Pandemic Positives - good things to come out of it

Caveat: not looking for this thread to descend to a political or ideological shight fight, nor a tussle about whether or not there has been an overreaction on the part of our various governments, or whether or not any restrictions should ever have been put in place.

Even if you don't know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone with the virus. :;

TOPIC:
In the midst of all the gloom and understandable negativity during the Covid 19 Pandemic, the ingenuity of humanity is producing, and will continue to produce remarkable breakthroughs, changes to lifestyle for the better, and so on.

What have you come across, or what can you think of that could make positive permanent changes to our way of life?

You are welcome to contribute ideas and constructive comments on such matters. Related digressions are ok (just for you Bushmiller :D) but let's stick mainly to the topic eh?
If you want to bitch about something then best start another thread.

The idea for this thread came to me this morning when I read this news article:
Coronavirus pandemic sees Australian manufacturing partnership make cheaper ventilator in four weeks - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

After all the enormous hooha in the USA over ventilators for weeks and weeks, this appears to be a very good-news story indeed. Producing ventilators at 10% of the cost with 10% of the parts, with just a 4 week development period sounds like an astonishing breakthrough. A product of fabulous co-operation between some unlikely actors too.

Mind you, it would seem that not only has our potential need for ventilators passed - in Australia we never had a massive need for them, or much need at all. That's good! We should be able to pass this technology on to countries that are just embarking on their C19 Tour of Duty.

My hope would be that we begin to rethink the whole idea of globalization. Depending on other countries too much for essentials (PPE, ventilators, pharmaceuticals etc.) is giving too many hostages to fortune.
Pete

I wonder. There has never yet been a vaccine made for any Coronavirus (is my understanding), which includes the common cold (NeilS might have access to good info on that). So if a vaccine is invented it may have excellent flow-through benefits for limiting common colds?

I hope that a big positive that comes from this is a realisatjon by people that we can do away with much of the stuff and activity we thought we needed and allow us to make longer term sacrifices, through increased mental resilience, for the benefit of long term environmental sustainability. If we can sacrifice this much for a Virus surely we will be more willing to entertain the idea of giving up more for the sake of our environment - that is 100% guaranteed to end us all if we don't.
I hope it leads to people being more open to living simpler, more local, and sustainable lifestyles.


Cheers, Dom

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Originally Posted by woodhutt

My hope would be that we begin to rethink the whole idea of globalization. Depending on other countries too much for essentials (PPE, ventilators, pharmaceuticals etc.) is giving too many hostages to fortune.
Pete

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Spot on Pete, and I'd be mightily surprised if very hard thinking on that is not already underway. Perhaps in some cases it might lead to a forging of greater bonds and partnerships between very small clusters of countries (ANZ comes immediately to mind)

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Originally Posted by DomAU

I hope that a big positive that comes from this is a realisatjon by people that we can do away with much of the stuff and activity we thought we needed and allow us to make longer term sacrifices, through increased mental resilience, for the benefit of long term environmental sustainability. If we can sacrifice this much for a Virus surely we will be more willing to entertain the idea of giving up more for the sake of our environment - that is 100% guaranteed to end us all if we don't.
I hope it leads to people being more open to living simpler, more local, and sustainable lifestyles.


Cheers, Dom

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Well said Dom. It will be interesting to see just what economic damage comes out of this. Will it indeed be as bad as the forecasts? Will we be able to recover much faster than we have thought? (in Oz I mean). If not, then perhaps it might give some encouragement to the people who are fearful of the economic damage they think will be the product of repairing and reducing our fossil fuel industries and dependence. Personally I see that as actually growing the economy, rather than the opposite. I believe that there will be enormous avenues of opportunity, and that new fortunes will be made from going away from fossil fuels. We have to sooner or later anyway (50 years for oil,150 for coal)

One would also hope that populations such as that of the USA rethink the concept of "personal freedom" as one that "with freedom comes obligations and responsibilities to the wider community."

The pandemic has highlighted how the wider community is placed at risk through actions which may be selfish, unwitting, deliberate, reckless, miscalculated or ill informed, or a combination of all/some of the above. One would hope we adopt a more altruistic attitude to freedom. ( altruistic - selfless concern for the well-being of others.)

One for the economists amongst us I suppose.

We are now essentially down to one airline in Oz. We all know what will happen to air fares as a result. Is it time to nationalise Qantas to ensure fair fares? After all, they were govt owned up until 1993. I have no doubt that it was a clunky operation then, but could it be done in a much smarter way now?

