Printable View
Has anyone used hard wax oil to finish surfaces that need a durable finish? This seems to be gaining prominence in the recent year.
Bunnings sell a product by Kaboodle, which I know little about. Any experience, reviews?
I want a clear, waterproof finish for a coffee table, and this may be an option.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I've used paste wax over Danish oil on a couple of tables and it's been pretty bullet proof so far.
Sorry, no personal experience. However, you made me curious so I looked around...
This page at the Natural Timber Oils website talks about the whys of hard wax oils using an Osmo document. I've been meaning to give the stuff a try even if it is super-exxy. I think you can mail-order Osmo (they have sample pots as well) if you don't trust the big green shed (the Kaboodle website seems to imply it's a house brand for Bunnings). Timbecon will sell you the Whittle stuff if you'd prefer that; it seems to be slightly cheaper than Osmo and it's sourced from Germany with their green mania if that's important to you (it is for me). Osmo itself can be obtained from VCS Floors in Perth (apparently their only Perth stockist).
Thanks for this. Australian Wood Review spoke well of the gloss: Whittle Evolution Hardwax Oil - Australian Wood Review
Regards from Perth
Derek
Have not used myself but watched this video recently:
https://youtu.be/8sAu_yPm_Vg
Hi Derek
I picked up a couple of samples of Evolution (Matte and Satin) when we were at Wood Dust. I used it on some Ironbark and am very impressed. I can't vouch for its durability yet as it is too soon.
What I like about the Matte is that the Ironbark looks like raw timber with no finish (which is what I wanted). I used Uni-Pro mini rollers to apply it. I thought that I had purchased the Microfibre ones but it turned out they were Acrylic (11mm nap) and they were a disaster - dropped HUNDREDS of fibres on the job which had to be sanded out. Am yet to use Microfibre rollers. I've got a few 5mm Mohair ones to try.
I applied 3 coats after sanding to 500. Between first and second coat I sanded 500 again, after 2nd I sanded 800, and after the third coat I used 3000g. The matte finish has a sensational silky feel to it! I just rolled it on and left it and most of the orange peel finish levelled out. What was left was sanded back.
This board had already been coated with Osmo PolyW Raw (the white one). I didn't like the white effect on the Ironbark and so sanded it off and went with the Evolution.
Suffice to say that fletty and I are going halves in a litre of Evolution Matte. The Satin is also very nice. The gloss is more of a semi-gloss IMO.
You can purchase direct from Whittles and they also have the microfibre rollers.
HTH
Brett
EDIT: I don't know how exactly true this is, but rumour has it that the guy who developed Osmo got the irits and started out on his own to create Evolution. What I can tell you for an absolute fact is that they both have the same distinctive solvent smell - like fly spray :C.
WARNING 1: Do NOT wipe down the timber with metho or turps before applying the finish. If you do then the finish will craze and not set. Use White Spirits to wipe off any sanding dust.
WARNING 2: Do NOT wipe down the job with White Spirits between coats. If you do you will start to remove the first coat.
No need to ask me how I know that....you can probably guess.......:;
Thanks Brett. I plan to use the Satin - compared the finishes at Timbecon, and preferred this.
I also plan to rub it on with a microfibre cloth. That creates the thinnest possible coating. 2 or 3 coats will be sufficient, I imagine.
How long do you reckon it will be before it stops off-gassing? I need to pack it up send it off to Sydney in about a week.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Why do you want thin as possible? For fast drying? You should still wait 24 hours between coats (alright, 18 is quite ok). I really would stick with the roller. I tried brushing and then clothing. Nup. If it has to wait then it has to wait.Quote:
Originally Posted by derekcohen
Not too long. I don't recall much smell at all after a day or so. I brought it up to the house pretty much 24 hours after last coat and didn't notice anything (and I would).Quote:
Originally Posted by derekcohen
My wood working experience is very limited but heres my 2c
I have used osmo polyx and whittle waxes evolution. They're essentially the same once its on and set I think. they both feel silky smooth.
