French polishing questions

I'm french polishing some drawer fronts. The wood looks beautiful. I've padded up about 6 layers of white shellac (premix from ubeaut), and begun the french polish stage. They are actually coming up much better than my previous attempts, but I'm still having trouble getting a glassy shine. I get close to this stage, and then drop back to very little shellac, and just metho, and I just can't keep it nice. The closer it gets to mirror finish, the more it sticks, and the more I get swirl marks, and burn through. Working in short bursts helps to let it dry more between passes helps, but I still can't get rid of the swirl marks.

Any french polish experts in Brisbane who can give me a hands-on lesson? :U

I'm using 95% diggers metho - I've looked for 100% ethanol, but cannot find it.
I'm using predissolved white shellac, use by date is August 2023. I'm thinning it down 2-parts shellac with 1 part metho.
I'm using 100% cotton wadding for the pad, wrapped in 100% cotton weave, similar to t-shirt material. My pad is quite small for this project, about the size of a big thumb, and that is certainly working better than a larger pad.
The drawers are small, so I have several drawers on rotation, doing one pass on each, so each pass has more time to dry before I go back over with the next pass.
Previously, I've tried to do too much shellac, and the pad was getting a buildup of smooth shellac on it, but I've dropped back the amount of shellac, and using more alcohol, and this has greatly improved things.

Also, if the finish is not smooth, does this make it more likely to crackle in the future, or is that unrelated? Is it OK to just sand the surface and keep working it until it gets smooth, or is it better to take it right back and start over?

Attachment 507722

UBeauts Foodsafe Plus data sheet suggests that it can be used as lubricant to stop sticking when french polishing and maybe of some help.

Not an expert in FP, so cant offer much wisdom there.... but 100% metho can be obtained from most dedicated paint stores. They call it "IMS".

At my local place (called The Paint Place in Philip and another in Mitchel) it is 1L $9.95 and 4L $24.95 both made by Sceneys in Melbourne.

Hi, hope you get the hang of it, it's worth persisting. I can only highly recommend Neil's (our Benevolent Dictator) Polishers Handbook, I learnt how to French polish by following the instructions meticulously. Did you fill the pores? Essential for that mirror flat glassy finish. Anyway, it's all in the book, also worth searching French Polish posts in this forum. Lots of rubbish on the youtube, but this one How to French Polish - Woodworking Finish with Shellac - YouTube is fantastic!

If you were working on your piece last week, it was just about the worst FP weather imaginable - humid as heck. I normally prefer to FP in the cooler, drier months when you get faster drying & stabilising after a rub-down, but I too was polishing & it was slow-going. (I was finishing my entry for the Wootha competition, now cancelld! :C )

I've done a fair bit of FP over the years, but don't consider myself an expert by any means. I did think I was getting pretty good at it once, but then I saw the work of a fellow club-member (a trained pro) and realized I have only begun! But fwiw, I'll give you my 2c worth. From your description, I think you were just pushing it too quickly and not letting it dry adequately before the next rub-over. Also, in very humid weather, I break the stock polish down more, 50/50 is ok for initial filling, but something like 60 (alcohol) to 40 polish is better for the polishing stage in humid weather. It's slow-going and you'll need more 'coats' but it sets quicker & minimises swirl marks. I go over the surface with the rubber in the prescribed circular pattern, then finish with long straight strokes, turning gently at the ends so as to not lift the rubber off the surface. If the rubber starts to stick, stop immediately & let it set. I was finding I could only safely do a rub-over about 3 times per day on those very humid days we had (before it went weirdly cold for this time of year - it's like Melbourne weather!).

If you make a mess there are several ways to sort it. Sandpaper is useless, it will fill & clog in about two swipes. I have read recommendations to use wet & dry with a light oil but never tried it, it seems to me you'd spend more time cleaning up the mess than its worth. My preferred method is to use a very sharp card scraper & carefully scrape the offending area smooth. It's a bit tricky if you are not used to card scrapers, & all too easy to get deep marks from the corners so practice on a test piece first. The advantage of scraping is that it won't remove whatever you have managed to push into the pores and the surface will re-build quickly. A safer, but somewhat more brutal way is to use 0000 steel wool and cut the surface back (make sure it is thoroughly 'dry' first). Also make sure you remove all the tiny bits of steel that get everywhere, and only use good quality steel wool made for finishing, that doesn't have oil or detergents in it.