Remember what Branson once said: "The quickest way to become a millionaire is to start as a billionaire, and purchase an airline" :U

Are there any other industries or companies that might be better to be nationalised? The power industry? (come on Paul, that's just for you....)

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Originally Posted by Mobyturns

One would also hope that populations such as that of the USA rethink the concept of "personal freedom" as one that "with freedom comes obligations and responsibilities to the wider community."

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I don't like your chances of that Moby. I reckon these good ole boys would sooner point a weapon at you (safety OFF) than give any consideration to consideration.

How many of these rednecks would there be in the USA I wonder? Probably a reasonable sized army's worth I suspect.

Attachment 472409



This excellent pic bears repeating too. This is the result of being told to stay indoors for a few weeks. They are baying for the Governor's blood at the State Capitol.

Attachment 472410





They remind me of Trolls :D
The eyeless guy on the right, in particular.

Mr Grumpy here.

I think its possibly a bit too early to talk about positives as there are a lot more negatives to come out of this pandemic, like the deaths of a lot more people especially from hunger and probably a war or two. A hard nose view might see this as a positive?

The sort of positives I see are more along the lines of behaviours like
General improvement of hand hygiene helping reduce all sorts of disease transfer
Working from home helping reduce traffic congestion etc
Cashless purchasing - coins and paper money are after all filthy things
More on line purchasing - This should reduce prices but maybe not, and it has a negative side in the reduction of retail jobs - maybe they can do something more productive?
Telemedicine - some negatives but overall I think its positive. I've just had a reminder of an upcoming appointment/review with one of my specialists - he's in an area of the city that has limited parking. He always runs late so the 15 minute review plus travel and parking etc can require as much as 2 hours and parking can cost me as much as $23. He's emailed me this morning to tell me he's offering a telemedicine consult - suits me just fine.

Overall I don't feel at all confident there will be much of a local change it the level of selfishness of people/business/governments and they will mostly drift back to a short term ME-ME-ME mode of operation. Maybe if a few more COVID19 deaths had occurred in Oz it would have woken a few more people up - but there is of course plenty of time for this to happen.

In the meantime even though I don't watch much TV I'm enjoying the near absence of TV ads for money sucking 3rd party travel/accomodation providers, sports betting and sports in general. I'm surprised at how sport still rates a segment in the news - it's not like any commercial sport is actually taking place. Just shows how much of it is hot air.

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Originally Posted by woodhutt

My hope would be that we begin to rethink the whole idea of globalization. Depending on other countries too much for essentials (PPE, ventilators, pharmaceuticals etc.) is giving too many hostages to fortune.
Pete

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Spot on Pete, and I'd be mightily surprised if very hard thinking on that is not already underway. Perhaps in some cases it might lead to a forging of greater bonds and partnerships between very small clusters of countries (ANZ comes immediately to mind)

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Just thinking a little more about this.

We know that internationally Australia punches well above its weight in a number of ways. We have a pretty decent sized economy, and a population that are generally very good thinkers, and laterally so. We have enormous basic resources too.

We know that NZ punches WAY above its weight (think about the number of Kiwis that are company leaders in Oz - very disproportionate to their numbers here).

Although little has been said, the two countries are undoubtedly showing the world how to restrict this pandemic very successfully, and hopefully come out the other side with fewer war wounds. Australia declared a pandemic fully two weeks before WHO did.

Jacinda Adern is talking about opening up NZ borders to Aussies pretty soon.



So, two things.
1. Should the National Cabinet actually be an ANZ Cabinet?
2. What areas are there where there might be much more scope for co-operation and collaboration between the two countries? With a view to being much more self-sustaining as a pair, but whilst retaining our separate sovereignties and individualisms.

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Originally Posted by BobL

Mr Grumpy here. I think its possibly a bit too early to talk about positives

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Signore Scontroso RobertoL, it is never too early to start talking positives. :D

(bold is mine)

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Originally Posted by BobL

The sort of positives I see are more along the lines of behaviours like
General improvement of hand hygiene helping reduce all sorts of disease transfer Yes
Working from home helping reduce traffic congestion etc Absolutely, a separate sub-topic in itself which I'm coming too.
Cashless purchasing - coins and paper money are after all filthy things Probably less than actual hand shaking, and I bet we'll go back to that
More on line purchasing There must have been a huge increase, plus many more virgins using it.
Telemedicine Seems so obvious doesn't it. Should have been happening years ago. Same for solicitors, accountants etc.

the near absence of TV ads SBS On Demand with an Ad-blocker works wickedly well - just a slight blip and the show carries on. You can even see the little dots in the time line when the ads are going to blip. Same for Channel Nine, should you find anything worth watching.....

