Unknown Wooden Top Needs Finishing

G'day,

My wife bought an old kitchen trolly from savers the other day so I can use it as a taboret for my art studio. I took the top off and sanded the top back to 180grit. I'm not sure what wood it is (looks like pine?), however all I want to do is give it a nice beech colour and satin finish. Unfortunately I'm not that experienced with finishing so I'd really appreciate everyones expert advice on what to get from bunnings.

Things that I have on hand are Feast&Watson Sanding Sealer, Feast&Watson Wipe On Poly, MinWax Wood Finish - golden Oak (About 150mL's left), tub of Feast&Watson Cabnaura Wax.

Here art some photo's of the

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/x...psy0abjk0j.jpg

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/x...psb10vc5bf.jpg

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/x...pswc1deuzr.jpg

Here is a photo of the colour I want:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e1049999ae.jpg

Hi and welcome.

Firstly, whatever you decide to use as the finish, 180 grit is too harsh, in my opinion. I would look to start at 100 or probably 150g then go to something like 180g, 240g and ending up at 400g. So its 100g for a start, then 150, next 180, 240 and 400g Each time you finish using a grit be certain that the result you have achieved, is smoother than the one before. The item should be wiped down by rubbing Methanol (Metho) soaked rags and then soft cotton rags to remove oil and other things that might alter the effect of the finish. What you have just done is produce a robust finish with very little colour. If you find that you do want to have a different finish (Gold Oak oil) then add it now following the Manufacturer's instructions. Then add a sealing layer using the material (Your Wattyl Golden Oak) used to wipe down the wood after final sanding (see above).
So in your case, sand to 100 grit, then use the next few grits (150,180,240,400 grit)to reach a smooth clean finish. Then add Golden Oak oil to the wood and rub it in with a cotton cloth. Once dry, use something like oil of one type of another or wipe On Poly, or use something else.
If you want to talk about it, you can contact me via email or PM (here)

Hope that's clear and helps.

Regards,

Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LGS

Hi and welcome.

Firstly, whatever you decide to use as the finish, 180 grit is too harsh, in my opinion. I would look to start at 100 or probably 150g then go to something like 180g, 240g and ending up at 400g. So its 100g for a start, then 150, next 180, 240 and 400g Each time you finish using a grit be certain that the result you have achieved, is smoother than the one before. The item should be wiped down by rubbing Methanol (Metho) soaked rags and then soft cotton rags to remove oil and other things that might alter the effect of the finish. What you have just done is produce a robust finish with very little colour. If you find that you do want to have a different finish (Gold Oak oil) then add it now following the Manufacturer's instructions. Then add a sealing layer using the material (Your Wattyl Golden Oak) used to wipe down the wood after final sanding (see above).
So in your case, sand to 100 grit, then use the next few grits (150,180,240,400 grit)to reach a smooth clean finish. Then add Golden Oak oil to the wood and rub it in with a cotton cloth. Once dry, use something like oil of one type of another or wipe On Poly, or use something else.
If you want to talk about it, you can contact me via email or PM (here)

Hope that's clear and helps.

Regards,

Rob

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Hi Rob, thanks alot for your reply. One thing that worries me is some area's of the top seem very porous and soft. How would you suggest I go about dealing with this before I apply a stain.

You can use a sanding sealer to seal the wood before applying a stain. There are a number of products on the market and some have particles that will seal the pores. I have never used them myself and can not advise you on what to expect. I had a friend that would use one on his wood turnings and the results were very smooth.

For me I have used the sanding sealer(Shellac based) from Ubeaut or I have used shellac that I mixed myself. If I make up a Shellac as a sanding sealer it would be normally be very thinned out.

You also mention that you think that this top is made from pine and if is it I would suggest that you use Shellac as that would stop blotching. Personally after looking at the photos I don't think this is pine.

The top is definitely finger jointed and the wood almost certainly plantation grown.
My guess is a northern hemisphere species that is not radiata. It might be birch.

But agree with sealing before applying a stain. Because you already have some, I suggest the feast watson sanding sealer.