If you want a super shine, the way to achieve that is to let the polish harden up for a couple of days or so, then use a clean rubber barely moistened with a spray of alcohol (just a hint of alcohol, it definitely should not feel 'wet'). Go over & over the piece, occasionally refreshing the tiny amount of alcohol in the rubber, until the surface is perfect. Depending on how deep the swirl marks or defects are, this will take anywhere from a long time to forever....
:)
Cheers,

It's been a few years since I have done any French Polishing, I still have some blond flakes in my workshop and mixing your own is way better than buying off the shelf. I used to build up the layers and use pumice powder to grain fill. My French polish teacher at collage all those years ago taught us to apply it in a figure 8 motion. I think from the pic you are getting too much shellac onto your piece from the pad, also the pad needs to have a flat'ish area of say 25 to 40mm in diameter (depends on size of piece you are polishing) which comes in contact with the piece you are polishing, a smaller pad can get a build up of shellac around the perimeter quicker and with a smaller pad area to work with it is harder to stop that old thicker sticky shellac from making contact with your piece. When building up the layers you will see areas that look shinier than others this means the shellac is sitting on the surface better due to the grain in this area being filled, you need to keep building up the layers and filling the grain until all the piece looks consistently shiny. You can use oil to help lubricate the pad, the oil will not mix with the shellac but say on the surface of your piece and can be removed right at the end of the polishing process using a very small amount of alcohol wiped over the surface of the piece.

I may be able to help you. I have been taught by a professional although I don't do much of it these days. I am in Hawthorne Brisbane, if that is convenient send me a PM with your phone Number and I will contact you. John

Good advice, camelot. What you do is 'genuine' french-polishing and the method most often described in old texts. The alternative to adding pummice as you build is to grain-fill before starting, which is the way I was taught. It's the 'easier' way, but most fillers tend to cloud the wood & don't get as clear a finish as adding the pummice as you go. On finer-grained woods I prefer to fill with the polish itself, which takes longer, but imo gives a clearer finish. Woods like Qld Maple (which appears to be what the OP is polishing) have very large pores & really need filling one way or the other if you want a glass-smooth finish.

And I hesitate to say it in this forum (sorry Neil) but I have found the pre-mixed polish is a bit harder to work with than home-mixed from flakes, too. It doesn't seem to firm up as much between rubs, and is more likely to stick & pull if you push things too quickly, so if you are a newbie at polishing it's easier to get into trouble. However, it's damned convenient, has a better shelf-life when mixed, & much more convenient when you only polish small items occasionally as I've been doing these last 10 years or so.... :U
Cheers,

PS: Forgot to say that oil will help a lot when you start out. We were taught to use a dab of BLO every now & then, as needed. Just touch the oil with your finger & wipe it on the rubber - it will make the rubber glide across the work. As you become more practised you get better at judging the feel of the rubber & how much pressure to apply & use less & less oil..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swifty

Lots of rubbish on the youtube, but this one How to French Polish - Woodworking Finish with Shellac - YouTube is fantastic!

---

Aha, that's exactly the one I watched earlier this week, and yes, this is the video that got me from 40% to 90%! It's a really good demo of the process.

Thanks for all your hints. I was wondering if the pre-mix might be a little slower drying, and this could certainly be part of my issue, as that's really what it feels like. I'm using this white shellac on parts of the project, and plan to get some dark shellac for other parts. I have some Feast Watson orange flakes, and used some, but I can see a very slight green tinge in comparison to other parts of the piece, so I'm not sure what's going on there. It maybe needs just a half-drop of red-brown stain to colour match the rest of the piece.

@IanW, thanks for the suggestion of the scraper. I absolutely LOVE my card scraper, and will give it a go. I'll make it nice and sharp and take light strokes. As you said, sandpaper is almost useless, and very frustrating. I did try 0000 steel wool on another section, and noticed the day after, my polish pad was covered in black spots, which I assume was tiny pieces of steel wool that rusted away overnight. I don't want that to happen to the finish, so I'm either avoiding steel wool altogether, or wiping down the finish after. I'm not sure if the steel wool was responsible for the slight green tinge in the flake shellac.

I'm not sure what the wood is, but definitely not Qld Maple. It is an antique made in Indiana USA, so it will be a local wood over there. It was previously polished, and after scraping the old finish off, the wood was super smooth with hardly any open grain. Most of the piece is black walnut.

Wet and dry sandpaper (600-800 grit) works a treat for smoothing the surface if you lubricate it with turps.

Sorry for the delayed response to this only just saw a notification about it this morning and just got to it an hour or so ago, so...

Hello surfdabbler, here's my thoughts.

From the it looks of the pic it's been a bit too much shellac and too wet.

100% IMS (Ethanol) is preferable to 95% and usually available at any half decent paint shop but often only in 4 lt tins instead of 55ml or 1lt although looking at woodpixels link to Sceneys Melb they have 1lt listed.

"A Polishers Handbook" can be of great help and has set many people on the right track for all sorts of polishing.

Using oil as a lubricant is an almost essential part of the polishing process especially for a good high shine. As for the oil to use I recommend our FoodSafe Plus oil which is high-end medical grade heavy paraffin oil. Traditionally polishers used BLO or or standard linseed oil. Both if left on the surface of the work can skin if left overnight especially BLO which has a drier in it.

Foodsafe being a non drying oil so at the end of the day you can (shouldn't but can)leave it on the surface and go on holiday for a month come back and pickup the work where you left off. Like you had gone for lunch and come back.

The other good thing about the Foodsafe is that a little of it gets trapped in the matrix of the polish which won't hurt the finish in the slightest but will serve to enhance it and make the grain pop especially if the wood has any figuring like fiddleback, burl or flame etc.


