Close call

Well closeish.

So I was setting up a stop block on my table saw sled. I had the tape measure just under the tooth of the blade at the measurement needed( about 450mm) holding the tape measure down with my thumb about a cm or so from the blade. I leaned to the left to clamp the stop block at the end of the tape measure. In doing so I seemed to have bump the big red flappy stop thing with my hip knocking it off. Somehow though in doing so it has hit the green button and started the table saw:o. Not only did it take a bite out of my favourite tape measure it managed to scare the s*^t out of me. When it started my finger was less than an inch away. The blade was not very high but I don't know if it was luck or skill that whipped my hand away from the blade without even a scratch.

Now I have been considering a new tablesaw for a while and a Saw Stop has been on the list. Not just for the safety feature but I believe it is a goood saw. Now obviously this incident would have cost me a new cartridge and blade on top of the already soiled pants, but has certainly got me thinking.

Some may say that it should be turned off at the power and unplugged before anything like this, and if you do you are far more disciplined than me. But I'll think that most people will happily set up a stop with a tape measure and ruler without even considering unplugging, am I wrong?

I have absolutely no idea how it happened and even tried to replicate the scenario since, minus the tape measure and finger of course. But can't get it to happen.

How many lucky chances do I get.

Cheers
Shane

I religiously isolate power to a machine before touching a blade or cutter. Whether it be a saw, buzzer, spindle moulder, router, whatever, I always isolate the power. I find myself day dreaming, not really concentrating on what I am doing most of the time, and after years of doing this stuff, it has become a pretty natural movement to turn a machine on. There have been numerous occasions that I have been setting an exact height of my sawblade by resting a workpiece up against the blade while I raise or lower the height. Instead of reaching down to wind the adjustment wheel, every now and then I reach down and repeatedly press the on button only to get frustrated that the bloody thing won't turn on. And then I realise I'm not trying to turn it on at the moment....luckily the machines are always isolated. I only isolate if I need actually to touch the blade, so it's not that much of a hassle really.

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Originally Posted by shanesmith80

I leaned to the left to clamp the stop block at the end of the tape measure. In doing so I seemed to have bump the big red flappy stop thing with my hip knocking it off. Somehow though in doing so it has hit the green button and started the table saw:o.

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Rather than running out an buying a new saw I'd be investigating why this happened.
Maybe the switch needs to be repositioned?
Maybe you need a different switch?
Photo of your actual switch might provide some clues.

But otherwise Kuffy is right on - it would not have happened if the switch at the GPO had been turned off.

Isolating the machine totally is highly recommended when changing blades, or doing any task that places any of your appendages in close proximity to the blade.

I'm with Kuffy - I isolate the machine to the extent that I unplug the power cord and place the plug in full view. Easy task for single phase machines, but a bit of a PIA for 3 phase machines. Still its far better than having lost time and expenses due to an "unplanned start" that takes off some fingers.

I always unplug when changing blades but when adjusting the fence....:no:.
I've found that if you have keys or a phone in your pocket, when you brush against the switch, that is enough to depress the start button.
Is your saw plugged into one of the suspended outlets Shane? A timely warning. Flick the switch off.

Bloody hell that's enough to give anyone a heart attack.

I have a shopmade safety switch like this one
Homemade safety switch | Build n' Cook With Tom

The green button is so far behind the timber board so there is absolutely no chance for a surprise.

Ouch !! Really makes you think twice doesn't it. My setup is about the same as yours Shane. But "it couldn't happen to me - could it ?" Perhaps I will have another look at it.

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Originally Posted by Mobyturns

Isolating the machine totally is highly recommended when changing blades, or doing any task that places any of your appendages in close proximity to the blade.

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Originally Posted by Kuffy

I religiously isolate power to a machine before touching a blade or cutter. .

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Like i said turning the saw off would have been the best thing to do. And for changing blades or riving knife I certainly do. But for using a ruler or tape measure to set the fence or stop block it's never even crossed my mind. Now I may be wrong but do people actually isolate the power for this? Considering the switch is a suspended outlet sitting right there maybe I will for now on.

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Originally Posted by Wongo

Bloody hell that's enough to give anyone a heart attack.

I have a shopmade safety switch like this one
Homemade safety switch | Build n' Cook With Tom

The green button is so far behind the timber board so there is absolutely no chance for a surprise.

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Thats a cool little idea, might have to look into that.

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Originally Posted by NCArcher

I always unplug when changing blades but when adjusting the fence....:no:.
I've found that if you have keys or a phone in your pocket, when you brush against the switch, that is enough to depress the start button.
Is your saw plugged into one of the suspended outlets Shane? A timely warning. Flick the switch off.

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It is the suspended outlet and I may just do that from now on.

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Originally Posted by BobL

Rather than running out an buying a new saw I'd be investigating why this happened.
Maybe the switch needs to be repositioned?
Maybe you need a different switch?
Photo of your actual switch might provide some clues.

