Why can't I stain timber black?

All,

Obviously there's some fundamental issue that I'm missing so please enlighten me!

I'm making some simple picture frames that I want to be black. I could paint them but I thought I'd stain them to retain the grain pattern.

I got some Feast Watson Japan black and straight black stains and as a test, I did 4 applications on each of pine DAR and tassie oak DAR. The finish is black-ish (more so the black stain than the Japan) and the grain pattern shows really well, but they are not black, more black-ish coloured timber. I can see the yellow of the pine and the light brown of the T/O coming through.

Is there a pre-treatment I'm supposed to use or are my expectations re Black over cooked?

Cheers,

Mark.

My son and I are building him a guitar amplifier. He wanted a stained black finish. We applied multiple coats of FW Black Japan spirit stain diluted with FW reducer. We never got close to a black finish. It was a washed-out blue/grey colour. In the end I sprayed it with Mirocat 3220 tinted with the FW black Japan stain. The result is a very black, slightly translucent finish. Took a lot of coats though. Not quite what he was looking for, but better than black paint.

Is the product you using a stain? Or a stain / varnish?

And is the product water or oil based ?

Use a spirit based stain to get the colour you want, then overcoat with a clear finish of your choice that is compatible.

Stain / varnish and water based finishes are film forming with the colour in each layer, if you are using one of these just keep adding more coats to get a deeper finish, personally I use the previous method.

If you’re getting a blue black you need to add a touch of red or something with red in it to turn it jet black.

To build a non see through black I use spirit stains mixed with shellac
. The more coats the better at blotting out the timber.

If you search the forums for Porters Palm Beach Black, I did a review a few years ago using it on Jarrah and American Oak (veneered board).

I’m looking at some American Oak veneered speakers that I used the PBB on and I’m really happy with them. The Jarrah which was used for an outdoor gate has also held up really well.

Just to add, staining pine, especially with F&W isn't going to be easy. Like Auscab said, use it with shellac and add plenty of coats.

It's possible to minimise the no. of coats required by using the ol' steel wool & vinegar trick to 'darken' the timber first...

But I've found it to be impractical. It involves adding several more steps to the job (& associated chemicals) along with the time spent. It's more effective just to add a few more tinted coats.

Mix some lamp black universal tint with shellac. Works well but if you do that you might just as well use black paint or black lacquer.

Wattyl used to have black Colourwood stain that was pretty close to jet black and went well on pine. Use a stain not a dye. The stain will blanket the wood surface with colour or in this case non colour (black). Shouldn't go gray but will allow a little of the grain to show through in the case of pine the summerwood will come through as a dark gold colour in plain sawn wood, whereas quarter sawn wood will take a black stain much more evenly.

So look at the end grain of the wood for the growth rings to be 60-90 degrees almost straight up and down and not in a curve across the end. This will give you a surface area that is more softwood than hard and will accept and hold the stain so much better.

If you're using plywood or veneer. It could be hard to get a good black stain to work without a bit of prep work, fine sand wipe over with Sanding Sealer to raise the grain torn by the sanding, then wipe over with 800 grit to remove the raised nibs. WIPE DON'T SAND or you may tear the grain again. Then continue on with the black stain. and finish off with the surface coating of your choice.

Don't use an oil or a wax as a finish. Use shellac, polyurethane, lacquer, etc. If it needs to be a bit darker add a little lamp black universal tint to the finish.

I have a special tried and true formula for a stabilized, non toxic, chemical dye, which is often called Liquid Nightmare. This will chemically age the colour of the wood depending on the wood used and it's tannin content, it can ebonise even the most bland woods. It can also be coloured to give deep ebonised red, brown, blue or green, etc.

We're keeping production of it for a time when we're no wnere near as snowed under with work, and really not too keen to expand our range of products and workload for now.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

Ditto to the comment above. Buy very fine ground lamp black or furnace black. Just be careful handling the pigment because it'll be on our fingers and everything you touch if you're not careful.

It'll look like thinned paint if you do it right.

For earth colors, it's nice to pay a few extra bucks to get micronized pigments - they will stick to planed and burnished surfaces whereas more coarse pigment may not. To the point that I can't see the difference staining a board that's hand planed and one that's sanded. I've not found micronized lamp or furnace black, but have found graphite micronized - just haven't used it in a finish as I intend to give firing a few pencil leads (which are ceramic clay and graphite mixes) a shot.

Black is pretty hard, but the easiest way is with india ink from Eckersleys.

The very best method ive ever found is with Osmo 3590 Black Oil Stain

This is the result.....

Attachment 532986

+1 for Indian Ink from Eckersleys. I like the Windsor & Newton brand (the permanent version) mixed with Neil’s lovely hard shellac.

wP put me onto Osmo black a year or two ago and I agree it’s a superbly black black.

Brian

Osmo 3590 Black Oil Stain is $179 per litre!

Holy sh….. Batman.

Does it go a long way?

Whole floors!

I've a 500ml and used it on a hundred things. Ive STILL 98% left.

BTW, it re-blacks the handles of Japanese knives superbly.