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I see so little advertising of any kind on any medium that when I do it's a complete assault to the senses.

Further to what I was saying before:
ACCC boss Rod Sims warns against anti-competitive behaviour from Qantas - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Further to what I was saying before:
ACCC boss Rod Sims warns against anti-competitive behaviour from Qantas - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

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I think any of those ACCC warnings are not worth the breath spoken. We has seen it all before about fuel prices, gas prices, electricity prices. The truth is they are powerless to act and are just a toothless tiger.

How do you successfully argue that an airline ticket is too expensive? It is easy to have your account team show spreadsheets of numbers justifying the price to their outgoings. You can even just argue the current pricing was unsustainable and hence the demise of Virgin.

I have learned to make absolutely excellent Turkish bread :)

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Caveat: not looking for this thread to descend to a political or ideological shight fight, nor a tussle about whether or not there has been an overreaction on the part of our various governments, or whether or not any restrictions should ever have been put in place.

Even if you don't know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone with the virus. :;

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I don't like your chances of that Moby. I reckon these good ole boys would sooner point a weapon at you (safety OFF) than give any consideration to consideration.

How many of these rednecks would there be in the USA I wonder? Probably a reasonable sized army's worth I suspect.

This excellent pic bears repeating too. This is the result of being told to stay indoors for a few weeks. They are baying for the Governor's blood at the State Capitol.

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And off we go again down the slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by Beardy

I think any of those ACCC warnings are not worth the breath spoken. We has seen it all before about fuel prices, gas prices, electricity prices. The truth is they are powerless to act and are just a toothless tiger.

How is do you successfully argue that an airline ticket is too expensive? It is easy to have your account team show spreadsheets of numbers justifying the price to their outgoings. You can even just argue the current pricing was unsustainable and hence the demise of Virgin.

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Seems to me that there more positive results when Alan Fels was running the show.

Justifying airfare costs - company profits over a period of years, and the associated fares would be some sort of indicator. If Australia can only sustain one airline (or indeed, one whatever) wouldn't that suggest that it should be owned, or controlling-interest owned, by the Federal Govt? There was much criticism for Govts at different levels (Fed, State) selling off the farm over the last decade or so. Is it time to reverse some of that?

I can think of a few good things that MAY come of this:

-- The environment... We are clearly seeing how humans have impacted this planet. Us going away for a few weeks and things are dramatically improving (pollution, animals, plants)

-- Population... People may think about having 13 kids.

-- Debt... Its... everywhere. Staggering debt. There is no savings, no fat, nothing for a rainy day

-- Work... enslavement with part-time casual no-commitment employemnt has shown itself for what it is "Slavery with extra steps".

-- Ethos... employers cut employees off instantly. Absolutely instantly. Loyalty? Complete rubbish.

-- Time. People are finding time to be with family. Using cameras, tech, doing new things and seeing people more.

-- House prices. Let them collapse. Utterly. Let the farce end.


Revolution? --> Coronavirus risks widening intergenerational wealth divide - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Is it time to have a good old fashioned revolution? Take over the hideous institutions that have bloated our society and smash them?

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

-- Population... People may think about having 13 kids.

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WP

What are you suggesting?

Attachment 472415

:wink:

Regards
Paul

PS: I do have some comment following on from FF's post #9, but I need preparation time :cool:

Ah! I may have worked something out, wrt this pic

Attachment 472416

In "the other thread" I noted that they were almost exclusively overweight middle-aged white males with goatees.

Not only that, but they all LOOK the same.

They are clearly all brothers. (I've got banjo music going through my head)

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I wonder. There has never yet been a vaccine made for any Coronavirus (is my understanding), which includes the common cold (NeilS might have access to good info on that). So if a vaccine is invented it may have excellent flow-through benefits for limiting common colds?

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My reply to this has to (of necessity) sound a bit pessimistic to draw out the positive.