Hi Sheeny,

I haven't needed to use a sanding sealer, except once about 12 years ago. Most of my stuff is done using new, solid hardwoods. Christos and Ian seem to have it right. I would use the Feast Watson as well. In the package insert (online) they say to sand up to the next from last grit, which means that, according to my system, adding the sanding sealer and use the 240 pad, then when you've done that, add the colour and sand when dry, with the 400 grit.

Probably the easiest thing to do from there would be use shellac as the top coat and rub it back, or to add something like pure Tung Oil over the top. Tung Oil is my choice for finishing. I buy it as Hard burnishing Oil. But that is not available in the Northern Hemisphere, I believe. Shellac is probably the go, though, in this situation.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Guys, Thanks for all your replies. Whats the difference between the Feast Watson Sanding Sealer and the Timber Primer, and which one would be better for me to apply so as to get an even stain?.

I think its ya standard imported south east Asian specialty. Rubberwood as is generally known in the deep south of Vic. Para wood. 90% of imported furniture is made from it It seems. Nearly always stained due to its light colour.

Yes, ozka is on the money. It looks very much like rubberwood - which is really the trees that rubber comes from. Once they stop producing a good flow of latex the trees are cut down and used as timber - hence the small section sizes and the finger jointing. Pines (conifer bearing species) do not have pores (botanically known as vessels) they only have the much finer textured fibres botanically known as tracheids. Yes, yes, I know, too much information but you just can't keep a botanist down/quiet, as they say (or should). What this 'waffle' means for you is significant however, conifers are usually resinous and do not take stains well. Flowering plants (e.g. rubberwood) should take stain well - though I have never tried. BTW, most poly stains are pigments rather than true 'stains' and will work just fine.

I bought a number of rubberwood topped benches from Aldi for my wife, who is an artist (they were very good value). They are all finished in some kind of poly and all are serving very well. They are not stained, AFAIK, but do look pretty good as the finish deepens the colour. many (OK most) clear oil-based polyurethanes will do that.

I know that you have the golden oak finish but I suggest you test on the underside first to check if it is the colour that you want. One alternative is Baltic Pine - that is what your example looks like to me.

Good luck. i do not think you will need it as whatever hard-wearing finish that you apply will be fit for purpose and, with time, you will most likely be happy with.

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas

Yes, ozka is on the money. It looks very much like rubberwood - which is really the trees that rubber comes from. Once they stop producing a good flow of latex the trees are cut down and used as timber - hence the small section sizes and the finger jointing. Pines (conifer bearing species) do not have pores (botanically known as vessels) they only have the much finer textured fibres botanically known as tracheids. Yes, yes, I know, too much information but you just can't keep a botanist down/quiet, as they say (or should). What this 'waffle' means for you is significant however, conifers are usually resinous and do not take stains well. Flowering plants (e.g. rubberwood) should take stain well - though I have never tried. BTW, most poly stains are pigments rather than true 'stains' and will work just fine.

I bought a number of rubberwood topped benches from Aldi for my wife, who is an artist (they were very good value). They are all finished in some kind of poly and all are serving very well. They are not stained, AFAIK, but do look pretty good as the finish deepens the colour. many (OK most) clear oil-based polyurethanes will do that.

I know that you have the golden oak finish but I suggest you test on the underside first to check if it is the colour that you want. One alternative is Baltic Pine - that is what your example looks like to me.

Good luck. i do not think you will need it as whatever hard-wearing finish that you apply will be fit for purpose and, with time, you will most likely be happy with.

David

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Hi David, Thanks for your expert advice and information. In regard to the Baltic Pine, the only Baltic Pine at Bunnings I can see are the Bondall Monocel Stain & Varnish. I only really want the stain so do you or anyone else have a suggestion for a close-ish match for the colour I'm after?.

Thanks,

Sam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LGS

The item should be wiped down by rubbing Methanol (Metho)

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PLEASE NOTE:

Metho is the shortened or slang version of Methylated Spirits (denatured alcohol, ETHANOL) NOT Methanol.

Methanol (aka wood alcohol) is highly toxic, unlike ETHANOL (Methylated Spirits, aka denatured alcohol).

5% - 10% of Methanol used to be used to be added to Ethanol to denature it making it undrinkable hence the name Methylated Spirits (Metho). Other denaturants are more often used today, like: isopropyl alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone and denatonium.

