Tablesaw Feeding

Hi all,

I have a specific question for all those experienced users regarding feed technique and stance.

I've read as many books as I can get my hands on, all the websites I can find (lots) and many forum posts yet when I can to rip a 600x200mm piece of 9mm mdf in half yesterday, I was still not exactly sure of the safest technique.

Attached are two scenarios:

Scenario 1 shows me standing on the left side (non-fence side) of the blade with my left hand applying pressure to keep the stock against the fence. my right hand feeds the woork through the blade.

Scenario 2 shows me standing behind the fence on the right side of the blade. Featherboard applying fencward pressure. Right hand feeding stock with hands/push block.

Which of these, is the correct technuique? If any? Which technique do you use?

It's this sort of fine, yet basic detail that authors and so caleld "experts" leave out of their books. The two demonstrations I've seen had one bloke pulling the work from the back of the saw and the other using an offcut as a pushstick :(


I've attached the images and also (trying) the powerpoint so you can move the little symbols if need be.

You would have to be a spaz to push the timber through in most of your drawings.

Just do what ever feels comfortable..
With push sticks of course.

Al :confused:

Al,

Thats why I'm asking, I dont want to be a spaz, I want to do it right.

What Ozwinner has said - never, ever, go around and pull stuff through.

I always aim to have my hands a minimum of 100mm from the blade; never push directly in line with the blade - the timber could crack/split, a push stick could slip, etc. In any case once the stock has engaged the blade, it shouldn't need any pressure to hold it against the fence.

Similarly, I always stand anywhere but directly behind the blase or the stock - if it kicks back - smile for the camera!

Cheers!

Scenario 1.

Standing to left of blade, left hand puts pressure towards the fence, right hand feeds timber.

And in Tassie, other hand holds beer can.:D :D

Whatever you do, just don't stand behind the timber :eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Auld Bassoon

In any case once the stock has engaged the blade, it shouldn't need any pressure to hold it against the fence.
Cheers!

---

Really?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineLefty

Really?

---

Just as well you asked isnt it..??

Al :)

I use the attitude that if u use common sence, and use the correct aids, like push sticks, feather boards etc, and u should stand in a manner that is comfortable and lets u feel natural and in control, then u should b fine. I think that standing to far off to the side makes it feel unsafe and unnatural..... Each to their own! :)

Scenario 1.
My power switch is on the left side of the saw so I don't have to worry about timber in the cut line if I want to shut down quick.

My hands don't go within a foot of the blade.
(get bitten once and you soon lose the 100mm is safe enough mentality)
Sometimes I use 2 pushsticks,
1 for feeding the other to hold timber against the fence
I don't reach past the spinning blade to hold or retrieve timber

I always stand with left foot forward and right foot behind so If I fall over it should be away from the saw.

Bob,

So when you're pushing the stock through the blade, where is the right hand/push stick? on the fence side or the other?

I always use 2 push sticks too, same a Bob, mine are 600mm long.
You should see the nicks in them..
600mm is as close as I want to get to high speed tungsten....

Al :eek:

on the fence side.
Its got a rounded heel and I don't hold it against my palm. If you use a thin straight stick nestled against the heel of your palm a kickback may force the stick into your palm through your skin.

Get a bandsaw lefty, less chance of kickback.

Al :cool:

The bloke that agisted his TS with me also lent me a bandsaw. A tiny 7.5 inch ryobi jobbie. Not much good other than cutting up pine shapes for kiddies toys.

I doubt I'll ask it to resaw this Karri I've got lying around.

Bob,

Far be it from me to contradict you, but are you not reaching over the blade as you push the stock through? You're OK with this?

