Attaching wood framing to solid brickwork

Having recently moved into a solid brick house I have come apon several issues re the brickwork. Namely, what is the best method to attach timber framework to a brick wall.

I watched some chippies once attache some cabinets in about ten minutes to a brick wall and wonder if somebody knows what method they probably used.
Firstly a hole was drilled through the wood and right into the brick whilst the wood was held against the wall, then a screw with plastic plug already attached was tapped in with a hammer and finally screwed home with a drill.
This method seemed very fast and there was no pre-drilling or lining up of holes.

Does anybody know this method and can they clarify the processes used.

MArtin,

I have used Ramset Nylon Anchors Attachment 42744before in a situation similar to yours with no problems. The only thing is that the nylon anchors are not designed for high load scenarios so if that will be the case for you it might be best to look at something more substantial like a dynabolt (which you can get with countersunk heads if you need flush finish.

There are so many anchors on the market I can't keep up with them. You are probably best identifying the names of the major suppliers like ramset, coventry fastners etc and looking at their web sites or speaking to reps.

Thats great. That web site explains a lot, including why I hated using Dynabolts!!

thanks guys

Don't bother going to Coventry fasteners site either - even more useless some of these big firms really need to get up to speed as far as their web presence goes.
BTW dyna bolts do suck don't they. I calculate 1 in 4 fail and to be truthful I have yet to come across any masonary anchor that I trust besides chemical anchors.
As far as all the preloaded ones that you refer to go I havent had a good run with the ones I've used but I don't use them all that often and there are lots out there that I haven't tried.
Good Luck

The problem with using things like dynabolts on brickwork is that you often hit the cavity in the brick and then if the fixed part of the fastener is deeper than the thickness of the brick at that point, of course they will fail.

I reckon the best type to use is one that expands along it's length, rather then one that pulls in and expands at the end (like a dynabolt).

What's wrong with rawlplugs or spaghetti and screws?

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Originally Posted by silentC

What's wrong with rawlplugs or spaghetti and screws?

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Sometimes its too hard to line up your hole again after you have moved your board or carcass to place the plug in.

In the past I have done it thusly: drill the hole right through whatever I'm fixing, tap in the plug, cut it flush, put in the screw, tap the screw so that the plug is seated below the surface, tighten the screw. This only works if the screwhead is substantially bigger than the plug and no good for counter sunk heads. Also need to make sure it's firmly back against the wall because once the screw goes in, it wont pull in tight, unless you have a slightly larger hole in the cupboard or whatever.

This is why I hate working with double brick...

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Originally Posted by silentC

This is why I hate working with double brick...

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Not to mention extruded brick. Solid concrete is not much better.

What I do is buy the stainless threaded studs that are used with the chemical anchors - easier than cutting threaded rod. and use a no-name brand of ramset type poly or epoxy in the hole.

If you make sure that you purge enough glue when starting your cartridge and you have blown out the dust in the hole sufficiently and twist your rod around in the glue you get 100% success rate.

This still isn't helping Martin though.:(

also be careful of load limits ....if your going to hang something heavy, use heavy fixings ...and in preferance I go through the brick rather than the brick coarse, less chance of it "pulling out"...in some applications where "looks" dont matter (garage, shed)....and if its heavy stuff ...I go right through the brick and use flat bar on the other side for support ....applications like a rack for timber or steel .....where the load limit changes all the time....and familiarise yourself with fixings, which ones do the best job ...have a sticky beak here .. http://www.ramset.com.au/
to get a general idea

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Originally Posted by silentC

In the past I have done it thusly: drill the hole right through whatever I'm fixing, tap in the plug, cut it flush, put in the screw, tap the screw so that the plug is seated below the surface, tighten the screw. This only works if the screwhead is substantially bigger than the plug and no good for counter sunk heads. Also need to make sure it's firmly back against the wall because once the screw goes in, it wont pull in tight, unless you have a slightly larger hole in the cupboard or whatever.

This is why I hate working with double brick...

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Good thought...I could do the above but add a dimple (counter sunk) washer to allow for the plug sized hole. Can I use a mortar drill bit to drill through the wood or do they make bits that do wood and brick. Or do I have to pre drill the wood?
This is getting tedious, I intend to fit a pre-fab (IKEA) kitchen soon onto double brick. Thats why I'm trying to solve this little issue first.