Please..... DO NOT USE METHANOL.

Cheers - Neil:U

My apologies, Neil. I am aware of the toxicity of Methanol CH3OH and would not have recommended it for anyone to use. But in a senior moment, I recommended it on the basis that I have always referred to Methylated Spirits as 95% ethanol. The use of "Metho" as a descriptor was wrong.
Metho | Define Metho at Dictionary.com

My apologies, once again.

Regards,

Rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sheeny71

Hi David, Thanks for your expert advice and information. In regard to the Baltic Pine, the only Baltic Pine at Bunnings I can see are the Bondall Monocel Stain & Varnish. I only really want the stain so do you or anyone else have a suggestion for a close-ish match for the colour I'm after?.

Thanks,

Sam

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Hi Sam,

I use mostly Wattyl Craftsman interior spirit stains and have an old can of one labelled as 'Baltic Pine" which I have used to stain pine and other timbers to that kind of colour. Being a spirit based stain it is only suitable for interior use (i.e. would fade in sunlight/outdoors use). It is strange stuff as when you pour it it looks almost purple - but on the wood it is golden brown. If you use it you should, like all new stains and finishes, try it on the underside or on a scrap of the same timber beforehand to gain confidence it is what you want. The last time that I used it was in restoring/repairing an Art Deco/Art Moderne Queensland Maple coffee table, which I posted a thread on in the restorations forum.

Attachment 412533 The area that I repaired and stained - lower right hand edge of the column - is very small in this photo (i.e. most of the photo shows the original colour) but matches the column colour in particular (column is darker than the top, which has faded). The repair was stained with Craftsman Baltic Pine mixed with shellac.

Well I went ahead and applied some F&W Timber Primer, waited arround 30minutes and applied the stain. Heres the results:

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/x...psprdrgdgw.jpg

I'm not that familiar with what a normal stain should look like but I was expecting it to be more uniform all one colour. Have I done something wrong?. If so what can I do to rectify it?

Thanks for any help, Sam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sheeny71

Well I went ahead and applied some F&W Timber Primer, waited arround 30minutes and applied the stain.

I'm not that familiar with what a normal stain should look like but I was expecting it to be more uniform all one colour. Have I done something wrong?. If so what can I do to rectify it?

Thanks for any help, Sam

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Hi Sam

from the Feast Watson instructions for Timber Primer -- Allow surface to dry for 12 hours before over-coating with desired finish

That omission will be one of your problems. But the result you now have might be as good as you can expect. From here it looks as though each piece of wood is relatively consistent in colour. Just that with the finger jointing there are a great number of small pieces all a slightly different colour.

"polishing the dull side" as Fletty would advise, once it's in place and covered with artist's paper, perhaps it won't be very noticeable.

I think 30 minutes wait was a little too short.

I am guessing that your thoughts would have been in line of a more constant colour for the whole top. This type of joinery is always going to give you some variations but I don't think it looks bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Christos

I think 30 minutes wait was a little too short.

I am guessing that your thoughts would have been in line of a more constant colour for the whole top. This type of joinery is always going to give you some variations but I don't think it looks bad.

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Is there a way of stripping the stain and having another go with a weaker stain?.

Hi Sam,

I agree with ian. Also, that looks like a good result to me, and pretty normal for spirit stain, but then I like to see some (lots of) variation in my timber. Timber is naturally very variable and absorbs stain differently depending on grain direction and other considerations such as density. With finger jointed tops like the rubberwood the grain goes in different directions, 'higgledy piggledly' and the density varies from piece to piece.

The only way to get a more uniform result would be to use a pigmented 'stain' rather than a spirit or water stain. The latter two are absorbed into the timber (often differentially) but the pigment-based 'stains' and finishes - usually used outdoors in the sunlight - will provide a more uniform look.

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sheeny71

Is there a way of stripping the stain and having another go with a weaker stain?.

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There is but that would require you to sand the finish and then use the same type of medium(eg Mentholated Sprits) on a clean cloth to pull out the stain. There will be a chance that some of the stain will not come out of the wood. Personally I don't think it is worth while spending so much time removing this stain. If you really don't like this top then you can make another top and use this one on another project. Your options are not always limited to the one piece.

