Red cedar table

A contact yesterday sold this old red cedar table knowing I was in the middle of reconditioning a younger version. Interesting to me was the additional frame work underneath. Obviously it was setup for drawers but later converted to just being a table. I'm looking for advice on stripping and especially what to finish it with.

My plan for stripping was to apply chemical stripper and scrape off with plastic scraper.
Then I would continue with mentholated spirits soaked steel wool.
Finally wash down with warm water.

All advice greatly appreciated especially on how to properly handle red cedar.

If anyone could give me guidance on understanding the probable date of manufacture I would appreciate it also.
Cheers,
Nick
Attachment 428421Attachment 428422

As a guess I would suggest it could be 1900-1920s. What is the edge of the table top like? Any photos the right way up?
David

Early 1900's would be a safe guess. Your stripping method may not necessarily need to be as harsh as a chemical stripper. If the original finish is old school it will be easily removed(stripping (See stripping French polish and shellac.
When it comes to handling Cedar it requires a gentle touch. Being an extremely soft timber dings and bruises are easily caused through rough handling. An old blanket spread over the bench helps to prevent damage.
Before going too far with surface preparation, give serious consideration to steaming out dings in the surface, rather than sanding back to a smooth surface. An easy way of doing this is to use the table as an ironing board for a couple of sessions. The steam created will raise any dings and you are getting two jobs done at once. If you, like me, has a wife who does the ironing, you get the added bonus of getting the job done for you.
I never use steel wool on cedar. In fact I don't use it at all. As apprentices, looking through a strong magnifier at a piece fine sanded with steel wool and the myriad of tiny fibres stuck in the surface was enough for me. I know almost everybody uses steel wool, but I have my reasons.
As to finish. This very much depends on the usage to which you intend subjecting the table. French polish gives a beautiful, deep finish, but highly susceptible to spills. Shellac is a tried and proven contender, but again, has susceptability. The moder n poly options give an armour like coating but do little to feed the underlying timber. If damaged poly requires stripping and resurfacing. Spray lacquer gives a quick, no nonsense finish with reasonable resistance to liquid damage and can be recoated. Ease and speed of application makes this one of the most popular furniture finishes available.
My favourite - Oil. A good multi coat oil finish is hard to beat as an all round contender. For a table destined for a bit of hard use it is hard to go past a concocted oil such as Tru oil. Easy to apply, recoat anytime and the more coats the deeper the shine.

From the photos, and without seeing the top surface, it looks like an aged shellac finish. Test it with a rag wet with metho. If it rubs off or softens it is shellac. Cleaning back an old shellac finish is very easy. As rustynail says, steel wool should never be used on bare timber for the reasons that he gives. I do use 0000 steel wool on a well polished shellac surface to soften back the shine if the client wants that effect, but not otherwise. The synthetic scrubbing pads (Scotchbrite and copies thereof) come in a range of coarseness but even the common green one works well.

If the surface is shellac then ironing on it will impart a shellac glaze on the underneath of anything ironed - so strip the shellac before steam ironing. I use a cheap $12 iron with 'shot of steam' and a front spray to remove dings. I often protect the surface with a thin clean cotton cloth so as not to get burn marks.

Everyone has their own ideas as to finish. if you wish to treat the table as an antique, fine piece of furniture then, IMHO, there is only one suitable finish, which is shellac applied with a rubber. That said, UBeaut's Hard Shellac cross-links and sets to become quite water and heat resistant so it is possible to 'have your cake and eat it too'-- traditional finish plus useability.

I have numerous shellac/French Polished pieces of furniture in my house, including some I have polished myself (one large Huon Pine kitchen table made in 2012) and shellac is a much harder-wearing surface than many would have you believe, and is also easily repairable. As long as spills are wiped up promptly food and even hot tea do not leave a mark - and that is standard brown button shellac, not even the hard Shellac. These tables have survived my own children and many clumsy visitors.

If you are intending the table for very rough and tumble use/abuse then the oil finishes will certainly give a very resistant and easily repairable finish, though not appropriate for antiques. I would add Rustins Danish oil to your consideration if you are planning on oil.

Good luck
David

Yep, I misunderstood about the steel. Thank you for clearing that up (I did find and buy 0000) :) Note this is a 3 plank top. The legs have minimal knocks. I just found a tack in the lose plank (that will be interesting getting that out butt I will be gentle).
I sprayed a couple of spots with MLS and this a was a very different experience. I'm used to a thick gel resulting - is this because the other times I've done this the shellac is thick or also has the silicones and waxes added? This time there is just a slight feeling of gel. I gently scratched with my finger nails and the gel readily came off. I think clean with Scotchbrite will be easy. I have found one spot that resisted being cleaned and being darker it could be oil (?).

There definitely are cracks started.

