What's your take on asbestos

I was wondering whether people find asbestos to be a deal breaker.

It doesn't bother me and I'm ok with living with it and working with it but I'm not sure of the general public. I have a place that I'm going to renovate and it has asbestos... I have to consider future options and one is selling some years down the track or just dying in the place... I also have two ways to approach it: Board over it or remove it. Removal is about 80k plus reboard, so about 110k. Board over is about 30k. I have to ask myself the question: Will I get a return on investment if I go the removal route though. Or, are people in general not that fussed about it, and won't mind if I entomb it behind 10mm of gyprock or vj panel instead.

What say you.

Removal is $80k??
It must be the whole roof and external walls too?
That’s a lot of money, I’ve stripped entire houses and disposed of them for less than half of that.
If you are handy, look into doing the course to get your own ticket, then you can train a couple of guys up, and do it yourself, legally. Then shop around for prices for bins, or buy a decent caged trailer with a cover and do it all yourself. Have to cost less than 80k, surely.

Asbestos removal "specialists", like (sadly) many tradies, jack their prices up because people have no choice and must use a "qualified professional". This is especially annoying when you see the lousy jobs some (but by no means all) "qualified professionals" actually do. I fully understand, and agree with, many of the rules to ensure jobs are done safely, but when a tradesman adds an extra zero to the price because he's the only ticketed person in the area, that's just wrong.

I agree with Riverbuilder, do the course and get a ticket to do it yourself. We have a guy locally who did exactly that - he was quoted a ridiculous price a few years ago for asbestos removal, investigated the options and discovered he could get a ticket himself. He ended up doing the entire job himself (legally and correctly) for a fraction of the quoted price.

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Originally Posted by riverbuilder

Removal is $80k??
It must be the whole roof and external walls too?
That’s a lot of money, I’ve stripped entire houses and disposed of them for less than half of that.
If you are handy, look into doing the course to get your own ticket, then you can train a couple of guys up, and do it yourself, legally. Then shop around for prices for bins, or buy a decent caged trailer with a cover and do it all yourself. Have to cost less than 80k, surely.

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Originally Posted by Warb

Asbestos removal "specialists", like (sadly) many tradies, jack their prices up because people have no choice and must use a "qualified professional". This is especially annoying when you see the lousy jobs some (but by no means all) "qualified professionals" actually do. I fully understand, and agree with, many of the rules to ensure jobs are done safely, but when a tradesman adds an extra zero to the price because he's the only ticketed person in the area, that's just wrong.

I agree with Riverbuilder, do the course and get a ticket to do it yourself. We have a guy locally who did exactly that - he was quoted a ridiculous price a few years ago for asbestos removal, investigated the options and discovered he could get a ticket himself. He ended up doing the entire job himself (legally and correctly) for a fraction of the quoted price.

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Hi

Thx for the answers, but that wasn't what I was asking. I was looking at resale on a house with asbestos that is well contained and controlled or without asbestos altogehter and whether buyers really care.

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Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

Hi

Thx for the answers, but that wasn't what I was asking. I was looking at resale on a house with asbestos that is well contained and controlled or without asbestos altogehter and whether buyers really care.

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Some buyers will care, some won't. It's like gluten, meat and everything else - some people get caught up in every "trend" whilst others will do what they've always done. I sold a house in Sydney many years ago for my "after renovation" asking price when I'd not even started the reno's - it wasn't even officially on the market but someone wanted it really badly and told me to down tools and they'd take it "as is". Similar thing on another house that had no council completion certificate etc., one prospective buyer insisted they needed all the paperwork whilst another just paid the price (the first buyer wasn't impressed, but they were warned and all's fair in love and property sales!). Equally, I know of a family who were almost on the point of signing contracts on a small ("lifestyle") farm, offer accepted, the whole deal done, and then discovered there was a wind farm planned on the next range of hills. They instantly pulled their offer and ran!

I suspect the main problem is that even those that don't care about asbestos will still regard it as a way to knock down the asking price (and then quite possibly remove the asbestos and make a profit).

Overall, my experience has been that most people care to a degree, but more importantly anything that CAN be used as a bargaining chip WILL be used as one. So the price is likely to be lower, and some percentage of buyers WILL be put off which narrows the market and lowers the price even more. I guess that's why I (and perhaps Riverbuilder) answered with something along the lines of "buy it cheap because it's got asbestos, then get the asbestos removed in the most cost efficient way and sell it for a higher price".....