I used to use Black Japan also, but it isn't "black". If you wipe on some BJ, then wipe it off, you will see it actually gives an antique red/brown. In fact antique restorers use it for this very reason.

Feast Watson Prooftint in black is real black, tint the timber first with the product, then add some to the finish, it will then deepen the more coats you apply. Something like Feast Watson Floorseal is a very clear finish (not amber like other varnishes), I used to add some Prooftint to that.

Another solution which I have not tried is to burn (scorch) the wood, check out Mark Tuckey's website (He's a furniture maker) he has some black pieces on there you can view. I like this look a lot.

Eggcup Stool
– Mark Tuckey

As I was reading through the thread I thought "nobody has mentioned Feast Watson's Prooftint." Then in the last post La Huerta mentioned it.

I have used it twice. Once for this knife block, which has had three reincarnations as it started out with three knives, then two more knives and then two cleavers were added. The block was rebuilt or added to each time. The timber is rubbishy pine from packing crates. Gloss varnish was applied over the top of the stain.

Attachment 533377Attachment 533378Attachment 533379

The second time (actually it may have been the first as I can't recall in which order these were made :rolleyes: ) was for a replica of Gerrit Rietveld's Red Blue Chair. While the seat and back are painted as per the original, the frame is stained black as was the original. The timber in this instance is Ironbark. I did want the grain to show through so I only used two coats of Prooftint. Also, over time it has faded a little. In the third pic the bluish colour is reflection and not actual. The square components must have had a heavier treatment as they are virtually dense black.

Attachment 533380Attachment 533381Attachment 533382

I think it is possible to attain a dense black with multiple coats, but then the grain does not show though and you may as well paint it black. As with most stains different timbers will absorb at different rates.

Regards
Paul

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

As I was reading through the thread I thought "nobody has mentioned Feast Watson's Prooftint." Then in the last post La Huerta mentioned it.

---

Post 3 ??

And from Feast Watsons website

Quote:

---

Available in a range of warm, natural and deeper tones, Prooftint™ is a unique, concentrated, spirit-based stain that allows the full clarity of the timber

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by woodPixel

The very best method ive ever found is with Osmo 3590 Black Oil Stain

---

Been looking into this stuff, I must say it looks very good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by droog

Post 3 ??

And from Feast Watsons website

---

droog

I don't see that Prooftint was mentioned by name. I particularly picked up on this as the OP had referred to FW's Black Japan, which at first glance would seem a similar product: It is not, with "black" being where the similarity ends. I expect there would be other products out there that compare, but I can only talk of my own experience.

I guess I have fallen into the "Hoover" syndrome trap or for woodies "Masonite" instead of hardboard.

:)

Regards
Paul

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I particularly picked up on this as the OP had referred to FW's Black Japan, which at first glance would seem a similar product: It is not, with "black" being where the similarity ends.

---

I'm glad you pointed it out, because I thought the FW Black Japan was the only black they had.

Both the Japan black and black stains I mentioned in my first post here were Feast Watson Prooftint.

I ended up spray painting the frames with one coat undercoat and three light passes on satin black. Came out pretty good with the grain of the tassie oak on show.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

Been looking into this stuff, I must say it looks very good.

---

Years back I went through the whole "try everything" to get the blackest black that wasn't paint.

I was keen to ensure the timbers qualities weren't simply drowned out by fillers and coats.

If I remember rightly, I tested damned near everything. Aniline (sp?) dies, inks, stains, everything to get black black.

This is where I fell on the the Osmo 3590 Black Oil Stain.

It soaked right in, didn't sit on the surface, made the deepest black of any method I tried and repeated applications showed that after the work is done, its done.... no need for more. One didn't waste it due to this (its $$$ stuff!)

It also didn't rub off or wear down, took a burnishing and touched up perfectly. A landlubber can use it without skill.

Like the ancient blue-water-in-chalk ad, this stuff soaked into the timber. It isn't a surface treatment.

I strongly recommend it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by woodPixel

Years back I went through the whole "try everything" to get the blackest black that wasn't paint.

I was keen to ensure the timbers qualities weren't simply drowned out by fillers and coats.

If I remember rightly, I tested damned near everything. Aniline (sp?) dies, inks, stains, everything to get black black.

This is where I fell on the the Osmo 3590 Black Oil Stain.

It soaked right in, didn't sit on the surface, made the deepest black of any method I tried and repeated applications showed that after the work is done, its done.... no need for more. One didn't waste it due to this (its $$$ stuff!)

It also didn't rub off or wear down, took a burnishing and touched up perfectly. A landlubber can use it without skill.

Like the ancient blue-water-in-chalk ad, this stuff soaked into the timber. It isn't a surface treatment.

I strongly recommend it.

---

Have you tried any other colours in the same brand?. I'd be interested to hear if anyones managed to do a nice walnut colour with one of the pigments.

I've used indian ink before. Very black.

I bought a little bottle from a newsagent but larger bottles (500mL) can be found at OfficeWorks




I see indian ink has been proposed earlier. I didn't see page 1 of this thread before replying.