I'm using predissolved white shellac, use by date is August 2023. I'm thinning it down 2-parts shellac with 1 part metho.

That shellac is a 3lb cut so a little stronger than others which are usually around 2lb cut and mixed with 95% IMS instead of 100%. Best starting point is to take some out of the bottle and mix it with equal parts IMS.

You can also cut some of that mix 50/50 with IMS for use later on in the polishing process. If brushing it on then start with weakest and progress to 2nd weakest and finish off wit one coat of full strength shellac.

I'm using 100% cotton wadding for the pad, If it's white wadding where the hell did you get it. Been trying to get some for years ever since they said there was no longer a need for it and went to the coloured stuff which can also have all sorts of other stuff in it like bits of wire metal shavings etc.
wrapped in 100% cotton weave, similar to t-shirt material.Good, but worn linen or cotton is better.

My pad is quite small for this project, about the size of a big thumb, and that is certainly working better than a larger pad.Too small twice the size would be better. More surface coverage and way less witness lines from the application. (Witness lines or marks are the marks left behind by the rubber hence the swirl marks.)



The drawers are small, so I have several drawers on rotation, doing one pass on each, so each pass has more time to dry before I go back over with the next pass.If you have the right amount of shellac in the rubber you should be able to go over each draw at least 2 or 3 times before moving on to the next.

Previously, I've tried to do too much shellac, and the pad was getting a buildup of smooth shellac on it, but I've dropped back the amount of shellac, and using more alcohol, and this has greatly improved things.Hence the reason to do the cuts of shellac with metho, as above.

Also, if the finish is not smooth, does this make it more likely to crackle in the future, or is that unrelated?
Unrelated, crackle usually comes about by having incompatible finishes, movement in the wood, and sometimes polishes used over the top of the shellac.


Is it OK to just sand the surface and keep working it until it gets smooth, or is it better to take it right back and start over?Personally I'd be inclined to sand with wet n dry using water with a drop or 2 of dishwashing detergent added as a wetting agent. This stope the abrasive from clogging.


you can use the wet n dry with turpentine (mineral not pure) or white spirits and this will make the abrasive cut a little more aggressively.

If you cut back to bare wood make sure the entire surface is cut back to bare wood if you have some that is still showing and start to polish again you may well get blotchy effect as the first coat will be the first coat to the raw wood. Whilst it could be the second or even the third coats going onto any that was left on the surface. This will give shiny and dull sections throughout the rest of the finishing process.

On use of the rubber: start off with small circles then figure 8's then large ovals back to medium circles elongated figure 8's then straighten out with the grain with long tight ovals from end to end then straighten out again by gliding rubber onto the work from one end and glide off at the other end do this until the entire surface has been covered. DO NOT DO THIS WITH A WET RUBBER!

NEVER LET THE RUBBER STOP ON THE SURFACE EVEN FOR A SPLIT SECOND.

Hope this is of a little help to you and anyone else having problems with French polishing.

Cheers - Neil :U

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanW

And I hesitate to say it in this forum (sorry Neil) but I have found the pre-mixed polish is a bit harder to work with than home-mixed from flakes, too.
No offence taken Ian. :2tsup: However we're talking White Shellac (dewaxed) here and there is a reason why it is premixed. White shellac has to be kept at a constant 8C or below in its raw state. That's why we won't supply it raw to distributors or customers.

That and the fact that almost all our white shellac is reserved for making our friction polishes. if you happen to see white shellac in its raw state for sale in a shop think twice before purchasing. It only needs a few hot Melbourne days and it could be ruined. It won't properly dissolve and will need to be strained really well before use as what's left undissolved will ruin the finish.

I have seen supposed experts on YouTube showing how to remove the solid bits from freshly dissolved white shellac. Saying this is common and won't have any affect on the shellac.

Rubbish... it's been stored wrong, is heat affected and shouldn't have been sold to you. You dumb YouTube guru.:~

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

.........I'm not sure what the wood is, but definitely not Qld Maple. It is an antique made in Indiana USA, so it will be a local wood over there. It was previously polished, and after scraping the old finish off, the wood was super smooth with hardly any open grain. Most of the piece is black walnut.

---

Ha, provenence is everything! I just looked at the thumbnails and thought, "OP in Brisbane; looks like Qld maple; that must be it". It always pays to look at the full-sized pic! I'd bet London to a brick it's Maple (Acer sp.). Probably one of the "soft" maples, they can be very hard to tell apart by appearance.

So now you know why they call it "Qld maple" - it's very similar on a casual look, but much coarser-grained & I've not seen those fine brown lines through it like you get in "real" maples...
Cheers,

Neil thanks for your detailed reply. I've been doing more polishing today, and it's going much better, thanks to all the advice. I'm leaving longer between passes, and working in small sessions. As you said, I'm finding I can go over the same drawer a couple of times before I have to move onto the next drawer. I can rotate through all six drawers quite a few times before taking a break. I'm getting a feel for how far I can go before problems arise.