Lastly, remember that the laws can and do change. You might buy it now and in five years some politician decides that "no building may be sold with asbestos in it"...........

It's kinda timely that I received the news this morning of the death of a friend who had mesothelioma. After battling with it for years he died in the early hours of the morning while 6 paramedics from 2 ambulances tried to revive him. For the last couple of years he towed an Oxygen bottle around and for the last 6 months or so got totally out of breath just getting out of Bed to go sit in front of the TV. His exposure was largely while working as a motor vehicle brake repairer in the 1970's.

Fear over asbestos is not like gluten or a trend. It's bloody rational.

Very small amount of exposure to broken asbestos / asbestos dust can kill you years later.

Unbroken / undisturbed asbestos is ok.

I wouldn't buy a house with asbestos. At some point I'm likely to be repairing or drilling holes.

I wouldn't live in a house with any amount of asbestos in it. Period!

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Originally Posted by pippin88

Fear over asbestos is not like gluten or a trend. It's bloody rational.

Very small amount of exposure to broken asbestos / asbestos dust can kill you years later.

Unbroken / undisturbed asbestos is ok.

I wouldn't buy a house with asbestos. At some point I'm likely to be repairing or drilling holes.

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It depends how you regard "fear", I guess. Most things can kill you, if used incorrectly or without care. There are millions of people who, knowingly or otherwise, live, work, shop, and eat in buildings containing asbestos. There is zero risk involved unless, as you say, the asbestos is released as a dust and inhaled. If you need to drill in to asbestos there are accepted practices for doing this safely. My farm has an old irrigation system that comprises kilometers of "concrete" pipes, that I have been told (and am perfectly willing to believe) contain asbestos, but it doesn't worry me in the slightest - there are a great many things in my everyday life that are far more likely to kill or injure me!

When I mentioned "trends", I was simply suggesting that people have different reactions to situations. Take Covid as an example. A few people around here are still wearing masks, even when alone in their cars (I'm in rural NSW and we haven't seen a single case in my area). Others are hugging and (greeting) kissing "friends" they haven't seen in years..... "Fear" is designed to make us aware of a problem and guide us on a sensible path to avoid danger. The choice of path is up to the individual!

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Originally Posted by Warb

It depends how you regard "fear", I guess. Most things can kill you, if used incorrectly or without care.

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From a past post of mine

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More than 15 years ago when the 12m long back fence (timber frame and asbestos sheet) blew down during storm so I discussed this with the prickly bastard neighbour. I got a couple of quotes for a new fence including the removal of the old one but they wanted over $500 to remove the old fence so I said I would do the disposal as long as the neighbour paid for half the costs. I carefully double wrapped each sheet and carted them the 30 km to the asbestos waste disposal place in Kwinana where they weighed the van and then I followed a VERY dusty track up onto an asbestos hill about 100m high where there were heaps of mostly unwrapped asbestos pieces just laying around and a D9 dozer running back and forth over the piles crushing them down. I held my breath dumped my sheets and ran for it.

BTW the wrapping plastic and gaffer tape cost about $60 and the disposal fee was $45, and although the mongrel neighbour paid for half the replacement fence he never paid for half the disposal cost of the old fence.

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Asbestos was a big thing here in Canberra.

There was an insulation installer called Mr Fluffy that literally pumped that crap into the roof cavities of peoples houses.

Well, it became a Bit Of An Issue.

Every Mr Fluffy house was involuntarily purchased by the government and bulldozed at fantastic taxpayer expense. The remnant block was then certified safe and auctioned off. I think people were still wary after that. Some blocks took a long time to sell.

Trav on the forum bought a "Mr Fluffy block" and built his Forever Home. Seems pretty chuffed with it all.

My loving mother sold her house recently. Selling without removing the asbestos sheeting under the eaves seemed to be critical for the sale. I remember the whole job costing $15k... removal of 20-odd sheets, a bit of TLC and replace with something else. Canberra buyers may be more finicky though... they think in a more....hmmm, "Neo Communist" fashion.


