ah well :C

Well thanks for allowing me this wonderful opportunity to let off steam :;

They have to tell lies so they can try to hide their incompetence

From what I've seen of people dealing with builders ... I'm not yet convinced it's easier than building the whole thing yourself!! :)

You start processes like this with too many choices. You should thank them for helping to trim your list.:wink:

Joe

They can all go to hell and die there or whichever comes first.:D

Shane all builders are crooks sorry to say, Ive seen it from the subbies side and I wouldnt trust them as far as I could spit.

Do it yourself, subbie it out.

Al :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

Shane all builders are crooks sorry to say, Ive seen it from the subbies side and I wouldnt trust them as far as I could spit.

Do it yourself, subbie it out.

Al :)

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Al, Is that all builders or mainly the project builders that are crooks?

Cheers,

Curious

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnc

Al, Is that all builders or mainly the project builders that are crooks?

Cheers,

Curious

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I have worked for all types of builder over 30 odd years, big small, they all seem only too happy to get the work done and then default on payment.

So yes all of them.

Ive given Quotes as to job cost, got the go ahead only to be told Im too dear, :o when the jobs done.

Al :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

I have worked for all types of builder over 30 odd years, big small, they all seem only too happy to get the work done and then default on payment.

So yes all of them.

Ive given Quotes as to job cost, got the go ahead only to be told Im too dear, :o when the jobs done.

Al :(

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That's it Al, I'm not gunna hire you :D

(I'm not building anyway) :p

I'm glad we bought a 50 y/o house, and I am renovating everything myself. I would get an ulcer dealing with muppets like that. It is also why I would never in my life ever buy a new car or one from a yard.

In all honesty I was strained enough just dealing with agents when buying our second hand house.

#1 I want a level block.

Why did the first dozen or so agents persist in showing blocks that were not within 3/100 fall?

Dingo,

Put what you have written here in writing to the managing director/CEO of the building company concerned. Explain why you will not be dealing with his company.

The only way these people will be sorted out is for their lying to be exposed and dealt with..

Not a bad idea Gra... although from past experience it wont achieve a sodding thing but still a nice wee letter cant hurt now can it

As to the issue of doing it myself... I admit it... Im a lazy buggar and I hate dealing with salepeople no matter which brand... then theres the subbying out I mean really how the hell do you tell whos a good reliable does good work everytime contractor? I did that with the electricals here took the advice of someone and got the buggars in after the flood... and the dopey mongrels left the bare bloody wires exposed and the power on... next to a wet (<1in mud and water) floor! :o

So not only cant we trust the bloody builders but to do it ourselves we cant trust the flamin subbies! :~

So Im starting to think maybe taking stock and raising the budget upwards to buy existing is the go... but then Id have to deal with lying shytes called real estate agents... you know the ones that up the value of a property well beyond its actual value and then tell a pack of lies about the property... ergo this place "no theres never been any issues with the creek" one month after we move in hello!! flooded the house!!... and it wasnt the first time either :~

I think Im gonna sit back and let Jo do the deed this time... she has more patience for these idiots than I do I tend to get wild and start telling them what I think... ahem not a good look I guess but brother why they think they should lie is beyond me... I mean be honest straightforward and say it as it is!!... its appreciated much more I can tell you

And whats this with not dealing with car yards? mmm?? At least with a yard you get a warrentee! private you pays yer money drive down the road and if your lucky you get home... bloody private sellers! :~ At least with a yard if something F***s up before you go anywhere and even if you do take it straight back and say "FIX THE DAMNED THING!" 9 times out of 10 they will... private sellers just tell you to "go fly a duck" :roll:

I think Im revising my next career move... I was thinking of real estate then car salesman... I think Im just gonna become a snake oil dispenser trainer :U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

but then Id have to deal with lying shytes called real estate agents... you know the ones that up the value of a property well beyond its actual value and then tell a pack of lies about the property... ergo this place "no theres never been any issues with the creek" one month after we move in hello!! flooded the house!!... and it wasnt the first time either :~

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WD, I feel your pain. As one of those lying shytes myself, I can see where you could be put off. But I'm interested in understanding how agents could "up the value" or deny issues with the creek.

Really, I'm genuinely interested because home sales here in the US are so competitive and so closely regulated and so complicated that misrepresentation, although it does happen, is usually caught out and the agent punished plus damages awarded. Are the real estate laws in OZ that loose? Is there any regulation at all? Maybe you are not the one who knows the answer, but someone on the forums does.

[NB: I tried to research it myself but, like most government thingos, you can't find anything relevant unless you know the secret handshake and which rock to look under.:D ]

At any rate, if you bought an existing over here you would be foolish NOT to retain an agent, as they have seriously legal obligations to protect your interests.

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Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke

At any rate, if you bought an existing over here you would be foolish NOT to retain an agent, as they have seriously legal obligations to protect your interests.

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HB, are you talking about a buyers' agent, ie an agent engaged by the buyer to act on his/her behalf?

That happens very rarely here, mostly when buying at auction.