@IanW, the scraper worked a treat, but only on flat surfaces. I might also try a wet sand tomorrow. I was wondering about detergent vs turps, but it sounds like they both work. Hey, interesting story, I was polishing a few days back, and wondering why it was coming out really streaky and like white smoke on the finish...turns out I had accidentally diluted one batch with turps instead of metho! The turps is now on the other side of my workshop.

Anyway, I did have good success today, and it's building up to a much better finish now, albeit slowly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ubeaut

100% IMS (Ethanol) is preferable to 95% and usually available at any half decent paint shop but often only in 4 lt tins

---

I'll call some local paint shops to see what I can get tomorrow. If I have to buy 4L, so be it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ubeaut

Best starting point is to take some out of the bottle and mix it with equal parts IMS. You can also cut some of that mix 50/50 with IMS for use later on in the polishing process.

---

Yes, I've been adding extra spirits directly to the pad to dilute the mix. I will mix some up to your ratios tomorrow, because I agree and think it will work well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ubeaut

I'm using 100% cotton wadding for the pad, If it's white wadding where the hell did you get it.

---

Yes, it's white. My local spotlight has rolls of it. I'll also head back sometime and get some linen, as everyone seems to recommend this.

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

......@IanW, the scraper worked a treat, but only on flat surfaces. I might also try a wet sand tomorrow. I was wondering about detergent vs turps, but it sounds like they both work..

---

Oooh yeah, I definitely meant using the scraper on the flat parts, it would be a bit savage on curves, but I do use the scraper corners (carefully) to smooth any buildup on inside corners. Curves & mouldings sort the men from the boys when it comes to polishing, they are much more of a challenge to get perfect. I'm still a boy in that regard. :U

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

......Anyway, I did have good success today, and it's building up to a much better finish now, albeit slowly..... .

---

Slowly is the essence of french polishing. The way I think of it is that we are applying such ultra-thin coats on each pass that any imperfections are very, very minor, and cancel out as you proceed with more. "Speed" comes with being able to judge how soon you can rub over again, but unless it's your living, or you are working to a deadline, it's far better for the occasional polisher to take it very steadily. The job goes more smoothly & the end result is usually better too. I don't always heed my own advice, of course, there always seems to be some sort of deadline... :U

Linen is what the old books always recommend for wrapping the rubber. I've certainly found that it's better than cotton in that it's tougher & takes longer to wear through to the point where little dags of wadding start getting through & sticking on the surface (which occasionally happens even though I watch the thing carefully!). But last time I tried to buy some linen cloth, all I could get was coarse-woven stuff that wasn't at all suitable. So mostly I use good-quality cotton & double it over.

A useful trick I picked up from another old bloke was to keep a spray bottle of metho on the bench. After the initial filling coats are done & I'm starting to get some build, I rub over a section with the shellac-charged rubber, and as it gets dry & starting to grip a bit, give the rubber a quick spray (just enough to barely dampen it, it should certainly not feel wet) & go over again. This helps keeps the surface more even as you go It needs to be done with care, if you wet the rubber too much it's likely to dissolve the fresh shellac & make a big mess, but once you learn to judge it, it's a very useful technique, it keeps the surface smoother & reduces the amount of work at the end "spiriting off" to get that perfect glassy finish.

You seem to be getting the hang of it pretty quickly, french-polishing isn't the easiest finish to do well, and I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but there's no mystique to it - when things go wrong there's usually a pretty simple explanation....
:)
Cheers,

I just had a thought on Linen.

I used to do a bit of cross stitch (it was a phase) and the material used is Linen.... as in "made from Flax" proper linen.

This probably makes it a bit easier to obtain knowing this.

For example: Pottery Linen Cloth Clay Burlap DIY Pottery Ceramics Clay Craft Pad Cloth P O8Z6 4894890002840 | eBay and Pure Linen - Ivory - 140cm
– Super Cheap Fabrics


edit - the history and manufacture of real linen is fascinating: Linen - Wikipedia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by woodPixel

I used to do a bit of cross stitch (it was a phase)

---

Hey, it's all cool - no judgments here. :) Thanks for the info.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

Hey, it's all cool - no judgments here. :) Thanks for the info.

---

:) I became fascinated with fabrics, manufactory and textiles for a bit (especially the machinery and mechanisms). I enjoyed studying how Persian carpets are made (they use a CARTOON for the pattern). This then lead to surface embellishment and thence cross-stitch.

It was all very nerdy. I did dinosaurs, video game montages (like early 8-bit cassette games and arcade games) and tech inspired work (8086 intel CPU circuits and logic diagrams).

The kids absolutely loved them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ubeaut

No offence taken Ian. :2tsup:However we're talking White Shellac (dewaxed) here and there is a reason why it is premixed. White shellac has to be kept at a constant 8C or below in its raw state. That's why we won't supply it raw to distributors or customers.

---

So I should be storing my dewaxed super blonde shellac flakes in the fridge? Or is white shellac different to blonde?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jack620

So I should be storing my dewaxed super blonde shellac flakes in the fridge? Or is white shellac different to blonde?