On BobLs viewing of a D9 rampaging on the Piles of Death, I've seen this myself too. The rank hypocrisy of it was foul.


I've no direct info on the sunk-investment of do now, or later, on potential selling price. However, I lived in the lower north shore of Sydney for 20 years and asbestos was in bloody everything, walls, sheds, old out houses, in the dirt (as chunks! This was Mosman mind you) even as fill in the friggin driveways. It didn't seem to affect price. People dealt with it as part of the reno, as needed, and otherwise just covered it over to make it safe.

I lived in a fibro house built in the mid 1940's for thirty years and my parents for many more years and as far as I can tell if it isn't disturbed then the risk seems low as none of us have been affected. Before we sold it the corrugated roof on the garage was broken and the strands of asbestos could be seen in the break but none of this affected the sale. That house was only demolished last year and none of the new residents show any health effects so far but never say never.

We had exactly this dilemma when doing up a house back in 2011. After a couple of talks with real estate people we decided to go full removal rather than just cover. The real estate people reckon that it is a time bomb and that some time in the future you may have to have a house certified asbestos free before you sell.

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Originally Posted by Warb

Some buyers will care, some won't. It's like gluten, meat and everything else - some people get caught up in every "trend" whilst others will do what they've always done. I sold a house in Sydney many years ago for my "after renovation" asking price when I'd not even started the reno's - it wasn't even officially on the market but someone wanted it really badly and told me to down tools and they'd take it "as is". Similar thing on another house that had no council completion certificate etc., one prospective buyer insisted they needed all the paperwork whilst another just paid the price (the first buyer wasn't impressed, but they were warned and all's fair in love and property sales!). Equally, I know of a family who were almost on the point of signing contracts on a small ("lifestyle") farm, offer accepted, the whole deal done, and then discovered there was a wind farm planned on the next range of hills. They instantly pulled their offer and ran!

I suspect the main problem is that even those that don't care about asbestos will still regard it as a way to knock down the asking price (and then quite possibly remove the asbestos and make a profit).

Overall, my experience has been that most people care to a degree, but more importantly anything that CAN be used as a bargaining chip WILL be used as one. So the price is likely to be lower, and some percentage of buyers WILL be put off which narrows the market and lowers the price even more. I guess that's why I (and perhaps Riverbuilder) answered with something along the lines of "buy it cheap because it's got asbestos, then get the asbestos removed in the most cost efficient way and sell it for a higher price".....

Lastly, remember that the laws can and do change. You might buy it now and in five years some politician decides that "no building may be sold with asbestos in it"...........

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Ya asbestos reactions vary wildly from indiference to paranoia. I personally don't care about it but I have met people that thought it was like a gas and could travel through the walls and instantly kill you with a single strand. I'm wanting to gauge how society feels in general, and if that's changing.

I doubt the laws in the states or by the feds will change in the next 10 years. It would guarantee their loss in the next election. I've seen estimates of 30 to 50% of buildings contain asbestos. That's a lot of voters who would be hit with large financial burdens that I doubt would forget anytime soon... It's kinda like the argument that the government needs to drive down house prices so the youngins can afford to buy one. There'd be milllions of off home owners and investors just waiting to vote them out at the first chance.

The bargening of house prices based upon asbestos are all relative. I wouldn't buy a house with asbestos at full market value and wouldn't expect it to sell at that either... It's about the turns in societies desires and demands that I'm interested and if at all which way is it leaning. Not an easy thing to find on google.

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Originally Posted by BobL

From a past post of mine

SNIP

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Funny that. Was pulling a bunch of asbestos out of a house and did all the required council handling requierments only to have it uncerimoniously dumped in the tip where a big machine came along and pushed it over the bank and ripped all the plastic off in the process.

Over the years I've noticed that regs and fees have been relaxed on who can handle and dump it. I guess the councils were getting real fed up with all the illegal dumping and burying taking place...

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Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

I doubt the laws in the states or by the feds will change in the next 10 years. It would guarantee their loss in the next election. I've seen estimates of 30 to 50% of buildings contain asbestos. That's a lot of voters who would be hit with large financial burdens that I doubt would forget anytime soon... It's kinda like the argument that the government needs to drive down house prices so the youngins can afford to buy one. There'd be milllions of off home owners and investors just waiting to vote them out at the first chance.