But otherwise Kuffy is right on - it would not have happened if the switch at the GPO had been turned off.

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Ive been considering a new saw anyway, but in saying that I'm not going to rush out just because of this.
I think it was just an unlucky fluke as when trying to get it to happen I couldn't. The switch setup wongo linked to could be a good idea.

On a similar theme, every power tool I own that needs a tool to remove blades etc I cable tie the tool to the cable right by the plug. This means that in order to change the blade or bit I have no choice but to unplug it because that’s where the tool is. For that reason alone I bemoan the introduction of keyless chucks on corded drills! As an added bonus I never have to go hunting for the peg spanner or whatever is needed because it is effectively permanently attached to the plug.

I agree with Bobl in that the cause of the incident should be investigated thoroughly, perhaps get a second person to try and replicate it if you can’t. The flappy paddle type off-switch is almost impossible to bypass but you seem to have managed it somehow. Is it possible that the rocker switch underneath the paddle was only half off and the bump knocked it back on again? That could have been caused by being too gentle when switching the saw off instead of positively pushing the paddle and feeling it “click” off.

Perhaps consider replacing it with a No Volt Release (NVR) switch?

You need something like this :)

Rick

Attachment 441404

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Originally Posted by shanesmith80

Like i said turning the saw off would have been the best thing to do. And for changing blades or riving knife I certainly do. But for using a ruler or tape measure to set the fence or stop block it's never even crossed my mind. Now I may be wrong but do people actually isolate the power for this? Considering the switch is a suspended outlet sitting right there maybe I will for now on.

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No I don't isolate the machine every time to set the fence as I use the measure on the fence and a scrap block to then test the cut width. Same for using the mitre fence, always have on hand some scrap pine (dunnage etc) to test cut angles etc. I have worked out the "zero error" correction for each kerf width blade that I use on the saw and apply as required.

If I have a need to directly measure the distance between the tips of the blade to fence or depth for a dado cut I do isolate the power.

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Originally Posted by warrick

You need something like this :)

Rick

Attachment 441404

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This is exactly what is on the saw. All I can think off is that when I knocked the red flap off one of the pins it hinges on somehow hit the on button.

These types of switches are better - the ON button is completely covered and the cover has to be positively lifted to switch on.

Attachment 441417

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Originally Posted by BobL

These types of switches are better - the ON button is completely covered and the cover has to be positively lifted to switch on.

Attachment 441417

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That looks like a better solution Bob, I have those on my sander and DC. On the table saw It came with something similar to this which has never been a problem.



Rick

Attachment 441428

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Originally Posted by warrick

You need something like this :)

Rick

Attachment 441404

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Whilst these appear to meet the requirements of machinery safety regulations, imo they are a poor solution due to the design of the flap and the ease with which the flap can be dislodged from the base.

The event at the root of this discussion highlights the short comings of this design. I believe that the "close call" should be discussed with staff at the Electrical Safety Office within Worksafe with a view to having this style of switch discontinued on "hobby" machinery.

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Originally Posted by BobL

These types of switches are better - the ON button is completely covered and the cover has to be positively lifted to switch on.

Attachment 441417

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These are a more satisfactory design, however the cover flap can still be dislodged from the unit. Been there ….

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Originally Posted by warrick

That looks like a better solution Bob, I have those on my sander and DC. On the table saw It came with something similar to this which has never been a problem.



Rick

Attachment 441428

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These units are a far better solution however they cost more …. therefore are not high on the design priorities for "budget machinery."

great thread. I have an old TS with what looks to me like an old bakelite light switch on it, this reminds me that I really need to change that before I get into using it too much... I'll go to something like https://www.carbatec.com.au/machinery-and-accessories/electrical-switches-and-leads/nvr-switch-kjd-12-narrow-plate-45mmx72mm-plate-3-holes as a first step (until I can justify replacing the whole saw)

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Originally Posted by Mobyturns

These are a more satisfactory design, however the cover flap can still be dislodged from the unit. Been there ….

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https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...7&d=1535540654

Sure but if the flap is knocked off the one above it is no worse than the one shown below.
The stop button is still above the start, and the start button is flush with the surface so has to be positively engaged.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...549325&thumb=1

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Originally Posted by BobL

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...7&d=1535540654

Sure but if the flap is knocked off the one above it is no worse than the one shown below.
The stop button is still above the start, and the start button is flush with the surface so has to be positively engaged.

https://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...549325&thumb=1

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The start button on the original unit is also below the yellow surround. The difference with the DOL unit is that there is no flap which can be dislodged into a position that can actuate the switch.

The real lesson here is always isolate the machine whenever your appendages are in a position where they can be injured with an unintended start-up.

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Originally Posted by shanesmith80

Now I have been considering a new tablesaw for a while and a Saw Stop has been on the list. Not just for the safety feature but I believe it is a goood saw. Now obviously this incident would have cost me a new cartridge and blade on top of the already soiled pants, but has certainly got me thinking.