---

Have to refer that one to Neil, Jack. I do know blonde shellac has a much shorter shelf-life than orange flakes. I've kept orange flakes for several years without problems (in a plastic bag inside an air-tight tin). However, there is definitely a limit, a couple of weeks ago I pulled out some flakes that have been around for about 10 years & made up a ~2lb cut. About 1/3rd of the shellac dissolved after several days, which I think Neil will tell me is a very good indication that my flakes are cactus (unless there is some secret way of reviving them!).

It seems counter-intuitive that "dry" flakes kept in an airtight container could undergo chemical change (though maybe it wasn't quite as air tight as I thought). I don't understand the chemisrty of it, but all the books say it does deteriorate, & the bottle of glug still sitting on the end of my bench seems to indicate they are right! .. :U

WP, the sort of linen my better half uses for cross-stitch & needlework is much too open-weave to make wrappers for polishing rubbers - maybe you were using a much denser weave? You can probably buy suitable stuff if you go to one of the big chains that sell fabric, fashions come & go & at the time I was talking about, the more open style was in fashion. I've got some cotton cloth atm - some bits of (new) reject shirts that the women in LOML's club re-purposed to make stuff for a charity. It's pretty good stuff & wears well & I got enough of the scraps to keep me in rubbers for a few more years. But next time I have to tag along when the other half goes to 'Spotlight', I'll have a good scratch around & see what they've got....
Cheers,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jack620

https://www.woodworkforums.com/image...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ubeaut https://www.woodworkforums.com/image...post-right.png

No offence taken Ian. :2tsup:However we're talking White Shellac (dewaxed) here and there is a reason why it is premixed. White shellac has to be kept at a constant 8C or below in its raw state. That's why we won't supply it raw to distributors or customers.



So I should be storing my dewaxed super blonde shellac flakes in the fridge? Or is white shellac different to blonde?

---

White shellac is different to almost all others. It is either a powder or fine granules. When the white shellac (waxy and dewaxed) get heat effected, it can lose a fair amount of its goodness. The powder can block, and, in that case it needs to be literally ground back down to a powder before it can be used or it won't disolve. Even if not blocked the liquid needs to be strained and if there is more than a tablespoon spoon of solids in a gallon (imperial 4.5lt, US 3.8lt give or take a little in both) of shellac, it has lost an good amount of its guts.

We had some heat effected stuff once, a few years ago and in a 25kg bag of shellac which is added to 80 liters of Ethanol we were losing around 1kg of solids which definitely isn't good.

Anyway... back to jack620's question above.

Flake shellac, waxy or dewaxed, super blond or golden, ruby or garnet do not need refrigeration. Neither does button shellac. However by the same token, I wouldn't be leaving any of those out in the sun for days on end or storing it in a shed that gets to 40C+ on a regular basis. Keep it all in a cool place away from direct heat and sunlight.

WARNING - do not store any shellac in tin containers weather solid or in liquid form. Unless you want it to go black.

We had a 25 litre cube of golden shellac go as black as the ace of spades in a couple of weeks because a nut and bolt had found their way into the drum. The shellac was useless and so was the nut and bolt which were thick with rust.

For what it's worth. We have a 20ft refrigerated shipping container in which we store all our shellac and other products. unit can go down to 3c but mostly set to turn on at 13c and cool down to 6c. Brilliant on a stinkin' hot day. :cold:

Cheers :U

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ubeaut

Keep it all in a cool place away from direct heat and sunlight.

---

Thanks. That's what I've been doing. :2tsup:

Anyone got a favourite source for darker shellac flakes? Or should I just add a drop of alcohol stain to the orange flakes that I can get easily?

You might find this video interesting, it explains how pumice works when used to fill the grain. How to fill the grain using pumice powder before French polish your guitar. - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

Anyone got a favourite source for darker shellac flakes? Or should I just add a drop of alcohol stain to the orange flakes that I can get easily?

---

I've never tried colouring shellac, SD, I think that's another question for Neil to address... :)

I presume you want the colour in the finish rather than in the wood (otherwise you'd just pre-stain the wood)? The old bloke who I worked with a bit used to use button lac to give things an 'old' look. It's a bit more faffing about than using fresh orange flakes, takes longer to dissolve & is full of extraneous stuff so has to be strained before you can use it. Personally, I don't like the finish it gives, it looks a bit "muddy" to me, but obviously there are those as does like it...

Cheers,

In this video at around the 42 minute mark it talks about adding colour to shellac Finishing Seminar with Peter Gedrys - YouTube

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanW

I presume you want the colour in the finish rather than in the wood (otherwise you'd just pre-stain the wood)?

---

Normally I would absolutely stain the wood, and I generally don't like coloured finishes. The colour sitting on top doesn't look the same, and if the finish is not consistent thickness, then the colour is not consistent. I guess I'm just a little scared about staining the wood, as it's an antique, and I don't like the idea of doing something that's not reversible. I'll experiment with scraps first and see how it goes.

I hear you bro. - staining is definitely not my bag! I have a big handicap to start with (I'm colour-blind), but even when I conscript the acutely-colour-sighted (= any of the females in your life) to help, I'm never happy with the result. Stains just kill the wood to my eye, which is far more attuned to texture & depth & shades than actual colour. I know experts can do an amazing job of blending repairs & making them look the part, but most still stand out to me because of subtle changes of texture or depth.