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10 years ago I would have agreed with you, but now I'm not so sure. We currently live in a society that is driven by social media, and where relatively small pressure groups can have huge influence. Such groups are not interested in the truth, they simply push their agenda using whatever methods are available, and very few people know (or possibly even care) of the validity of any claims they make. If it's on the internet "it must be true". When that is added to a situation where politicians are desperate for votes, it's not hard for things to be pushed further than they (possibly) deserve. Case in point, I'm a farmer and I use quad-bikes. They are one of the most useful things ever invented. Unfortunately many people don't understand the inherent dangers of a short/narrow/tall machine, so there are rollovers and people get squashed. A few years ago a company started selling rollover bars for quads, and pushed to have them made compulsory (for those of us who ride "sensibly" they add more danger than they remove, by the way!). They pushed and pushed to have the use of these bars mandated, until finally the big manufacturers simply stopped selling quads in Australia.....

A few idiots with TwitFace accounts can change the world, unfortunately!

I would think that every house built up until the 1970's would have asbestos in it and most built prior to and after the WW2 were totally clad in the stuff with no serious affect on the population in general. I am not defending its use just observing how many houses would have to be basically demolished to get rid of it and the enormity of the task. It had zero effect on the sale price of my parent's home but that might have been because of the water front position and no one demanded a building report that I know of.

Following on from Woodpixel’s post, my home is in an area that was ‘serviced’ By Mr Fluffy. I got a letter in the mail to say my house had to be inspected. It could not be sold until inspected and found free of asbestos. If asbestos was found in the roof, the house would be demolished and the land cleaned. If that was the case, I had the choice of a) being bought out b) being paid a sum to rebuild on the land after it was cleaned.
The inspection was extremely thorough, samples taken to labs and examined, then a detailed report sent to me.

Also, being involved in the automotive trade, every job I’ve been interviewed for has involved lung X-rays and/or lung function tests,

If I had a choice I would not buy a house knowing it had asbestos, as it has been pointed out, there’s every chance you could drill into it etc, when renovating,

The question as to if asbestos would effect the properties value I think would depend on the area you live. If fibro clad homes are commonplace in your area I think it will have little or no impact but may put some people off if is not a common occurrence

It is hard to say what the sentiment will be in years to come but there is now a focus on mould and if the property has been used as an ice lab in the past. In NZ you have to get a clearance certificate for the bank to finance the property so who knows what could develop

The price you have been quoted to remove the asbestos sounds a bit crazy, at those sort of numbers you would have to consider a knock down rebuild. Complete demolition would typically be way more than half that.

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Originally Posted by Warb

10 years ago I would have agreed with you, but now I'm not so sure. We currently live in a society that is driven by social media, and where relatively small pressure groups can have huge influence. Such groups are not interested in the truth, they simply push their agenda using whatever methods are available, and very few people know (or possibly even care) of the validity of any claims they make. If it's on the internet "it must be true". When that is added to a situation where politicians are desperate for votes, it's not hard for things to be pushed further than they (possibly) deserve. Case in point, I'm a farmer and I use quad-bikes. They are one of the most useful things ever invented. Unfortunately many people don't understand the inherent dangers of a short/narrow/tall machine, so there are rollovers and people get squashed. A few years ago a company started selling rollover bars for quads, and pushed to have them made compulsory (for those of us who ride "sensibly" they add more danger than they remove, by the way!). They pushed and pushed to have the use of these bars mandated, until finally the big manufacturers simply stopped selling quads in Australia.....

A few idiots with TwitFace accounts can change the world, unfortunately!

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I think it would be a numbers game. From what I've been able to gleen from various publications, houses with asbostos in them accounts for between 30 and 50% of current stock. Anything built in the 90s or older is assumed to have at least a bathroom/toilet sheeted with asbestos. If you as a pollie tried to force a $15,000 bill onto 30-50% of all the home owners across the country, you might find yourself and your family needing 24 hour protection for the rest of your life. And considering a survey some years back found about 95% of federal pollies owned rental properties I doubt they would be interested in handing themselves a bill.

You on the other hand are quad bike riding farmer and make up a pitence of the population. In other words, you don't matter to a pollie.