I like the idea of French polishing as it always looks great to me on silky oak.
Pictures below show the table top edge and the table top.

Thanks for the great advice I'm so glad I asked first.

Cheers,
Nick

By the way how will I be able to get the surface with the red coming out the same as the side of the board shows?
Attachment 428453Attachment 428454Attachment 428455Attachment 428456

If the table is to be treated with respect, there is nothing wrong with a French polish finish. Looking at the surface pics I would hazard a guess at a shellac finish having been used in the past. As X said, easy to remove with metho. This should be done prior to any steaming of bumps and dings.
Steaming is very successful with cedar due to the softness of the timber and even quite major blemishes can be coaxed out with a bit of perseverance.
The dark patches on the table surface may well be oil or candle wax stains. Now these may cause you to rethink your proposed surface finish. If these stains cannot be removed, they will be evident through any finish other than an oil - well that's my experience. X may wish to elaborate. These are the situations were I have often had to stray from convention and use an oil finish to prevent the job looking like a piece of poo ticket. To me, a French polished table should be without defect, otherwise the beautiful subtleties of the finish are lost and the result is little more than an exercise in french polishing and it would have been far easier to hit it with a bit of shellac.
Remember, water on these old finishes is one thing, add alcohol to the mix and you have another stripping process underway. We call it the "Polishers Ring" - Ugly but inevitable.

Thank you RustyNail. I will clean and discover the possible stories. I really appreciate the explanation on why there may be a few patches different in colour and reaction. Candles .... I love it.
I actually ave another red cedar table (definitely much younger) that I have removed the thick varnish from and it maybe be the candidate for French polishing :) I really would like to see how red cedar looks with French polishing just as I did with silky oak.

Cheers,
Nick

French polish and cedar are a good match.

One of the great things about antiques is that they have patina, the signs of use and abuse, which is witness to their long and useful life. I recommend a balance between restoration (make like new) and conservation (preserve the patina and age marks). Many modern woodworkers would disagree with me and sand surfaces back to smooth, raw timber. However, doing that to antiques that decreases their value (both aesthetically IMHO and $$). I have a small, fine quality 1820s Blackwood table (with Huon Pine string inlay) that spent part of its life in a chook shed. It was used as a cutting board so has deep scores across the top and has had a 44 gallon drum end indent on the face. I love the patina and all the marks, others may not, but they add to its value for me.

Your table has been used and abused, and is faded by sunlight. So, answer your question about how to have all the table as dark cedar as the edges of the boards you would have to sand back to raw timber. I wouldn't recommend it.

As rn has said, oil and wax marks will show through a French Polish finish. I would not mind that, but it is your table so your decision. If the marks are candle wax that has soaked into the timber they may resist oil and most other finishes. I use brown button shellac - the raw form of shellac and it has a high natural wax content so will probably bond to a waxy surface better than most finishes. Oil could be a different problem.

BTW, thinking of candles, over the years I have seen (and own some) tables and other furniture such as sideboards where a candle has fallen over and burned indentations in the surface - great patina!

For me the older the piece the more important it is to have the patina. This is where I love to imagine the story behind it. Recently I mentioned to my wife the cuts into the top of her family's old kitchen drawers. She immediately told me the sotry of her brothers doing this in the early 70's and getting into trouble for it. No need to imagine here just document the history. The most I want to do to old pieces is fix things like drawer runners and hinges.

For more modern pieces I think I enjoy making it look like new again.

On another matter I think you told me about reversing the cupping for table and desk tops. I have experimented with a few now and really happy to recover Tasmanian oak desk tops and silky oak table top. I did get distracted and leave one in the very hot sun for many hours - Wow I was on the way to making a barrel. Luckily a few gentle session more and it was back to flat. I'm very happy to be learning about the wood.

Many thanks for the advice. I will have to take a break from the table but will return with photo's as I clean the top off. As far as the red goes I have plenty of other pieces to polish in the house now and will just appreciate the red in them :)

Patina - Now there is an interesting word. I too like to retain as much of the natural history of an old piece rather than taking to it with a belt sander and bully it into submission. Marks indicating abuse are another matter. This, to me is not patina, more an insult. If it can be removed without sacrifice it will be. Many pieces exhibited for sale in antique shops have been wiped over with a bit of polish and little else has been done to assist them in the journey into yet another century. This tardiness is often referred to as patina. I think not. As an apprentice, my job was to restore. Not to cover up or gloss over. To do this type of work in today's market would see one starve to death. Very few would be prepaired to pay for the time required to bring an item back to it's original glory. Working for museums is very different than for an antique shop.
I loved restoration. It kept me in the trade, otherwise I would have walked away feeling very disillusioned.
A short story: Cutting timber on the north coast of NSW, we were asked to mill an old cedar tree that had been dislodged by a recent landslide. Upon sawing the log we came across a led ball set deep into the timber. The property owner informed us that a man had gone "missing" from the place, early last century. Local rumour had it that the owner, returning home from a month away working (cedar cutting,) had found the gent in a compromising position with his wife. Removing him from the house, he allegedly tied him to a nearby tree and shot him! Disposing of the body who knows where.
The ball bearing slab (please excuse the pun) was made centre piece in a dining room table for the property owner and still, to the best of my knowledge, stimulates interesting conversation among guests. Now that's patina!