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I am glad your mishap did not result in an injury. You could not have repeated it with the SawStop. I've had mine for almost a decade and am familiar with it but don't have any stake in their business.

The saw has 3 switches.

The first one is the lockout switch to use when the saw needs to be locked out from the mains for blade changes or to safety the saw against unauthorized use.

The second switch is the one that you turn on to activate the braking system. If it isn't turned on and the saw's braking system active and functioning correctly, the saw can't be started.

The last switch is to turn on the saw for a cut. You need to pull it out to turn on the saw and when you want to stop, it is pushed in. Placement of it makes stopping with a bump with your left leg convenient but deliberate. I can't recall ever bumping it with my thigh accidentally while I was working. When in the off position the paddles edges are recessed except for the bottom quarter of the paddle. That keeps it from being snagged along the side like you did with your saw and being turned on. You have to put your finger under it from the bottom to pull it out.

The braking system is always sensing even when the blade isn't turning but it won't fire unless spinning. When the blade is touched while stationary by you or something that would fire the brake the status/diagnostic lights flash at the switch and it won't let you start the saw. It is the way you check to see if the saw brake would activate if the material will set it off. Very wet wood, metal, wet pressure treated wood etc. For materials that would set it off you have to turn a bypass key with one hand and pull out the paddle with the other and wait a few seconds before it starts. You need to do this every time you push the paddle back in again. (guess I have to amend and say there are 4 switches.) So in the case where you touch the stopped blade with the tape measure to set a stop block and by some fluke your leg hair managed to pull out the paddle switch, the brake would detect the contact and prevent power from the switch from turning the saw on. There would be no brake activation so you wouldn't need a new blade and brake.

Now if you made a cut and turned off the saw to move the stop to a new position and while the blade was spinning down you, in a moment of inattention, touched the blade with a few revolutions to go it will fire the brake. I know because I did that once and only once. :doh: The tape measure was unharmed by the way. I learned you don't work when tired, you're not fully alert and to be patient. It is always a good idea to keep a spare brake around too. Just in case. ;)

So the ultimately safe way to work would be to turn off the second switch before getting your hands near the blade when setting stops. It will slow you down some because it takes a few moments to power up and run the self diagnostic before you get the green light to switch on the saw.

If you ever do get a SawStop you will not regret it as it is a well made machine.

Pete

I have recently upgraded to a SawStop. I've never had a significant kick-back or near-miss with my old saw as I really try to be very prepared and careful to the point of pedantic. So why bother with the SawStop? Unforseen, unexpected or freek occurences. Not all accidents are due to inexperience, negligence or stupidity, and the cost (personal and dollars) far outweigh the cost of the SawStop for me.

Well done for raising your near-miss with the community though, and great advice in response in how to reduce the likelihood of your event happening again.

P.S. Regardless of the safety increase in the sawstop, what an upgrade from the little Jet I've been using previously! You won't be disjointed if you go that way.

[edit] haha, the last line was supposed to read “you won’t be disappointed...” but got autocorrected. So while “disjointed” wasn’t my intended word, it's a rather apt mistake given the topic! :)

My old man was a joiner for 70 years, I can remember him scolding me as a kid (and reminding me for the next 45 years)for not turning the power off or unplugging a tool when doing anything to the cutting edges, I still do it now, and have seen several near misses and accidents from people adjusting things or working on blades etc and actually turning the unit on. It’s a good safe habit to get into.

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Originally Posted by riverbuilder

My old man was a joiner for 70 years, I can remember him scolding me as a kid (and reminding me for the next 45 years)for not turning the power off or unplugging a tool when doing anything to the cutting edges, I still do it now, and have seen several near misses and accidents from people adjusting things or working on blades etc and actually turning the unit on. It’s a good safe habit to get into.

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Your Dad was a smart man - mine was like that too and I am thankful every day for his example, in deed and kind and for his occasional friendly "clip over the ear."

Inexplicably sensibility and a lot of trade safety knowledge is seemingly lost in our modern approach to "idiot proofing" tools and processes.

One very good example is the QLD Gov'ts current crack down on WH&S in the stone masonry industry and particularly "dry cutting engineered stone." DOH!

How long have wet cutting saws been about? Since about the 1930's then we had an "on site dry cutting innovation" in the 1980's that really gained momentum from about 2000 on. Now almost every tradie and DIYer has a 4" diamond blade for their angle grinder, and they use them dry cutting. Marketers made $$$, lots of $$$ as sensibility, safe work practices and PPE went out the window for the sake of convenience and supposed time and $$$ savings. The incidence of exposure of users and bystanders, to fine stone dusts has never been higher! Silicosis is a nasty way to die.

But back to this close call - how much of a real inconvenience is it to turn off and unplug a machine, i.e. table or band saw, whilst changing a blade or whilst performing any setting up that requires direct measurement to the blade?