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Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

I think it would be a numbers game. From what I've been able to gleen from various publications, houses with asbostos in them accounts for between 30 and 50% of current stock. Anything built in the 90s or older is assumed to have at least a bathroom/toilet sheeted with asbestos. If you as a pollie tried to force a $15,000 bill onto 30-50% of all the home owners across the country, you might find yourself and your family needing 24 hour protection for the rest of your life. And considering a survey some years back found about 95% of federal pollies owned rental properties I doubt they would be interested in handing themselves a bill.

You on the other hand are quad bike riding farmer and make up a pitence of the population. In other words, you don't matter to a pollie.

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Indeed, except that such a move would only apply to people who wanted to sell a house, and a decent scare campaign could convince homebuyers that it was necessary for their health. Even in this thread you'll have seen people who say they wouldn't buy a house with asbestos in it, and asbestos hasn't been front and centre in the news for ages.

Honestly, I can't see it happening either, I just mentioned it as a possibility to consider, but you and I are working from a position of logic whilst politicians and (it often seems to me) the majority of people on social media, frequently don't!!

Some observations first, and make of them what you will:
1. Being realistic, hard (sheet) asbestos is not dangerous until it is turned into powder by a power tool or a 'kenidiot. So boarding over it (which is what we have done in part here) is totally ok as long as you don't hit into it with power tools later. However, all subsequent potential tool users or renovators need to know that there is asbestos that has been covered over.

2. I have only just been through a removal of asbestos from under the kitchen floor covering 2 months ago. That process involved too many 'kenidiots. Frankly, the whole process was a bloody nightmare, and it took six weeks to replace the vinyl floor covering in a 7-8 m² kitchen floor. The first "ticketed" mob were a bunch of knuckle dragging cowboys who were shooed away before they created mayhem. Next guy (a couple of weeks later) appeared to be good, and appeared to know what he was doing. (and a shout out to BobL - thanks to him I knew significantly more about invisible dust than this "ticketed professional".)

Until he left, and 30 minutes later I discovered this throughout every surface in the kitchen:
Attachment 484869

That's the top of the microwave oven which was wiped clean before he started. Apparently his "$3000" vac wasn't in quite the condition he thought. And yes, the dust was grey, and it had taken about 60-90 minutes to settle like that (he informed me that it was a normal amount of normal dust settling in an hour or so due to the house's 100 year age - PFFFFFT - that's about three months worth in the most habituated place - my desk!)

3. The roof here is made from 1 square foot shingles - nice asbestos ones to replace the original slate ones. Absolutely no problem at all.... until we get a massive hail storm, which is becoming increasing likely with climate change. Oh, and no Solar Panel installers will come anywhere near the job, so that rules that out.

4. Knowingly selling a property with boarded over asbestos, without disclosing this fact, would be an act of complete bastardry and will probably become illegal in due course. Note that I am not suggesting that anyone is considering doing that - just saying.

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Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

I was wondering whether people find asbestos to be a deal breaker.

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I wouldn't knowingly buy a property with asbestos in it - you never know how costly it might be to eradicate it - because you probably don't know how extensive it really is, or what has happened before (power tools).

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Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

I also have two ways to approach it: Board over it or remove it. Removal is about 80k plus reboard, so about 110k. Board over is about 30k. I have to ask myself the question: Will I get a return on investment if I go the removal route though. Or, are people in general not that fussed about it, and won't mind if I entomb it behind 10mm of gyprock or vj panel instead.

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It will depend on the particular buyers down the track, but certainly you will squeeze down you potential market from what it might be, and any savvy buyer will not pay what you probably want, so you may suffer a double whammy - less potential market, and at a reduced price.

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Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

...or just dying in the place.

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Have you got a timeline in mind? :D

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

There was an insulation installer called Mr Fluffy that literally pumped that crap into the roof cavities of peoples houses.

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That's the REALLY dangerous friable form of asbestos. The hard sheets are ok until turned into powder by power tools or similar.

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Originally Posted by Chris Parks

That house was only demolished last year and none of the new residents show any health effects so far but never say never.

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No, but it does take 20-30 years for the illness to show up, if it is going to.




The bottom line is whether or not you would get you money back if you cough up the extra $50k. You may be better off dying there, as you suggest, and letting others worry about after that. Just mind you don't hasten the process!