I found that evolution wax is less viscous and found it harder to apply thinly with a roller. It doesnt effect the finish but it means you use more. I use "monarch' brand of 5mm nap microfibre rollers - no problems so far. I have also applied it with a brush and just with a rag. It all works this stuff is forgiving - im not very 'careful' when applying it. I have seen people dip the whole roller into the can and lay it on thick - they dont have problems too. using a rag applies it super thin - still feels great but Im sure it will be less durable.
evolution is slightly more yellow and osmo is slightly more amber.
osmo's can seems to seal better so the product seemed to last longer.
If you want the most durable finish I think osmo's 'top oil' has the highest wax content but it is very expensive. Osmo also makes 'wood protector' for high liquid areas which is applied prior to apply finish.
Both create a white powder when sanding which can be annoying when it gets into grain as its hard to get out. TBH no one notices it though except for the people who are making it - i dont think anyone cares.
Osmo's instructions say no sanding and whittle waxes (i asked their instagram account) says to sand with 320 after first coat only. I asked anton gerner on insta what he does he says he uses 600. I asked the whelan the warehouse team who would be pushing out 100s of furniture pieces a month and exclusively use osmo their technique and they say to use 800 after first coat and 1500 after second coat.
When I applied it in doors it stunk for like a week. When I applied it in the shed I was able to bring it in after a day and it wasnt too bad.
I dunno about this applying it thinly caper. I reckon put it on how it goes on via the recommended method (roller in this case) and basically follow the destructions. It worked well for me with the Evo, but bearing in mind that I was trying to make the 100ml sample pot go a long way - which it did. Best rough estimate is 25ml per coat per 0.5 m² (so ~20 m² per litre)Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyu
I have a couple of sample pots of Evolution on the way and want to try it on some wood turning. How fine do you sand prior to application? The information sheet seems to be aimed at flooring and recommends sanding with 120 or finer. I would normally sand to at least 600, or if I am after a really good finish 1500.
Tony
Well, I finished the Fiddleback Jarrah and Jarrah coffee table today - literally: drawer completed, carcase sanded to 320/400 grit, and then rubbed on the Evolution Satin is the same way I did the water-based poly in my kitchen build. It is STUNNING! I am a convert!
My method used microfibre cloth and elbow grease, left for about 8 hours (it is dry heat in Perth), rubbed back with 400 grit grey mesh, and added a second rubbed coat. No sanding between coats. Easy peasy :)
This is a photo from my kitchen build ...
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...l_5b72ee9d.jpg
And a link to the description there: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...20Rebuild.html
I'll have photos up tomorrow. Look out for my build in the furniture forum.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I would do that without hesitation. :2tsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by tony_A
When you applied it with a cloth, did you really rub it in?
The technique which is described with a non abrasive pad requires one to really rub it in, apparently stops the grain from raising giving a nicer finish. Ive never tried it
I rubbed it in - hard, in circles and with the grain. There was minimal (if any at all) grain raising. This may have been due to the wood being hard Jarrah.
No abrasive pads. No paint brush. No sanding between coats (the grey mesh - 400n grit - was used more from habit to denib anything). The surface was prepared before hand to 400 grit with my 20-year old Festo ROS.
I do not have a worthy photo yet.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Here's a photo. Two coats of rubbed in hard wax. Nil else done.
https://i.postimg.cc/MpQ7GykW/Finish.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/Bv52T4Qk/Finish2.jpg
Lots more photos in my thread finale.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Fabulous Derek - I really dig how this product makes it look like timber! I had previously thought that the Matte would not be right for timber with figure and/or chatoyance, and that the Satin or Gloss product would be best in those cases. You have just confirmed that!
Photos are one thing, real life is another. Do you think it has brought up the grain as you would like?
I think for a desk with a computer monitor on it (just as an example) the Matte would be excellent as it would eliminate reflections from the monitor. Similarly for a piece that was under window light - the Matte actually allows you to see the timber, not the light reflection.
Your application method looks like it will work for a quick job, but I'm still concerned about how resistant to liquids it might be, being so thin. Can I encourage you to try a test on a board with 2-3 coats of roller application? (half a board rubbed, half rollered) Maybe do a wine test after two weeks of drying? The rolling may need cooler weather to enable the levelling to happen better.