"No vaccines are currently licensed for any of the human CoVs." Source. There are however some vaccines produced for a number of CoVs for use in chickens, cattle, dogs, cats and pigs, but "vaccinated animals still display significant disease upon" being infected. So far, nobody has volunteered to line up with the animals to see if any of those are effective in humans.

Nobody knows if an effective and safe vaccine for humans will be found for SARS CoV2. The other unknown is whether any immunity acquired from a vaccine (if that can be found) or from surviving an infection will protect the individual in the future.

The immunologist in my family has been talking about the risks from these zoonotic viruses for over two decades. According to him, this pandemic is just a practice run for a big one.

For example, he sites Avian flu (H5N1), which has a high fatality rate in humans with up to 60% of those infected dying from it, with the highest fatality rate being in the teenage and 20s year old cohorts. Currently that virus is primarily transmitted between birds and humans and there have only been a limited number of human to human transmissions. However, scientists have shown in laboratory test that it can become more infectious between mammals. The concern among virologist is that this virus could mutate to become more infectious between humans and it, or another novel virus, will cause not an unprecedented pandemic but a catastrophic one.

SARS Cov2 still has some way to go before we know the full extent of what it is going to do to us as a species, one way and another, but to the extent that it has given us a rehearsal for a very big one is both timely and invaluable.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

In "the other thread" I noted that they were almost exclusively overweight middle-aged white males with goatees.

Not only that, but they all LOOK the same.

They are clearly all brothers. (I've got banjo music going through my head)

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And we take another step down that slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

WP

What are you suggesting?

:wink:

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Reminds me of this one I sent to my kids last night :)

Attachment 472435

So if I have a goatee and I’m white and overweight I’m a redneck?

I want another thread like the last one like this that turned into a shightfight every two or three days. That was some interesting reading.

Yes you are a redneck. I would tell you more but I have to go and load some ammo.

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Originally Posted by riverbuilder

I want another thread like the last one like this that turned into a shightfight every two or three days. That was some interesting reading.

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I reckon you will get your wish :roll: :rolleyes: :oo:

Put some oil on that slippery slope :2tsup:

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Are there any other industries or companies that might be better to be nationalised? The power industry? (come on Paul, that's just for you....)

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Brett

Back at the end of last century I was vocal about how utilities should not be in private hands. (electricy, gas, water etc). At the time I worked in the NSW electricity system and it had just corporatised, which was the precursor to privatisation. However, a succession of gvernments then sat on that idea until fve or so years ago when the sell off commenced in earnest. The Labour party put the process in place and eventualy the Liberal party took up the option.

I have not really changed my view on this subject despite now working for a privately owned elctricity company (in QLD). Would the government consider a buy back? Realisticaly? NO. They don't have the money for that type of project or the inclination. They talk up how this or that should be done, but unless an investor comes along it doesn't happen. They are short on investors because they will not establish firm ground rules.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by Slave

So if I have a goatee and I’m white and overweight I’m a redneck?

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Only if you are prone to posing on the steps of Parliament with your assault rifle as a protest, which is not possible in Australia, so I guess the answer must be no. :U

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

They are short on investors because they will not establish firm ground rules.

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Somebody should tell them that if they bought all of the power stations they wouldn't need to establish any ground rules.

They are not short of money cause they can just print some more.

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Originally Posted by Slave

So if I have a goatee and I’m white and overweight I’m a redneck?

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I think the ticksheet is a bit longer than that basic set of requirements :)

-- Flannelette shirt
-- Pickup truck
-- Old grog bottle to blow hillbilly tunes on
-- Has Maw and Paw
-- Wife is related in ways other than marriage
-- Guns are on display
-- Missing teeth

There are other optional requisites, that create various sub-species :
-- Super huge, like tank
-- Super skinny, like sapling
-- Mullet, crewcut or high-and-tight
-- Flys a flag on the veranda (or porch, depending on the grandness of the residence!)
-- Outdoor "fire" (a hole in the ground with a casual lining of bricks at the edge)
-- Rusting wheel-less cars in the front yard (that are sure to be "done up" one day)

Slave, ignore FenceFurniture, he's a bit of a tease. :) :)

Many years ago I joked with friends that one day I would sit in my study or office and consult to patients around the world via a TV screen the size of a wall. :)

Five weeks ago I came to the realisation that I could not see patients in my office as, being 70, I am vulnerable and at significant risk for infection. I closed my clinical psychology practice for two weeks to prepare for and set up a Telehealth practice. 15 hours/day including weekends (no workshop time). Over the past three weeks I have been consulting in front of an iMac. Now down to 12 hours/day. (I am flipping exhausted! - roll on the long weekend. Saturday winding down in the workshop).