So I can fully appreciate your wanting to be ultra careful & not do anything that can't be reversed; that would be my approach too. My preferred way with a repair on an old piece is to carefully match both wood & finish and let time blend in the new work. If the entire section, or the whole piece needs re-finishing, often as not the repair will disappear almost completely after a few months. However, there are exceptions, unfortunately, where the new wood just doesn't play ball when you apply the finish & decides to go a completely different shade from the wood around it! I've had that happen more than once! :~

So yes indeed, if it's a valuable piece & you want to preserve your reputation, prepare several test pieces and try various treatments until you are satisfied you have it nailed...
Cheers,

Niels post about the White shellac is great . I never knew that . I knew it went off. Ive had such stuff not dissolving . Didnt consider re grinding it though . I just though White was Blonde as well and called them both Blonde. Or I also knew white as Bleached shellac to but I just called it Blonde.


Any way with White or Blonde I like adding some flake or Button if I want (1) a richer colour and (2) for a better working light coloured shellac . I believe just White or Blonde by itself doesnt work as well under the rubber on the job when a lot of bodying is required. It seems a little easier to frizzle up a bit more easy when your bodying . I do use it straight as well on jobs and its good though .
A bit of flake or button added seems to strengthen it up a bit and not change the colour on the job to much.

With woods like Mahogany or Walnut that doesnt matter much and I use a much stronger mix on the flake or button side . !00 % Flake or button on some Mahogany jobs. If I was polishing Rock Maple from the US I would have the no 2 mix. light as possible or slightly warmed up. Otherwise the orange of the flake or button throws the Maple colour . Same when polishing light white pines . Yellow or orange pine from strong Flake or one of the Button types of shellac looks awful.

As for colouring shellac . That's usually for matching or fine adjusting already stained in the right direction boards . Or shifting whole pieces warmer or colder. Or touching out repairs like patches or filler where its used quite strong . oxides mixed with spirit colours then applied.

And I read before about cutting back between coats . I have always used an Oil and turps mix . The pro polishers used it . When your doing a lot of cutting back its faster and keeps the paper free from clogging . One piece of folded paper lasts a long time .
For flat finishing, paper cuts things flatter . Steel wool doesn't .

Flake Button or Blonde can be had here.
Graeme Brown Antiques

Attachment 507783 Attachment 507784 Attachment 507785


Here's some Mahogany I polished some time back.
The shellac in the tub is all Flake or Button . This was bodying up and filling grain with pumice.
Three of those leaves on the right are replacements. New Fiji plantation Mahogany matched to solid Cuban Mahogany table from the 1860s roughly . light as a feather compared to the old ones. The match was perfect though . Some of that Fiji stuff is very good.

Attachment 507786 Attachment 507787


Below is staining the three new leaves to match the old. The Old is second in from the right. And one new leaf is remaining to be treated with Potassium dichromate, as the two on the left have just been . The stuff is legendary in Mahogany or Red Cedar work but very toxic apparently. I'm not saying use the stuff.
Its just Me showing off. If I'm going to show a bit of that job I will show the best bits as well .

The staining on jobs like this could be attempted with out of the can stuff, then shellac with spirit colours mixed in could be used to fine tune . It wouldn't have been anywhere near as good.
When I was doing this if I found the leaves were going to Red then I could adjust to the brown side with shellac mixed with Black and green added, used on the rubber. This will swing the colour as the polish is nearing completion . It still needs clear body's on top though to seal it in . The trick is always staying just under the lighter side when colouring and fine tuning as it goes when the colour job is critical . Like when you have a nutty decorator telling you the Exact colour she wants and its a only thousandth off :rolleyes:.
Attachment 507788 Attachment 507789

While I'm at it . Here's a job I made and keeping the light pine look was uppermost . It was bleached after finishing the build first. And Blonde was used. I do use straight blonde with no probs but a bit of the more orange shellacs can be used in the mix and with a careful eye kept on the colour they don't show if thin enough. Just straight blonde could be to cold and the slightest warmth to it looks good.

Attachment 507790 Attachment 507791

Rob

@Rob, Nice work!

I called five professional paint stores, and quite a few cleaning products distributors. None of them had ever heard of industrial methylated spirits, and just had the normal 95% stuff. I've just ordered some online from Sydney, so it should be here in a couple of days. :) I'll be interested to see whether it makes much difference from 95% in terms of drying times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanW

I've never tried colouring shellac, SD, I think that's another question for Neil to address... :)

I presume you want the colour in the finish rather than in the wood (otherwise you'd just pre-stain the wood)? The old bloke who I worked with a bit used to use button lac to give things an 'old' look. It's a bit more faffing about than using fresh orange flakes, takes longer to dissolve & is full of extraneous stuff so has to be strained before you can use it. Personally, I don't like the finish it gives, it looks a bit "muddy" to me, but obviously there are those as does like it...