Curious, do you spray water as you go up grits when sanding?Quote:
Originally Posted by derekcohen
When I previously described Anton's and Whelan the Warehouse's technique of sanding with 600/800/1500 I meant to say it is used only to denib. Essentially just running sandpaper over the surface lightly once along the grain.
Spray water? Never.
Mostly, I plane or scrape a surface, and do not sand. However, some finishes benefit from sanding. The hardwax oils all recommend sanding to 120-240 grit. I went a little higher, to 400 grit. Going to 1500 grit may just end up burnishing the surface of the wood, and make adhesion problematic.
Since my boards are planed, sanding starts at 120, then 240, and finishing at 400 with Abranet mesh. The mesh lasts a long time, and I generally use the same disk through an entire piece.
Now all the hardwax oil manufacturers recommend thin coats. In fact, they ask that the applied coat is wiped off. So we are talking THIN coats of hardwax oil. There is absolutely no benefit in thicker coats - from what I hear, it just gets waxy and leaves marks. I experienced this when applying water-based poly using foam or hair brushes. I realised that a thin coat makes more sense. Multiple thin coats are better than a few thicker coats.
My kitchen was completed 3 years ago now. The finish still looks like new. I get a charge every time I look at the Hard Maple surfaces.
Take a look at the pics (I will post them shortly) of the coffee table, and tell me that this is a finish for a quick job? :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Fair enough, I could probably have said "faster job" to be more accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by derekcohen
I don't have much experience but have just finished a dining table with that same hard wax oil. The table was designed to look modern and I wanted something that left it looking as natural as possible, definitely didn't want a glass-like glossy finish.
It turned out amazing, I'm really happy with the result. It's only been a couple of weeks so I can't talk about longevity but so far so good.
The table is made from recycled Ironbark.
I talked to the guy at Timbecon and he suggested sanding to 120-150, doing two coats with whatever I want, sand with 800 very lightly just for dust between and then 1200 at the end, again just for dust removal. I followed the exact process and I'm very happy with the result.
Even the packaging says to avoid thick coats and to aim for coverage (30m2/l). When with a lot of rubbing, I couldn't get the advertised coverage (I got something like 20m2/l).
I used the Scotch Brite fine pad for rubbing it in, and really worked it hard into the timber. It took a while but I found it infinitely easier than trying to make a flawless finish with a brush.
It looks almost like raw wood, the finish just brought out the colour a bit, a little like wetting the wood.
If I was doing it again, the only thing I'd change is to go with a satin finish instead of matte, but this looks quite good too.
It's very expensive, comes out probably at double the standard poly but I do like the finish and it's really easy to apply. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...17980d0047.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d24dc70918.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2e98ea9fb0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d8fdc98116.jpg
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Nice work igalic!
I have only used the roller method with this product and will certainly do some testing with rubbing it in. I wouldn't say the rolled coats were "thick" but "thicker". I was using a sample pot (100ml) so I had to work it around the surface quite a bit to make the coverage. Rubbing would certainly increase coverage if for no other reason than what is left in the roller after each coat.
That dining table looks great! I really like the setup with the tent. where do you get your ironbark?
You can probably put another coat of satin over it if you want a satin finish (I did evolution satin over polyx matt and it worked fine (and thats a different brand!)
Hm didn't think of going over it with another satin coat, I might give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion [emoji4]
I recycle my timber, usually try to find bulk lots in Gumtree or eBay. It takes a lot of work but I enjoy the transformation and it does come out cheaper. Probably wouldn't do it if I was charging for the projects [emoji4]
This is the original timber. I don't think I'll ever work with Ironbark again [emoji4]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...144513baf9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...95689f8e5f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b2aea310d7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d46b575c8f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3991391c45.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d6aad7dc4b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5f5f56286d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c085a4f0bc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...98cfc11d67.jpg
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
wow big difference. I always thought ironbark was a redder colour. it was worth the effort :)
It would be fun to learn it's actually some other kind of timber :D
It was sold to me as IronBark, and because it was in fairly poor shape (lots of cups, bows, twists and cracks), I got it fairly cheap. I wasn't specifically going after IronBark. I'm new to woodworking and especially to Australian timber, so I could be wrong.