It has been good to see Medicare and health funds come to the party and support everyone.

Once the die has been cast, can we go back? Telehealth was such a small service in the past provided for those in remote areas. Now it provides for access in the next suburb and in the next state. While face-to-face work remains the heart of assessments and treatment, Telehealth is going to reach out to so many more who are limited either because of distance or mobility.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Now that you mention it Derek, I don't know how I didn't think of this before - days or weeks ago when Bob was first talking about it. Some years ago (5-7) a friend of my partner was doing psychiatric sessions via Skype for people in far western NSW, amongst other locations. I had a brief chat with him about the future of it - I thought it was a wonderful idea, and he was basically of the opinion that whilst it wasn't as hands on as a physical face to face, it was probably 85% or more as good, and infinitely better than nothing at all!

I've wondered about the efficacy of teleconferencing. A very long time ago I read three books on non-verbal communication including the seminal Alan Pease tome. Negotiation was a key element of my work at that time and seeing clues in opponents' messages proved invaluable. I started experimenting with ideas like invading people's space etc. and the results were slightly horrifying. Eventually I stopped because it felt like cold blooded manipulation; which it was.

Cutting to the present topic, my employees frequently travel within Sydney and interstate to call on customers and occasionally overseas. Internet meetings are becoming normalised in the current crisis so the sales guys are likely to spend less time in the car or the air down the track. An improvement in efficiency and sustainability.

Families are spending more time with each other although that could be a double edged sword in some cases.

Politicians are actually cooperating with each other (!!!) and many ideologies have been set aside, at least for the duration.

The LNP are actually considering real tax reform with Ken Henry's excellent review being dusted off.

The vast majority of Australians understand the gravity of the situation and willingly complying. We are revelling in our unity and its very satisfying outcome compared to most other countries.

We're all saving money by spending less in all those places which are now closed. Another double edged sword.

Life has become simpler and some of us will appreciate that.

Last and certainly not least, my shed time has increased enormously.

mick :)

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

Many years ago I joked with friends that one day I would sit in my study or office and consult to patients around the world via a TV screen the size of a wall. :)

Five weeks ago I came to the realisation that I could not see patients in my office as, being 70, I am vulnerable and at significant risk for infection. I closed my clinical psychology practice for two weeks to prepare for and set up a Telehealth practice. 15 hours/day including weekends (no workshop time). Over the past three weeks I have been consulting in front of an iMac. Now down to 12 hours/day. (I am flipping exhausted! - roll on the long weekend. Saturday winding down in the workshop).

It has been good to see Medicare and health funds come to the party and support everyone.

Once the die has been cast, can we go back? Telehealth was such a small service in the past provided for those in remote areas. Now it provides for access in the next suburb and in the next state. While face-to-face work remains the heart of assessments and treatment, Telehealth is going to reach out to so many more who are limited either because of distance or mobility.

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My daughter has been going down that path (I've told her of you Derek!). She is working towards her qualification (its endless, Degress in Science and Psych, postgrad...masters...) and now uses her time to help those I'd describe as desperate*.

We talked of how to support her clients while separated. She spends a LOT of time with them, but since she can't be there all the time we talked about doing the video thing. It seems incredibly important. Normal people can handle being isolated at home for a while, its not too bad, we find outlets... but her clients, hooley dooley. They fly apart at the seams on day 3.

A suicide, another attempt (bloody serious), violence (a stabbing of a worker) and desperate woe at survival potential (imagine being isolated and incapacitated in a wheelchair, with brain damage). These people NEED contact. They NEED to be able to connect.

I think a very decent video chat may be an excellent way to get support to them "after hours".

Derek - honestly - I have no idea how you do what you do. It takes an incredibly special person.


* the stories are absolutely horrific. The unbelievable trauma, the inhumanity and sheer bastardy of the perpetrators is incomprehensible.

What I have discovered during the lockdown is just how supportive my family, friends and neighbours have been. Given a little extra time in their lives people do step up to what is most important; looking after each other.

When things ease off I don't expect this to continue to the same level, but I think something of it will remain with us as we return to the hurly-burly of our lives. I certainly will not be in any doubt about the care that is there when it is really needed.