Lefty, Scenario 1 is correct, theirs not much to add. The demo you seen with a bloke pulling it out the back is correct, its called "tailing out" common in cabinet shops. The other thing is ripping. most fences have a secondry fence that can be slid back and foward. when ripping solid timber slide the secondry fence back so it finishes where the blade stops. I prefer it at the center of the blade, others where it finishes, some saw mills like it right at the start, it stops any chance of the timber binding. push stick is a must but not the long plastic crap that comes with a saw, and using 2 at the same time is dangerous:eek: as far as im concerned. and my rule on hand distance from the blade is around 20mm (good for me, but i dont expect others to follow) some have said 100mm - to far away, you lose control to easy. the other issue is blade height and that is a whole thread in its self:D

Since a hand injury quite a few years ago I use feather boards quite a lot now. :rolleyes: :cool: :cool:

They should be positioned within a few mm of the front edge of the blade to give maximum pressure for the longest time timber is being cut. This gives the saw operator the opportunity to concentrate on a constant feed rate parallel with the saw blade but without the danger of your hand coming in contact with the blade. eg; push sticks. What you are NOT doing is trying to push in 2 directions at once. (against the fence & forward) http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ons/icon14.gif

Featherboards or pressure roller would be the go for you Adam, if you feel uncomfortable using the saw this way, stop turn the saw off and play with fence side, stance head tilt and so forth. Basically find a technique that you are comfortable with and go from there, i've worked with dozens of benchmen, a few of them real honest to goodness sawyers, & the only real common denominator is unless facing up the timber, we never stand in direct line with the flitch, even my 8 year old daughter knows that. (actually she's a great little tailor-out):) but then apparently so was her Mum by her teen years.

OK, I'll be bold. I have never had a kickback in my life and I know my father never did either. That's about 75 years using table saws. Both of us would stand in a position to control the stock and that means on the right of the blade between the blade and the fence, using the left hand to move the offcut out of the way. This mightn't be safe according to OSHA but I reckon you can get into a lot of trouble standing too far off to one side. I guess I'll be attacked by the saw next time I use it now....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MurrayD99

OK, I'll be bold. I have never had a kickback in my life and I know my father never did either. That's about 75 years using table saws. Both of us would stand in a position to control the stock and that means on the right of the blade between the blade and the fence, using the left hand to move the offcut out of the way. This mightn't be safe according to OSHA but I reckon you can get into a lot of trouble standing too far off to one side. I guess I'll be attacked by the saw next time I use it now....

---

Same, never had a kick back in 20 years, add that to murray and his dad and its 95 years with out a kickback, and i do it the same way except im on the left, and start to think fat push stick with stock under 50mm width.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

..... and start to think fat push stick with stock under 50mm width.

---

Right, absolutely.... the push stick hangs off the saw so there is no excuse for not using it. You know, bandsaws worry me more than table saws... and skilsaws, I think, are just plain nasty - probably related to tiger snakes, not that we have anything like that here in Godzone..

I don't think i heard you properly Redwood, 20mm??????, Check your ruler, you're headin for trouble.
Linelefty - there's a book by Ian Kirby that's well worth the money
The Accurate Tablesaw (pretty sure, but it's deffinately Kirby)
He's big on safety, stance, keeping fingers, stuff like that.
Sometimes two pushsticks are good, sometimes one. Just don't stand directly behind it, and don't put flesh anywhere near blade.
20 mm , F--- Me, that's a worry
Hugh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hugh Reid

...20 mm , F--- Me, that's a worry
Hugh

---

Er... 20 years, 50 m/m were the figures..... 20m/m would be "dicing"....

Hey, Lefty;
Not sure how to advise a southpaw on this- what's comfortable for me probably isn't for you. It seems you have all the do's and don'ts pretty well sussed, perhaps it's time to make a few cuts and see what feels right?

My basics:
-stand offside, not inline with the stock;
-feed long pieces with both hands until pushsticks/tailing out necessary; get assistance if possible;
-blade low on all operations (subject to review);
-never look along line of spinning blade without safety glasses;
-saw always off when adjusting fence.

Practice body awareness- know where both hands are at all times; stand straight with even weight distribution (Echnidna's foot placement is a good tip), and keep the area around your saw free from obstructions and tripping hazards. Stick to light beer, and NEVER, EVER HURRY.