(Thinks, blimey, should have bought non-brick!) :rolleyes:

In most cases you can use your masonary bit through wood plus a bit of force. Try to put your drill holes where the shelves go to hide them.

When I used to install kitchens, I would pre-drill all the holes in the back of the cabinets with a normal 5mm drillbit, locate cabinet then drill thru 5mm hole with masonry bit, hammer precut 40mm spaghetti in and start screw then couple of hits to punch spaghetti thru cabinet and then drive 50mm countersink screw home

Ps Spoke to my brother who I used to work with and is a professional Installer, that they still do it this way as it is the most reliable method of fixing

I think you'll find a masonry bit will go through chipboard OK but it's probably not a bad idea to pre-drill your cupboard. Less messing about when you get it up there.

My method is the poor man's approach - it's the way they used to do it in the olden days before we had all these fancy toggles and what not. If you want something a bit more flash, then follow the advice above and pick out an anchor that will do what you want.

I pulled a kitchen out of a flat once and the wall cupboards had been hung by drilling 1/2" holes in the wall and plugging with wooden dowels, then screwing/nailing into that. The skirting boards were held on by nailing to wedges of timber belted into the perps between bricks. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Martin Williams

(Thinks, blimey, should have bought non-brick!) :rolleyes:

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I think you would find it harder locating the studs than knowing it didn't matter where you drilled the hole you were going hit a brick and any way you would still need to pre-drill your cupboard with a stud wall.

The other thing with brick you can put as many fixings you want whereas with the stud wall you are limited to one fixing every per stud.

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you are limited to one fixing every per stud

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Yeah and don't you hate it when a 600mm cupboard just misses a stud on one side...

There's lot to be said for hanging cleats. I don't think they make pre-fab kitchens that way though...

Come to think of it IKEA does use some sort of mounting system.


https://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=40617

Yep that's a jazzed-up version of hanging cleat. They're good for longer runs on stud walls with various smaller cabinet sizes because you can fix into every stud and it doesn't matter if a smaller cabinet only hits one stud (or none). Probably not worth the effort for a single cabinet, but then again...

Would you use hanging cleats for your base cabinets or just wall units?

Would they save time if attaching straight to brick? I've never seen them used before.

Only for the wall cabinets. The weight of the base cabinet is on the base, so you only need to screw to the wall to keep them in place.

The idea is that you construct the cabinet with a rear top rail that has a slight chamfer on the bottom (about 8-10 degrees), sloping up inwards. The cleat has a matching chamfer on the top sloping the other way. This locks them together when you hang the cabinet. You have a straight batten fixed to the wall near the bottom of the cabinet same thickness as the cleat and you screw the bottom of the cabinet to that. The side panels (or gables as some people call them) cover the gap between the wall and the back of the cabinet. You lose about 20mm or so in depth.

I'd imagine that if you were doing a long run, fixing a cleat would be quicker because you just cut it to the length of the run and plumb it up, then the cabinets just hang off it.

I don't expect many kitchen suppliers would be able to supply them like this though.

Thanks Silent, you know what a pain it is leveling the base cabinets, I thought that if you set your hanging cleat dead level, hang your base carcasses then just adjust the legs to hit the floor.

Oh well back to lying on the floor with a spirit level as a companion.

Being a bit of a cheap skate, I use a full length separate base which you level up and then sit the cabinets on top. Those legs are good if you want to use the clip on kickers but are a bit of a hassle to level unless you're doing it all the time and have a method.

Are you talking about a sheet of malamine that you leveled up first? What good thinking.. is it very noticable when you open the doors or did you recess it a bit ( used it as a top support for the kick board maybe).

I wish I'd thought of that.:doh:

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Originally Posted by Martin Williams

Good thought...I could do the above but add a dimple (counter sunk) washer to allow for the plug sized hole. Can I use a mortar drill bit to drill through the wood or do they make bits that do wood and brick. Or do I have to pre drill the wood?
This is getting tedious, I intend to fit a pre-fab (IKEA) kitchen soon onto double brick. Thats why I'm trying to solve this little issue first.

(Thinks, blimey, should have bought non-brick!) :rolleyes:

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Hi all

OK now we know what you are doing - I install IKEA kitchens all the time.

1st forget that it is double brick, you only have to deal with one lot of bricks.
2nd I use green plugs and screws approx. 50mm and a 6.5mm masonry bit - you will find IKEA have excellant brackets etc for hang, so that accuracy is not that important.