Try using the coffee table for a year or so and see if this grows on you.

The coffee table that I made for my house is always covered with paper or magazines so no one sees it.

Hi Sam,

I agree with Christos. If you have not sealed it then just a good soak with metho (denatured alcohol) will reduce the intensity of the stain - except that it will still be unevenly stained because of the changes in grain direction. Pour the metho on liberally and let it soak in then mop up with rags or paper towel. Good ventilation will help prevent drunkenness!

If you have applied a seal coat of some kind that needs to be removed first. As I said above, the only way to get a more even stain is with a pigment finish as that coats everything.

No one can see the colour of my wife's benches because they are covered with plastic and paper as well as a lot of art materials, so the actual finish may not be important in practice - as for Christos' coffee table.

David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas

Hi Sam,

I agree with Christos. If you have not sealed it then just a good soak with metho (denatured alcohol) will reduce the intensity of the stain - except that it will still be unevenly stained because of the changes in grain direction. Pour the metho on liberally and let it soak in then mop up with rags or paper towel. Good ventilation will help prevent drunkenness!

If you have applied a seal coat of some kind that needs to be removed first. As I said above, the only way to get a more even stain is with a pigment finish as that coats everything.

No one can see the colour of my wife's benches because they are covered with plastic and paper as well as a lot of art materials, so the actual finish may not be important in practice - as for Christos' coffee table.

David

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G'day Dave, I decided to strip the stain and bleach some of the finger joins to make things more even. I know a few of you might think I'm crazy, my wife would totally agree there!. Anyway whats done is done now so I'm back to square one with the top. This time I plan to apply both sanding sealer and timber primer but I don't know in which order, this is where I need some advice. Both Timber Primer and Sanding Sealer are Feast Watson.

I will be keeping this thread updated until the very end of the project, along with photo's at different stages. Also, I have another project after this one (oh no I hear you gasp!), its an old chair which I picked up second hand and needs sanding and finishing but no staining this time!, I'll need some advice from you good people again.

Thanks,

Sam

Hi Sam, I have no experience with Feast Watson sanding sealer or timber primer so I will have to hand over to the paint specialists.

With the chair it may be a good idea to post photos before you do anything to it. There are quite a few expereinced restorers here.

Good luck
David

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xanthorrhoeas

Hi Sam, I have no experience with Feast Watson sanding sealer or timber primer so I will have to hand over to the paint specialists.

With the chair it may be a good idea to post photos before you do anything to it. There are quite a few expereinced restorers here.

Good luck
David

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I'll be starting a new thread for the chair, I'd be grateful of any input from you on that project too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sheeny71

I'm back to square one with the top. This time I plan to apply both sanding sealer and timber primer but I don't know in which order, this is where I need some advice. Both Timber Primer and Sanding Sealer are Feast Watson.

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Hi Sam, please don't.

For what you are trying to achieve, you do not need the Timber Primer.
Repeat -- leave the Timber Primer in the can.

Having sanded back to bare wood, give the top a coat of sanding sealer. Let the sealer dry for longer than recommended, then lightly sand.
This should give you a pretty uniform base onto which to apply your stain. Be warned though, it's unlikely that you will get an uniform colour.

This material is used a lot in commercial contexts and the usual approach is to spray a varnish stain (ie stain mixed into the varnish). It's probably not the ideal finish in most people's mind, but it overcomes the patchiness. Spraying guarantees an even coat thickness, but with this flat topped table a brush will work.

I was just wondering, is there a process in which you use two or three different strength's of stain on different parts of the wood to even out/compensate for the variations in wood light/dark patches?. If there is, would I just use turps to thin the stain mixture?.

If the stain is a spirit stain then you would thin it with metho. Oil stains are thinned with turps.

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their help, suggestions and advice. As promised I have uploaded some photo's of the final finish. In the end I decided to use some of the F&W stain thinned down to give it a lighter tone, then I gave the top 7 coats of Rustoleum Clear Spray, wet sanded it to a semi-gloss sheen. I'm fairly happy with the finish, however in the future I will use a 2pack spray as its alot harder wearing.

Attachment 415990Attachment 415991Attachment 415992

Now thats over, I need some help restoring an old chair!.

Well done, it looks good and very serviceable.