Have a go. You'll be right.;)

Regards
Rusty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gumby

Scenario 1.

Standing to left of blade, left hand puts pressure towards the fence, right hand feeds timber.

---

This is how I do it and I haven't had any problems to date. Also, just remember to have your push stick handy so you can maintain the progress of the cut without stopping. If you stop during the cut, you risk getting friction burns on the workpiece by having the wood in the one place too long.

Cheers,
Keith

Thanks for the replies all.

I made a few more cuts last night and, being a lefty, I just cant get comfortable with Scenario 1. If stand on the left, the my non-dominant right hand is reaching over the blade when I push the stock through.

It seems much more natural for me to use a featherboard (I paid $15 bucks for one from timbecon and the mitreslot locks are atrociuos), stand behind the fence and feed with my left hand.

That means my right hand isnt being used so if I chop one off, I've got a spare.

Seriously though, I also made a sturdee push block (link to come) which seems the bees nees for short stuff.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=8047

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MurrayD99

Er... 20 years, 50 m/m were the figures..... 20m/m would be "dicing"....

---

Well actualy Murry, i have no problem having my fingers 20mm from the blade. iv been doing it that wat ever since i can remember and still have all my digits.

Im totaly confortable where the blade is compared to my fingers and totaly aware of the type of timber being pushed through if i need to be more cautious. case hardend timber will jam and you can tell pretty quick if your ripping some, flat sawn can twist so im always thinking of that, its horses for courses.

if im pushing ply through im even im still comfortable with my fingers 10-15mm from the blade. Im in the have your gullet just clearing the timber camp, so their isnt much exposed blade for me to worry about.

the reference to 50mm was anything over in width im also (shock horror to all you reading it) comfortable with pushing my hand inbetween the blade and fence. as i said 20 years n still 10 fingers. but when the timber width gets to 50 and below i use my push stick. moral for me is not to be scared at all, but respect what is in front of you.

I wont even begin to tell you all how i use my cross cut sled:eek: ill freak yous out:D

EDIT-- I agree with silent. my way is for ME and i wouldnt advocate that method to anyone especialy inexperienced woodworkers. Keep 100mm away like everyone has said and when you gain experience then you will know your limits

I'm similar to you there Redwood. Fairly comfortable with that kind of proximity in certain situations. However, I wouldn't normally be advocating it, or even discussing it in a thread posted by someone new to tablesaws. Best rule of thumb is to keep at least 100mm away at all times, using push sticks, shoes and feather boards.

Adam, I see a woodwork who is lack of confidence here. You’ve done your research. You have a tablesaw. You have a piece of wood in your hand. You work out the comfortable way for you to cut it. If you still worry then maybe you should work on your confidence rather than finding “the right way”.

It is not that hard. All you need are respect for the machine, common sense and confidence. C’mon lets starting pushing.

:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentC

I'm similar to you there Redwood. Fairly comfortable with that kind of proximity in certain situations..........

---

I think we all "know" what to do when we set about cutting various widths, without necessarily being able to tell anyone exactly what that is.... as mentioned, we probably don't want to confess some of our working practices too loudly either. I know I get nervous when I bring the fence up close to the blade and there is not much room for error - like, less than 75 - 100 m/m - a push stick comes to mind/hand. Other times, yes, I get a bit close and I don't lose sleep. Perhaps for these reasons, I did not feel comfortable with the guard and pawls supplied with the big blue saw. To me, they created a complex, cluttered environment and I thought the risk to my hands higher than the protection.

Adam,
I never really thought much about it until I attended some basic wood wroking classes at the local community college.

The instructor, in his late thirties, has been woodworking since the age of 9. He was most adamant about using his technique in school. Since using his technique, I tend to agree with his methods and rules.

Always watch the stock where it is in contact with the fence. Keep the stock in tight contact with the fence.