For example the wall cabinets have a bracket that slides onto the screws, you tighten and put on the cover. steps - make cabinet, line up on wall level (I have been using milk crates with off cuts to get them at the right height 600 - 650 above the bench) mark hole location via the bracket, take down drill knock in plug - sorry brain freeze - can't remember if you put in screw b4 or after placing the cabinet back up - anyway slide cabinet into position, tighten and put cover.:2tsup:

There are no holes to drill in the IKEA Cabinets they're all set up.
You only need to drill holes in the walls. tho you do need a 5mm bit to extend the shelving holes right thru to attach cabinets together. I love IKEA. Sooooo easy. they even supply the screws for this. excellant.

I am 5ft nothing and hang them on my own. IKEA are really easy.:2tsup:

celeste

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Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

Are you talking about a sheet of malamine that you leveled up first? What good thinking.. is it very noticable when you open the doors or did you recess it a bit ( used it as a top support for the kick board maybe).

I wish I'd thought of that.:doh:

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No, you just make the cabinets as usual but instead of fitting the adjustable legs, you make up a separate base which consists of a frame same footprint as the run of cabinets with the front edge inset by 100m from the front face of the cabinet. You make this up with MDF, chipboard or ply or whatever and it's the same height as you want your kickers to be (eg. 100mm). Then you put it in position on the floor and level it up, fix it to the wall and scribe (if necessary) and fit the kicker. Then you place your cabinets on top of it and screw them down to the base and back to the wall.

It gives you a level platform to work on and I reckon it's easier than winding those bloody feet up and down on individual cabinets until they're all level. But then like I say if you're doing it all the time it's probably easy. I suppose they use them for a reason.

The separate base is cheaper too because you can use up offcuts of the cabinet material and you don't need any special hardware.

People like the removable kickers because they can clean under them. Personally, if the kicker is scribed to the floor I can't see the need.

BT,
my method for fitting base cabinets, which I've arrived at after fitting them for quite a few years is a hybrid. I got myself a Stanley laser level which i set up top shoot a horizontal line on the wall the height of my kicker (usually 150mm, but it can vary +/- depending on requirements). I rip 15mm exterior ply into 150mm strips. I can get this in 3M long sheets which is handy for this. I use exterior ply because I don't ever want to get a waranty call back because someone has flooded their kitchen and the kickers are disintegrating. This ledge is fixed with appropriate fixings (screws, nails, nylon anchors, depending on wall)

I use a plastic leg assembly from Lincoln Sentry which has the leg folded into the base. I fit these in the workshop. I place the 1st base cabinet (usually an insside corner) on the ply ledge. Bend down whilst holding the cabinet against the wall and snap the feet down into position. I then use a short level to level the box front to back. Repeat for next box. I usually predrill the boxes in the workshop for screws through the sides to fix into adjacent boxes. I always fix through the inside of drawer carcasses as theses screws won't show at all. Any other screws I'll use white painted wafer heads as these look pretty neat.

I reckon this is the fastest way to fit them, and with the leg assemblies being about a dollar a pop it's cost effective.

Mick

Must get myself one of those laser levels. I suppose you could ping a chalk line using the water level and measure down to the kicker. Worth thinking about anyway...

Mick, that is by far the easiest way I've heard of doing it. I'm not familiar with the fold down legs but I get the picture.
The only drayback that I can see is fitting the kick boards - I take it that you use those plastic snap ons, which I find a bit dodgy.

I ended up using sikaflex to glue beading top and bottom for my kickers - a bit of a pain but I know that kids or brooms aren't going to dislodge them.

BT,
the plastic clips on the "Star" brand legs (the fold down ones I use) are quite positive in their engagement. I always seal the kicker to the floor with clear silicone to prevent water being drawn up into the board and swelling it up. I doubt very much it could be dislodged with a broom or mop. I find the kicker hard to unclip even before it's been sealed to the floor.

