You be the judge

My in-laws bought this expensive Kleenmaid induction cook top and oven for their new house last year. They have been great for a year but the cook top stoped working last week.

They called Kleenmaid and the bloke came. He had a look and they were told that the cook top and oven weren’t installed correctly. Therefore it will not be under guarantee and it will cost $500-$600 to fix.:mad: :mad: :mad:

So what is the problem? The problem was the cook top is on top of the stove which is wrong. They need to be at lease 10cm apart for good ventilation. There should be a piece of MDF in the middle to separate the incoming cold air and exhaust hot air. See it is all in the instructions.:mad: He wouldn’t fix the cook top until the correction is made. He then said 90% of their customers have the same problem.:mad:

Fantastic, now the in-laws were so worry and they need to find another electrician. It is all $$$$$$.

I was angry:mad: , very angry.:mad: :mad: :mad: I decided to fix it for them. Under the stove, there is a drawer (about 12cm high). I took the drawer out, lower the stove and now I have 12cm gap between the cook top and the stove. I drilled 3 big holes on each side and glued a piece of mdf in the middle. Use the drawer front to cover the space between the cook top and stove. Now they are now installed correctly.:cool: Soon after then the cook top started to work again.:eek: Great we don’t have to call the bastard anymore.:mad:

So why was I so angry? I feel that Kleenmaid is not doing the right thing. Well this is a piece of very expensive equipment. It requires very specific installation. 90% of their customers have problem installing it. So wouldn't it make sense if they have a list of recommended electricians who knows exactly what to do? Or at least they should warn their customers up front? But no, you go home and you read the instructions. Since when would an electrician spend 30 minutes to read the instructions before they do a job? The installation is so specific and it just can’t be done with a screwdriver and a drill. I know because I spent 4 hours on it.

How many people will have their son-in-law living next door who has tools to fix things? It is not right is it?

What do you think?

You're a great son-in-law, I reckon they're lucky to have you around.

Does seem like Kleenmaid need to address this issue, as at the least they will have lots of unhappy customers. Not good for business, one would think.

Good on ya for fixing it up, and taking 4 hours of shed time to do it.

Tex

You'd think it would be costing them in call outs, warranty, enquiries etc. too!

Wongo, definitely not right, not one little bit.
I, too, would be livid if I had to deal with a situation like this.

Wendy

Good work Wongo.
Kick some backside over this one, at the least they should investigate if they need to redesign the equipment so that the gap allowance is part of the design of the cook top.

Good save, though!

Basically Wongo, nobody involved in the process gives a shyte. Not Kleenmaid, not the retailer, not the electrician and least of all the guy who came out to fix it. The only people who do are you and your in-laws (oh, and all the other Kleenmaid customers who had the same problem). Until someone makes them give a shyte, nothing will change.

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Originally Posted by silentC

Basically Wongo, nobody involved in the process gives a shyte. Not Kleenmaid, not the retailer, not the electrician and least of all the guy who came out to fix it. The only people who do are you and your in-laws (oh, and all the other Kleenmaid customers who had the same problem). Until someone makes them give a shyte, nothing will change.

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I asked them to call Kleenmaid to address the issue too. But you know my in-laws they are too kind and didn’t want to make a big fuss.

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Originally Posted by OBBob

You'd think it would be costing them in call outs, warranty, enquiries etc. too!

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No remember, 9 out of 10 will automatically lose the 3 years warranty. For $600 a pop it would certainly keep their technicians going.
:mad:

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Originally Posted by silentC

nobody involved in the process gives a shyte. Not Kleenmaid, not the retailer, not the electrician and least of all the guy who came out to fix it.

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The annoying thing was apart from the electrician, the retail and the technician all belong to Kleenmaid. So they cannot blame each others.

Maybe Kleenmaid will blame the electrician and my in-laws.:mad:

If the sparky didn't follow the directions, then he is to blame.

Technically speaking yes but you just can’t expect a sparky to come to your house and study the instructions for an hour. Most of them can’t read anyway. :D (No it is ONLY a joke.)

The task is actually quite complicated. It involves a bit woodwork too. I just don’t think an electrician can do it on site.

If it was me, I would warn my customers to read the instructions very carefully. I mean how hard is it?

I bet somewhere in the instructions or on the packaging it says "this appliance must be installed by a licensed electrical tradesperson" and I also bet somewhere in the warranty it says "warranty void if not installed according to instructions". In a perfect world, the sparky would say to you "installing this unit is beyond my expertise, you need a cabinet maker to make the correct allowances for the units in the cabinet and then I can connect it for you".