Cheers,

---

I have used a lot of coloured shellac for decorative finishes the coloured shellac is made by adding universal tint to the shellac. Universal tint is the stuff they use in paint shops to tint paint with. It comes in a myriad of colours and if you go to Bunnies and ask for a sample or two they will usually give you some in a small container.

Below 3 decorative finishes using universal tinted shellac over a PVA gesso mix.
stippled - Centre: Brush Roll - Right: cling wrap.
Attachment 507807 Attachment 507808 Attachment 507809

However universal tint isn't really ideal for doing what you want, which is basically colour matching and is an art in itself and not something to try without a lot of practise even the big finishing establishments of long ago had colour matchers that were basically the guru's and hid their matching methods/formulae from the polishers.

Much safer and easier in the long run for novice polishers to stain the wood rather than colour the shellac. In many instances antiques were (when they were new, or a future antique) were died with chemical dyes and mordants. Mahogany and oak being two that were most often chemically dyed. A mix of potassium bichromate (carcinogenic) and hot water (don't inhale the fumes) washed over mahogany gave the timber the deep rick colour associated with Empire furniture. Same mix over Oak gave a deep rich brown.

Worked brilliantly with all tannin rich woods. Can even be done on woods that are almost devoid of tannin like pine. Soak a heap of teabags in boiling water and let them steep until cold then chuck 'em in the bin. Wipe the cold tea over the wood allow to dry then apply the potassium bichromate and hey presto you've got walnut well pine that sorta looks the goods.
Attachment 507810
Above 2 bowls dyed with water dye and finished with Shellawax friction polish
Left Eucalyptus Right Birdseye Maple

Water Dyes are great under shellac, and my 1st preference mainly because they let the grain be the star. (More water dye selections at bottom of post)
Black japan watered down works well also but it can also be a handful if you're not really sure what you're doing. I used to get some of the tar, used for patching roads from the back of the council truck and add turpentine to get the thickness and colour I was after. Great for light golden walnut colour through to almost black.

Anyway, before you stain any antique... If it's marked up but the surface is in reasonably good nick. Not crazed or flaking off, etc I would try Polish Reviver which can get rid of old build-ups of wax, oil, Mr Sheen, Marveer and almost any other thing ever used on it and restore the piece to almost the original finish. Along the way it will get rid of damage from Alcohol, water, heat, smoke from open fires and the same from cigarettes, etc. It's not a miracle but pretty close.

If the old finish is in really bad repair don't muck around scraping or sanding get some paint stripper and remove the finish from the piece. Once you're done with the stripping etc then give the surface a wipe over with metho and you might be surprised at the colour and not want or need to add any colour to the piece at all. Maybe it could need some orange shellac rather than white (bleached) after all that's possibly what it was originally finished with when it was born.

Water Dyes: Our water dyes are mainly for small use like and with the intention of being used under our friction polishes. They are only sold in small 50ml batches and can be used to match some timber colours. Biggest things I know of, being died with ours are a number of guitars with sunburst patterns.

However, larger areas can be water dyed using other water dyes. All fabric dyes are fine for use under shellac have a look on line and you should find a number of different ones.

Go to Spotlight or similar where they have hobby stuff and have a look at their Dylon Fabric Dyes or RIT fabric dye or Rit Dye More Synthetic These dyes are basically for dying fabric but they work a treat on wood, are on the whole cheaper than ours are in bigger bottles and are more light resistant especially the Rit dye more synthetic.

Do a Google search for wood dye colours and you'll come up with heaps of them, both liquid and powdered to mix your own.

The last word(s): You can also use stains under shellac but be wary of what you use. Ideally you should use water or turpentine based stains because the shellac isn't compatible with then and will not pull them off the surface. Alcohol stains on the other hand can, on many woods be pulled of almost completely into the rubber because of the alcohol in the shellac.

Water and turps based stains can be watered down to give a translucent coat rather than look like paint which it sorta is... almost. This will let the grain show through rather than being blanketed beneath the stain. Won't be the star like water dye will make it but will be better than full strength stain.

Hope this has been of some information or interest. If you were interested but fell asleep during the reading of this tome, try to remember where you left off and start from there.

Apologies for any blatant adverts something may have slipped in whilst I was typing. :dunno:
It was probably accidental. :;

Cheers - Neil :U

Neil, you are a veritable encyclopedia of helpful information. :) I will aim to absorb as much of this info as I can. Thank you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ubeaut

You can also use stains under shellac but be wary of what you use. Ideally you should use water or turpentine based stains because the shellac isn't compatible with then and will not pull them off the surface. Alcohol stains on the other hand can, on many woods be pulled of almost completely into the rubber because of the alcohol in the shellac.

---

I've had success with these under shellac: Feast Watson 50ml Cedar Prooftint Interior Stain - Bunnings Australia

I have a good selection of them. The colours are very strong. I recommend thining, as Neil suggests, with the FW reducer. I wouldn't use the cedar colour on its own. It's bright red and nothing like cedar! Good for adding a red tint to other stains though. The golden teak is very yellow which also makes it good for adjusting other stains.