Mick

Ankascrews, try em you'll love em they're absolutely brilliant. They are like using a self tapping screw into metal, but into concrete, brick etc http://www.ramset.com.au/public/Arti...lID=3&menuNo=4

I've used em to bolt down my steel framed house to the slab. The structural engineered plans said to use wait for it... 50mm x 10mm dynabolts, I thought that was a joke along with the problem of exploding the concrete as they would only be 30mm from the edge of the slab. So I sussed out what else was available and found / used these Ankascrews 75mm x 12mm. I was able to tighten them up till I was blue in the face with no slab damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentC

No, you just make the cabinets as usual but instead of fitting the adjustable legs, you make up a separate base which consists of a frame same footprint as the run of cabinets with the front edge inset by 100m from the front face of the cabinet. You make this up with MDF, chipboard or ply or whatever and it's the same height as you want your kickers to be (eg. 100mm). Then you put it in position on the floor and level it up, fix it to the wall and scribe (if necessary) and fit the kicker. Then you place your cabinets on top of it and screw them down to the base and back to the wall.

It gives you a level platform to work on and I reckon it's easier than winding those bloody feet up and down on individual cabinets until they're all level. But then like I say if you're doing it all the time it's probably easy. I suppose they use them for a reason.

The separate base is cheaper too because you can use up offcuts of the cabinet material and you don't need any special hardware.

People like the removable kickers because they can clean under them. Personally, if the kicker is scribed to the floor I can't see the need.

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Hi all

I agree, the 1st couple I used the adjustable legs - yuk
Now I make up a frame of 100mm pine, put that on the floor and level it up, then put on the kick boards (so much easier to do at this stage as you can scribe them on the top using the pine as a guide) I glue them on with liquid nails :roll: a tradies best friend besides gap filler (which I run along the bottom of the kick boards). The frame/kickplates are set back at about 50mm from the front of the carcus and I just pop in few screws (with those little white plastic covers) from inside the cabinets.

This is the way my late hubby showed me how to do it - and he was a craftsman not tradie.

white painted wafer heads - where can I get these? saves fussing with those little plastic caps.

celeste

Celeste,
I buy them from my local cabinetmaker's supplier. Lincoln Sentry, who are national should be able to get them or perhaps even stock them. My local LS never stock anything I need and I have to fax an order 10 days prior plus phone them to tell them I've faxed.:~ I do this because I'm not a gambling man, need less to say I only buy a few things off them which I can't buy from my other supplier.

Mick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

BT,
my method for fitting base cabinets, which I've arrived at after fitting them for quite a few years is a hybrid. I got myself a Stanley laser level which i set up top shoot a horizontal line on the wall the height of my kicker (usually 150mm, but it can vary +/- depending on requirements). I rip 15mm exterior ply into 150mm strips. I can get this in 3M long sheets which is handy for this. I use exterior ply because I don't ever want to get a waranty call back because someone has flooded their kitchen and the kickers are disintegrating. This ledge is fixed with appropriate fixings (screws, nails, nylon anchors, depending on wall)

I use a plastic leg assembly from Lincoln Sentry which has the leg folded into the base. I fit these in the workshop. I place the 1st base cabinet (usually an insside corner) on the ply ledge. Bend down whilst holding the cabinet against the wall and snap the feet down into position. I then use a short level to level the box front to back. Repeat for next box. I usually predrill the boxes in the workshop for screws through the sides to fix into adjacent boxes. I always fix through the inside of drawer carcasses as theses screws won't show at all. Any other screws I'll use white painted wafer heads as these look pretty neat.

I reckon this is the fastest way to fit them, and with the leg assemblies being about a dollar a pop it's cost effective.

Mick

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http://www.lincolnsentry.com.au/Product.aspx?id=576

Hey Mick
Above sounds spot on, have found the feet too (address above for others).
Am I right in thinking the back ledge could be any material ie structural pine or similar. As its fixed to the wall at the back (and leveled at the Kicker height required) and therefore will be never seen?

Not specifically for installing cabinets, but these are awesome for fixing into extruded bricks.http://www.hilti.com.au/holau/module....jsp?OID=-9253

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Originally Posted by Kaiser Soze

http://www.lincolnsentry.com.au/Product.aspx?id=576

Hey Mick
Above sounds spot on, have found the feet too (address above for others).
Am I right in thinking the back ledge could be any material ie structural pine or similar. As its fixed to the wall at the back (and leveled at the Kicker height required) and therefore will be never seen?

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You could use pretty much anything, it's just that strips of ply to the right height are more convenient as they will require very little packing. If it looks like the floor might be really out of whack I'll rip it maybe 5 - 10mm less as it's quicker to pack than to plane. I use 4mm white ply for some of my cabinet backs and all the off cuts get ripped and docked into packing pieces, say 50 x 30. I also collect any outdated laminate colour sample cards as packers.

Mick