When we had our last kitchen made, the cabinet maker had all of the appliances delivered to his workshop and he put it all together there to make sure it fit, then dismantled it and installed at our place. All the sparky had to do was lift the appliances into the holes and connect them up.

I wouldn't trust a sparky to do any woodwork anymore than he would trust me to wire his house. Just having a license to do electrical work doesn't make them proficient with a hammer and chisel. I was appalled at some of the things my sparky wanted to do, and he has been in the trade for 40 years and is a German to boot!

And don't even get me started on plumbers...

Should have bought a Smeg Wongo. We had a problem with our cooktop and they have a local agent that came out and said they would replace it.

A couple of days later I get a call saying that the model we have has been discontinued....oh no thinks I they're trying to get out of it. So what does that mean asks I. It means we'll give you the new model as a replacement says the guy, happy days:D :D

Also had a similarly good expereince with F&P technician on our double oven when we were in Sydney.

HH.

I know silent. They are all bastards aren't they?:mad: The kitchen guy, the tiler and the electrician. Have a look at their kitchen. 18 months after they moved it, one panel in the kitchen is still missing.:mad:

Now go back to my in-laws’ story. What would happen if I didn’t fix it for them? 2 retirees have spent thousands on the cook top. The cook top broke. The technician won’t fix it. The electrician can't do it. So what do they do? It is just terrible.

I have found writing a letter to the managing director of a company (find out their name from their website) can often produce results. He may be interested to know that 90% of customers are having trouble installing the company's product.

Cheers

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So what do they do?

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They would contact the department of fair trading and copy the correspondence to the electrician and to Kleenmaid, just to let them know it was being looked into.

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Originally Posted by Wongo

Technically speaking yes but you just can’t expect a sparky to come to your house and study the instructions for an hour.

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Why not? Every tradesman has a duty to understand what he is dealing with, yet almost none do.

I reckon 90% of the issues I deal with are a result of tradesman who "know what to do".

Recently, I had a painter using a product which was unfamiliar to him, I had read the instructions and told him the products limitations, he knew better. Result: scrap the whole thing and start again.

Kleenmaid certainly should highlight the installation, but a sparkie should be aware that induction appliances need special installation
Where was the cabinet maker in all this? Usually they are the best at "knowing it all". I make a habit of reading the instructions, and checking the first delivery of cabinets on any project.

Funny thing is they think I'm a prickle for sending them back!

Even common everyday stuff, like recommended heights for mounting range hoods, inadequate ventilation round ovens in carcasses etc, is built incorrectly day after day.

Perhaps it's time tradesmen got their act together!

Cheers,

P:cool:

I must say they did have a few problems with the kitchen.

The kitchen guy disappeared
No one was able to install the Kleenmaid range hood. (I stepped in of course and it was a bloody big job)
A missing panel
The tiler promised but didn’t show up because the kitchen wall was only a small job. (I stepped in again)
And the cook top

My mother-in-law always say "What are we going to do without you wongo?". I think I should take some photos tonight to show you what I am talking about.

I was joking with my father-in-law the other day. I said all tradesmen are bastards.:mad: :D Not being too harsh am I?

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Funny thing is they think I'm a prickle for sending them back!

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The rest of us think you're a prickle for all the other reasons.

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I said all tradesmen are bastards.:mad: :D Not being too harsh am I?

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Those of us who have met Al don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Wongo

How many people will have their son-in-law living next door who has tools to fix things? It is not right is it?

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Definitely not right, there should be at least 2000k between mother-in-law and their sons-in law, like mine.:p


Peter.

Hi Scott!

Don't think problems, think opportunities!

Now that you've figured out how to install Kleenmaid appliances, you have a lucrative sideline enterprise beckoning. I'm not sure if Domi will help here, but methinks you'll find a way :D

PS Good on you for helping the in-laws :)

Hi Wongo

That's as close to a rant as I've seen from you - your accent started to come out!

I'm with SilentC, the electrician accepted the responsibility of the installation, as far as I am concerned he is therefore responsible for the voided warantee.

I like the thought of writing to the GM and informing him that his customer support indicated that 90% of his customers had this problem... or the department of fair trading. When I lived in Aussie I got advice from a lawyer who worked for some government funded consumer rights or fair trading group - awesome advice, got things sorted out very smartly.