WARNING - Funny, but sad and shocking info.

We have a Cedar colour in our dyes and it is almost impossible to tell it from real cedar even on pine.

Some thirty years ago in one of my weekend restoration classes a woman had a chiffonier with a massive split down one side. I got her to fill it with a piece of cedar I had. She cut it to the shape but had trouble fitting it in so got to it with a spokeshave until it fitted reasonably well in the cavernous crack.

Because of the somewhat dicky spoke shave work there were still a few gaps that needed to be filled, so we made a gesso with hide glue and talc and mixed in some cedar stain until it matched the real wood colour. The filling was done it dried perfectly and was sanded down ready to start polishing the next morning. It looked that good that it was impossible to tell the gesso filler from the real wood.

Well unbeknown to me our cedar water dye was allergic to the hide glue and had a rather weird reaction. When we arrived the next morning the beautifully filled, matching cedar, gesso, had over-night turned an eye-popping, vivid lime green colour. :o :C :no: :~ :B

All we could do was to get a carving knife and cut some of the top section of the fill out and refill it with another filler which we eventually stained again with the cedar and it matched in but wasn't quite as nice looking as it was the night before.

That was some good strong gesso too, took a couple of hours and a few sharpens of the knife to clean it all up.

We live and learn, eh.

Cheers - Neil :U

PS Never used Feast Watsons Proof Tint but have heard good things about it.

I'm certainly getting better results than before, but still not getting a glass smooth finish. It almost looks like it should be glass smooth, but there is something on the surface that's leaving smear marks that dry on the finish while I'm working. It never looks glossy while I'm working.

But overall, getting very smooth. Here's a photo...
Attachment 508786
Anyway, I'm just going to get a good polish for finishing. Is it better to use tripoli powder or EEE shine as a final finish? I'm not a big fan of wax as a final finish, because it doesn't feel smooth, so I'm thinking maybe tripoli powder mixed with oil. Any thoughts or other recommendations?

Smear marks in the sort of weather we're experiencing atm could be "blooming" due to humidity. If that's the case, they should disappear, or largely disappear after a while (possibly a few hours when humidity is as high as it's been lately). If the smears persist, then I'd be thinking oil (can't remember if you said you are using a dab of oil on your rubber, but that's the most common source). You get rid of that in the "spiriting off" step. Again, I can't remember if that's been covered already, but briefly, you let the shellac harden up for 3 or 4 days after the last "coat", then make up a fresh rubber. Just barely damp the wadding with meths (the rubber should definitely not feel wet). Then rub away as if still building polish - you should be able to rub the same piece almost indefinitely, because there is so little alcohol in the rubber it only takes molecules off the surface & shouldn't grab. It's an exceedingly slow process, but f you are persistent enough, you will end up with a perfect high-gloss surface (& an aching elbow if it's a large piece!). Any oil that was smeared on the surface will be picked up quite quickly in the rubber & is usually no further bother, but if there's a lot of oil you may need to make a fresh clean rubber after you get the bulk off.

If the smears are due to neither of those causes, then I've run out of suggestions.... :)
Cheers,



Cheers,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

, but there is something on the surface that's leaving smear marks that dry on the finish while I'm working. It never looks glossy while I'm working.

---

If its fine lines your seeing, like I can see in the bottom picture. Lines that follow the rubber direction.

Fine lines left in the shine when finishing off are usually because the shellac is to thick. Get the mix your using and try diluting it down in another tub. 20% what you have been using and 80% the rest metho. Its pretty incredible how thin it ends up being . Its still working though . I get an idea of its strength and if its enough shellac in the mix by passing the rubber over the back of my left hand and then putting it to my lips as it dries off. Even when very thin I can feel the tackiness of the shellac drying by touching my lips to it, moving them left to right. Or You can see the shine left when its dried off.

Perfect call Robert. I reckon you hit the nail right on the head. :2tsup:

Hi Robert, Yes, I know the lines you are talking about from too much shellac, and I certainly had this issue when I was building up the early layers, and yes, there are some of these lines visible on the bottom drawer in the photo. But after cutting back on the shellac, and even doing several sessions with almost no shellac, just IMS, the surface is pretty smooth, but these other lines are still there. I feel like they are coming from the oil, so I'll give it a couple of days to harden up and then spirit off and polish.

Any recommendations for which polish to use? Tripoli powder vs EEE? I tried Scratch-X, which is a car polish, and it sometimes gave good results, but did seem to react with the shellac. I put a blob on the surface for a few minutes, and wiped it off, and it did leave a mark. It might be OK after the shellac has had a few days to toughen up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surfdabbler

Any recommendations for which polish to use? Tripoli powder vs EEE? I tried Scratch-X, which is a car polish, and it sometimes gave good results, but did seem to react with the shellac. I put a blob on the surface for a few minutes, and wiped it off, and it did leave a mark. It might be OK after the shellac has had a few days to toughen up.

---

I cant recommend those ways . If you are happy with then then go for it. I just finish off with a rubber and a metho shellac mix taking off the oil. Sometimes I dull with Liberon 0000 wool and wax .