Each to their own rn. My approach is indeed very museum-orientated and influenced. All the top antique dealers follow and value that approach to obtain the highest value for top-class furniture. I certainly would not go as far as the Tasmanian Museum and Art Gallery approach to their very early cedar couch, which they kept with a broken leg for many years (though I have heard they have had repairs done since) and I reupholster (but using original style fabrics and traditional teased horsehair stuffing) to make chairs comfortable to sit on. Furniture needs to be functional and of use for most people's homes. However, the least-possible intervention to achieve that is best IMHO. Each piece tells a story, and has its history in its marks and defects, which a coat of wax can enhance (for me). It adds another layer to it.

I'm lucky that I have bought cheap younger furniture to learn and practice on and I don't mind removing the patina from it to learn about the wood and techniques for repairing it. For the older nearing or antique furniture I just want to go slow and learn to make the right decisions. Handles is something I struggle with as the old thin metal handles so often seem to be so broken and pieces missing I can't safely reuse them. This is where I concede to change to enable use.

How I wish I could remove the patina from my body :) I would definitely go for renewal :)

John Williamson, "He's got wrinkles, from smiling, he feels lucky and free."

Most interesting and informative discussion fellas.

I have done a bit of restoration work but have never used french polish as a finish. I am just too timid to approach it!

Eirst resto. job was an old NSW teacher's desk, hoop pine, finished in the varnish used in the 40s. I found it easy enough to remove
using stripper an elbow grease. I washed and then gave a light sanding because I wanted to leave the history of the piece in place.
It has Fine cut marks, red and blue ink stains, tracing wheel marks and the odd ding in the top.
Coated with Wattyl Danish Oil, which after30 years needs a touch up.

Second job was a wardrobe I bought the wife as a wedding gift. It had a badly degraded french mirror in one door and wooden panels in the other.
The whole unit was coated in black varnish which I again removed with stripper. The timer is, I am fairly certain, kauri pine. Again Danish oil was the
preferred finish. The stripping revealed several oil stains that were impossible to remove but the Danish went over them quite well. I suspected the unit had stood in a shed next to a work bench for some time because of the location of the oil stains. Checking with the second hand dealer I purchased the unit from proved my assumption to be correct.
The Mirror and wooden panels were replaced withe glass and glass shelves added so the wardrobe became a sort of china cabinet.

My wife brought a table and chairs across with her from Brazil. The chairs were a badly restored mess with ever joint being loose, despite them being braced with metal L brackets!!!
I was about to launch into the stripping process with stripper when an upholsterer mate turned up. The chairs were coated withe very crazed black something. My friend asked for a razor blade and began to strip the varnish with that!. Quick and easy! Very little sanding required. I had to dismantle each chair and rebuild, but that is another story.
Once again Danish oil, but this time over a hard timber called peanut wood,

I Like Danish oil!!

I was approached by a long standing client with a lovely old cedar dresser she had recently purchased from a well respected dealer. The piece had become plural _ big time. It consisted of a jumble of timber tied together with a bit of twine! She asked if I could restore it for her. I said I could but why should I when it was the responsibility of the dealer to supply a fit for purpose article. I explained that any work performed by me would be charged to her, which, in my view, was unfair. I advised her to take it back to the supplier and give them the job. After all, they were the experts.
The explanation given was that this was a very old item and in the interest of keeping it "original" they had not attempted any repairs. But they could now see that work needed to be done and they would perform the necessary. How bloody condescending!
A lovely old piece now takes it's place in a loving household. And yet another antique dealer gets struck off my list of go to suppliers.

I have only used Danish oil on some of my old hand saw handles I started restoring. Which reminds me that I need to get back to them (30+)

This is one of my slower jobs. I'm still considering replacing the side and putting 2 drawers back in as was original.

My question is I was to seal some of the surface damage I have found. I want to use hide glue and then apply shellac. Is this something that will work or fail?

Thinned hide glue can be applied and is what’s known as a Glue size . It will act as a barrier and the shellac won’t soak in as deep so the piece will stay lighter in colour because of that .It can fix a rough loose surface or be good at sealing end grain . If the glue is to thick like at it’s normal thickness for glueing wood , it could cause problems .

Your on the money with a loose splinter piece I was wanting to protect from being pulled up in the future.