It's definitely very very hard, blunted a lot of tools and set my table saw on fire (it also eats through sandpaper like crazy), but looking at images of IronBark, it does seem like it's more red. I found a few photos where it's light like this, so perhaps there's some variation.
But would appreciate knowing that this is something else if it is :)
Cheers,
Ivan
I did think it looked more like Blackbutt because I've not heard of blond Ironbark. Perhaps it might another of the blond species too, like Messmate, but my knowledge is limited.
Do you know what it was used for before it was demolished? Looked like it was used outdoors?
Along with blackbutt other common outdoor timbers in melb are yellow stringybark and silver top ash. I don't have the knowledge to be able to distinguish between them all though
Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk
Hi,
With regard to the timber, Red Ironbark is mostly a strong red colour. Grey Ironbark on the other hand can be a lighter red, or even a mix of red and pale to dark grey. and yes, both will give your tools a serious workout.
Regards,
Rob
My first thoughts were Blackbutt. With you saying that the edge went off the blades quickly reinforces that for me.
Derek, if you have some Stoploss bags then you should get the remaining Evolution oil into it pronto. I found that my 100ml sample pots started to go a little gluggy perhaps two months after they had been opened. It wasn't disastrous but it reduces the product quantity and I had to fish out a few blobs.
I did a water ring test a couple of nights ago. One ring on the table that is Danish Oil finish and another on the new Evolution Hardwax Oil. The Danish Oil finish was completely buggered after being left overnight, but I was able to rub off a slight mark with my bare finger on the Evolution. Will have some more in a few weeks (after Sturt Gallery open day) and will do a red wine test after that.
Brett, where does one purchase Stoploss bags economically? Are they available locally?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Don't know about locally Derek - I got mine from LV a few years ago. They stopped selling the collapsible bottles and got the stoploss bags instead. They're excellent.
Carbatec only have the bits that go with the bags (typical) so I'd say they don't stock them any longer. Looking at those prices I'd say they were very expensive there anyway.
AH! Here we go: Timberbits have them at 4 for $28 which is pretty good
Direct from StopLoss they are pretty cheap: 8 for USD22.40 so that's about AUD4.00 each. Postage is a bit exxy: at the PayPal checkout it says Air Service $16.90 so about AUD24.14 or $3 per bag.
I may have to contact them about a bulk lot for a Group Buy :)
I meant to respond to this a while back but ended up in a time warp instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by derekcohen
Perhaps that may be the case with a film finish that sit on top of the timber like polyurethane etc, but with oils they usually cross-link across the coats (the polymer chains link up as I understand it). I've never found it to be a problem with finishes peeling off. Not a scientific expert in these matters though, and these hardwax oils may behave differently to regular oils in terms of polymerising - but that would be what made it go gluggy in my 100ml sample pot, so perhaps it's similar behaviour to regular oils.
Just as a footnote to StopLoss bags: I have had Rustins Danish start to polymerise in a bag after about 2 years, so don't regard them as a silver bullet. Having said that, I have some MinWax decking oil that has been in StopLoss for 3 years (2nd Feb 2016) and it's absolutely perfect - used some just today. Just depends on the product itself.
So Timbecon have the bags and CT the bits to go with them Amazon US must have got the sandshoe from Stoploss because they no longer sell them which is a pity as they were 4 for 12USD when they did.
You mean these?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...&condition=new
I use Argon (from one of those miniature welding gas bottles) to stop my finishes developing a skin or going off, but I haven't tried it with hard wax oil yet. Total cost is about the same as the stoploss bags and it seems to go a lot further.
For those who don't know, argon is 2.5x heavier than air and is essentially non-reactive, so a shot inside a can or bottle and then putting on the lid will see the argon form a layer over the contents, keeping the air from whatever is inside even if you don't fill it completely with argon.
That's a cool idea - where do you buy it and what spraying system do you attach to the bottle?Quote:
Originally Posted by djeddy
If you do prefer the collapsible bottles they are still available in 1 or 2 litresizes - albeit much more expensive than the platic bags. For example: https://www.ebay.com.au/b/Darkroom-C...e6e60dfff858a1
If your cans seal OK, Bloxygen may also be useful https://www.ardonmarine.com.au/produ...uct-preserver/
Brian