There is a red zone of 15 CM around the blade. In the red zone, no fingers! No fingers on stock, no fingers on table, no fingers in the red zone what so ever.

Use push sticks if contact with the stock is necessary in the red zone.

Duties of the left hand are to push the stock into the fence and into the table. The left hand starts at the edge of the table and applies pressure to the stock but does not enter the red zone. The left hand stops at the red zone but continues to apply pressure down into the table and to the right towards the fence. (If splinters are a problem, wrap the thumb and index finger with adhesive (plaster?) tape.) The middle part of the fingers (between the top two knuckles) are always flat on the table.

The duties of the right hand are to feed the stock through the cut and use a push stick. When feeding stock through the saw, the fingers are never spread out. The position of the fingers of the right hand is more like a spider. When pushing stock the thumb is positioned behind the index and middle finger. In theory, your index finger will get to the saw blade before the thumb HOWEVER you can see the blade and index finger where the thumb may be hidden from view and could easily go into the blade unseen.

The stock is ALWAYS fed through and past the blade. NEVER, NEVER EVER draw stock backwards through the blade.

Push sticks that allow a downward pressure while feeding the stock through the saw are the best. The best position for a push stick is as close to the cut as possible. This prevents the tendancy to push the stock around to the left, away from the fence during the cut.

No helpers! Do NOT allow any one to help you on the out feed side of the table saw. Usually the helper will cause the stock to pinch the blade. The the saw will throw the stock back into the face of the operator. a.k.a. A Kick Back.

If you have a splitter for the saw, USE IT. If you don't have a splitter, get one, install it and use it.

I'm sure that there are other rules that I forgot to include here.

Rich, you might not have noticed but Adam is a southpaw ;)

I also have to disagree on one point. There are times when having someone to tail out is very handy and if you instruct them properly in what to do, there shouldn't be an issue. Simple rule: don't grab and pull, just support.

Has anyone got any good photos of the results of incorrect sawing techniques??? I have a client who is a plastic and reconstructive surgeon.

Tailing out is very important on occaisons.


My hands don't get anywhere near close enough to my table saw. Currently several thousand miles, maybe closer if the iron ore hasn't even been mined yat. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hardwood Hacker

Has anyone got any good photos of the results of incorrect sawing techniques??? I have a client who is a plastic and reconstructive surgeon.

---

There's the odd photo posted on this forum. There's also a good bit of reading in a list of tablesaw related industrial accidents if the photos don't put the wind up you ;)

Here you go: http://www.amgron.clara.net/circular.../accidents.htm

And try this for a photo: http://mosnews.com/news/2005/09/01/sawedman.shtml

• Don't stand in line with the blade
  
• Keep you hands well away from the blade
  
• If ripping less than 100mm use a push stick and featherboards
  
• Always use the spiltter and guard unless you're doing a non-through cut or using a cross-cut sled
  
• Keep the stock tight against the fence

Works for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineLefty

I made a few more cuts last night and, being a lefty, I just cant get comfortable with Scenario 1.

---

Adam,

I don't know what type of saw you have, but it would seem to me that you would possibly feel more comfortable if you could position the fence to the left of the blade. You will then be able to use a mirror image of "Scenario 1" in a manner that will probably be more natural to a southpaw.

Chris

Or buy yourself a Triton!!

Nice Avatar SilentC. Would you like a smegging tea cake?

I'll have another go feeding from the rigth hand side as that seems to be popular wisdom. Perhaps there's a psychological comfort in behing behind the fence.

you're rigth Wongo, there is a definite lack of confidence. I've been given this saw, a manual in chinese-translated english and away I go. I havent had a chance to see an experienced user make some cuts so I'm at a bit of a disadvatage to most. Some of the retailers have demos from time to time which I'll definitely go along to.

Thanks for your replies everyone, very much appreciated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentC

Or buy yourself a Triton!!

---

Crawler. An obvious attempt at getting a greeny from me. ;)

You failed BTW. :D :D