And what's wrong with in-laws, Sturdee? I actually quite like in-laws, in fact I like my wife's in-laws more than I like my own! http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ons/icon10.gif

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Originally Posted by channa

And what's wrong with in-laws, Sturdee? I actually quite like in-laws, in fact I like my wife's in-laws more than I like my own! http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ons/icon10.gif

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Unfortunately my wife's in-laws have passed away but they were lovely people.:D :D :D

Nothing wrong with my MIL as long as she is at the other end of a 2000 k telephone cable and her visits at Christmas are only 2/3 weeks at a time. And my wife agrees with that sentiment.:D


Peter.

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Originally Posted by Wongo

I said all tradesmen are bastards.:mad: :D Not being too harsh am I?

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:eek: Wongo, go and wash your mouth out. :eek:

Al :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :(

Sorry Al but it is true.

Picture 1 is the range hood that the builder said the kitchen guy should install, the kitchen guys said the electrician should install and the electrician said the kitchen guy should install.

Picture 2 the tile that the tiler said “Yeah yeah no worries just call me when you are ready” but never returned my inlaws’ calls.

Picture 3 the missing panel that the kitchen guy promised to bring in 18 months ago. Never pay them until the job is done.

Picture 4 the correct way to install an induction cooktop

Actually, as midge points out, it's actually the cabinetmaker's fault. The sparky can only fit it in the space provided by the cabinetmaker.

Midge,
besides the bloke that Darren used, I must be the only cabinetmaker who asks for all the appliances before commencing construction and reads the instructions to get all the ventilation etc right.:rolleyes:

Wongo,
isn't there a government body that regulates the building industry in NSW? Either the builder or cabinetmaker should be required to rectify the faults/missing bits and wear the cost of any repairs to the oven and cooktop during the now defunct warranty period.

Mick

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Originally Posted by channa

I actually quite like in-laws, in fact I like my wife's in-laws more than I like my own! http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ons/icon10.gif

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Funny bugger! Good call :D

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Actually, as midge points out, it's actually the cabinetmaker's fault. The sparky can only fit it in the space provided by the cabinetmaker.

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quite right its the cabbies fault ,any reputable kitchen manufacturer asks for which appliances are going to be installed and READS The tech sheet and makes The cabinets to suit ,in this case the range hood cabinet is made for a cut in range hood ,the Cabbie also didn't allow for the hinges going to be higher thus you raising them on the door ,kleenmaid are like all the others in regards to warranties and are very specific about the construction methods needed for their products ,i can only surmise that in this case you have paid a peanut price and have ended up with a monkey doing the job :confused:

Agreed but I still think the sparky should have jacked up and refused to install it. I would have.

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Originally Posted by arms

the Cabbie also didn't allow for the hinges going to be higher thus you raising them on the door

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Well spotted mate.:)

In fact I am glad I was the one who fixed it. (and yes I mean I am more skilful then they are.) The range hood is way too big for the supporting panel. There is hardly anything left after cutting the big hole. I had to handle the panel very carefully otherwise it would break into pieces.

The real losers here are my in-laws.:mad:

I have a magnetic induction cooktop as well. I had to provide adequate ventilation to the front of the cabinetry immediately underneath the benchtop. The induction tops are fan cooled.

It is the fault of the cabinetmaker as he/she should have asked you about appliances during the initial design brief and then double check appliances again before the kitchen went into production.

Here is an interesting idea. What does Mr & Mrs No Idea do when they decide to put an induction cooktop in an existing kitchen? It think it is definitely up to the retailer to notify the client that they will require the services of a licenced cabinetmaker as well as an electrician to install their new cooktop.

But then again, they wouldn't be selling as many induction tops, would they?

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Here is an interesting idea. What does Mr & Mrs No Idea do when they decide to put an induction cooktop in an existing kitchen? It think it is definitely up to the retailer to notify the client that they will require the services of a licenced cabinetmaker as well as an electrician to install their new cooktop.

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and i agree with this comment ,but from what little experience (only 25 years) i have had with customers they would have been fascinated by the displays and not heard of product specs any way and if they took the time to read them they would have said thats not my problem as i am only redoing the kitchen not remaking the kitchen ,the public (me included) are fickle creatures and only listen,hear and remember the things that are beneficial to themself :eek:

On a related note, I have to tell all my clients that the wonderful rangehood that they've been sold is not, in fact, complete. I've yet to see a rangehood that comes with either charcoal filters or ducting and you need to use one or the other for them to really work. You'd think the sales people would tell the clients, especially as there's an opportunity for them to get a few more dollars from the punter.

Mick