As far as I can see, the same guy/gal that acts as buyers' agent is/was a sellers' agent as well at different times, so perhaps has the same "morals" that WD is objecting to.

My dealings with real estate agents have not left me with a very good impression. Let's just say that the comparison to used car salesmen is an apt one, and perhaps a little unkind to used car salesmen, they seem far more regulated than real estate agents:o

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

HB, are you talking about a buyers' agent, ie an agent engaged by the buyer to act on his/her behalf?

That happens very rarely here, mostly when buying at auction.

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Big Shed,

Yes, I am talking about a Buyer's Agent. The dual agency you spoke of used to be the norm here, but in recent years practices have changed radically. For example, it is no longer possible to represent both sides in a transaction unless both parties waive their right to representation in writing. In addition, an explanation of Agency (who represents whom) must be given at the first meeting between the agent and buyer or seller before any further discussions can take place. Enforcement is strict. Our state employs Secret Shoppers who contact agents simply to check on whether or not they are in compliance.

In addition, the condition of the home is subject to full disclosure. If the seller/owner fails to disclose problems or repairs, the buyer can cancel the contract or obtain damages. If the agent knows of it and fails to disclose the problem, he/she can lose their license and be subject to damages. In WD's case, the creek flooding would have been subject to mandatory disclosure.

I'm not saying abuses don't occur, I know they do. But they are far less common than heretofore and the protections are quite comprehensive. I have personally walked away from a number of transactions that didn't pass the smell test.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

But tell me why the bloody hell do these wankers think they have to lie? I mean I have quite a sum of money to spend on this house and Im researching the information on designs and other things and were in no rush to build as yet so surely it stands to reason that if they say something to me about the shire requirements BEFORE Ive signed anything that IM going to check... I mean surely???

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I think they deal with that many people with no idea they actually believe everyone is like that and consequently think they can rip you off. I have a close friend who did a unit development, he got his contract from the project builder, hidden in it was $3500 for new sewerage cut in. He rang the water authority, they told him "nah mate there is already a t junction there, they just need to connect in and notify us" - one $15 pipe joiner charged out at $3500!! Did the project builder learn their lesson, no way about three months later he gets a call saying, "mate we have been held up by brick supply, this is out of our control so we are invoking our right to increase the price based on time constrains beyond our control, we will send you out an amended contract to sign. Stupid project builders did not realise that the client is actually a comercial representative for the said brick supplier who was apparently holding them up. A quick call to one of his coworkers tells him there is no hold up, the builders put a hold on delivery because they were not ready for the bricks. So he screws the project builder to the wall and has them build a heap of extra retaining walls for him at no cost - they could see their current brick price going up real quickly as the brick supplier was not happy that they had been used as a .

Moral of the story, believe very little any project builder says and question everything, make them earn their dollars. When it comes to contractors, I go by a simple rule, don't employ anyone who you would not invite over for a BBQ and it not happy to have you work with them. If they won't let me help them I put them in the dodgy category. I can't see how our supplier is making any money out of us because this is what I have done, to the point that they offered me a job as a site supervisor:rolleyes: My contractors, all fantastic and we will be having a big BBQ at the end:)

In about 40-odd years of construction consulting and/or sub work, I've known two (yes, 2) contractors/superintendents who were true gentlemen. One upscale private renos; the other public works. I don't think any of the others were crooks, mostly just in over their heads.

One of my chums is quadriplegic. When he and his wife were looking at existing housing, they specified need for wheelchair access. Damned if the agents didn't insist on showing them two-story houses. They wound up having a house custom built from standard (+/-) plans in a new development. Even then, the spa had to be replaced with a drive-in shower, and the main closet had to be rebuilt wider and with a wider door. The first thing these subdivision builders do, it seems, is to leave the plans in the truck. Luckily, they invited me along for a look-see from time to time during the experiment.

Living next door to the new project could give an edge, but you'll need to watch them like a hawk.

Joe

I'm going to sound a bit sexist here, but I gave up dealing with salemen a long time ago, when spending larger sums of money. These days I only deal with women. I get fantastic service most of the time, and they're frank, straight down the line and tend not to be full of ?????. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of good salesmen around - I just won't be dealing with them, thanks to the bad experiences I've had...

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

When it comes to contractors, . If they won't let me help them I put them in the dodgy category.

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Fair go.:((

I have had a lot of people ask me to do a job for them in the past and want to help out.
I always say no!

I find that most people in this category have no idea what is what or what they are doing and end up costing ME money, the same money that they think they are saving by "helping" out.

Al :no:

Try being a panel beater and seeing how much trust you get? Sheesh!

I can hand build a classic prototype car from almost nothing, or build a stretch limousine. But at an hourly rate, it becomes a very very expensive exercise.

[QUOTE=Burnsy;512258]they had been used as a . /QUOTE]

I am not generally a spelling nazi but on this this occassion I will make an exception, Google the following:
1. (wipe screen so SWMBO doesn't see it)
2. Pawn ( Chess related, sacrificial as well as strategic piece)