Katrina verses the Tsunami

I was watching the TV this evening about the aftermath of civil unrest in New Orleans (looting, rapes, murder etc). I can't remember reports of similar behaviour of the tsunami victims. I am not talking about the small village environments but the much larger towns which the tsunami hit - the best comparison that could be made to a western city.

Perhaps I'm wrong and there were reports. Perhaps the press are beating up isolated incidents in New Orleans or perhaps a rapes and murders are common in New Orleans and it's just that there is a different backdrop (the devestation).

I am not condeming the people of New Orleans and they certainly have my sympathy but it just made me feel sad (and angry) that such actions occur on top of such a tragedy.

What do you people think?

Burn

isn't it amazing how the "civilized" people react when they are deprived of their "privilages"

lets try and disect this phenonemon:

asia by and large is "poor"

america by and large has a very large distinction between the "very rich" and the "moderately poor" thus the filthy poor are constantly reminded just by looking out thier wondows how pleasant it is to own a ferrari or wear the latest gucci accessory.

I say moderately poor as I feel that the poor in america have it far better than say the poor in bangladesh or thailand for instance...

the americans by and large are also far better educated (even the poor go to grammar schools) so can mostly read and importantly understand how to control the remote on the teev. Thus they are exposed to the "Consumer society must haves". Perhaps when they see the oppotunity to get these consumer goods suplied by great equaliser, they cant help themselves.

In asia on the other hand the poor dont have teevs or there aint much to covet.

on the other hand I could be wrong, perhaps the looters were justshot and not reported in asia.

ive been wrong before.... perhaps its just the dog and 2 meals syndrome - Ie they say a dog is only 2 meals from being a wild animal, perhaps its the same for humans, we may not have teeth but we have brains that are far more deadly.... when was the last time a boxer invented napalm ?

cheers

Perhaps it's an outcome of the higher levels of gun ownership in America: i.e. gangs shooting at rescue helicopters etc.

dont think that it is only the seppos that behave like this, in 1998 i lived in katherine which is the 3rd or 4th largest town in the n.t. the katherine river went up 20 odd meters in a couple of days and wasted 70% of the homes and 98% of the business in town and killed at least 5 people. i would have draged at least 20 looters out of business in the main street alone several boats had holes shot in them by the police or raaf from the local base. when some people think that they have a chance to get away with theving they will have a go at it. to my way of thinking looting is the same as kicking someone in the head while they are having a heart atack.

the thing that amazes me is how slow the us govt is to act

peter

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Originally Posted by shep

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the thing that amazes me is how slow the us govt is to act

peter

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As am I! I just hope to god it was/is just a case of complete incompetence rather than what the press is aluding to by asking the question 'Since the main population in New Orleans is African American, did the authorities delay on purpose as there were no votes in it or just that the current administration is just (deadly) racist'.

It scares me even more if the later is true.

Burn

I think it is funny how the US goverment can spend billions of dollars to send a plane half way around the world to bomb a peseant and his camel, but cant help their own people. :confused:

Also with the looters. it puts a whole differnt spin on " Martin Looter King "
Al :confused:

Yes it is a disaster, my condolences to all involved. The people knew that it could happen, most probably had the notion of " not in my life time" and did not plan for the event.

As you can see from the attached pic, it is mainly under mean sea level and trapped between two great bodies of water. Not a place to build with any level of confidence.

The "Authorities" Local/State/Federal had a few days notice to evac the population - tall order I grant, but they also had a few days to preposition rescue services in the area, with supplies.

The residents that could/would not evac - what was to stop them purchasing supplies of tinned food and bottled water? The "Ladies" retirement home featured last night on Aunty's 1900 news - the proprietors could have evac'd or at least made sure that consumables were on hand.

I know handsight is perfect, but a bit of common sense would have been good too!

The greatest nation on earth? And our Little Johnny following Little Junior backside! I fear for this country's future . . .

Rant Off!

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Originally Posted by Zed

perhaps its just the dog and 2 meals syndrome

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I believe that's the answer. Looting and rape happened in S.E. Asia as well. Probably even more than in the US. We just ignore it when it happens in the third world countries. People sort of expect them to loot and rape. It does not make a news item. They do not hold the same expectations about the US, so when they do, we get to hear about that.

Burn, do not be sad or angry. Be concerned. Very concerned. This is human nature. Our civilisation is two meals away from a Mad Max type society. It happened in New Orleans, and it can happen here.

There is a phenomenon known as Maslo's Hierarchy of Need. He states that there are distinct levels ie philanthropy and artistic pursuits at the top and subsistance at the bottom.

These people have gone from near the top level to the bottom overnight, so their values, which are at best a thin veneer, have taken a back seat to survival.

What is not apparent is the media effect where isolated incidents are made to appear like the norm. For instance, during the early days I heard there was widespread shootings and attacks on rescue craft. I looked at dozens of news reports on a RSS feed and (at that time) only saw two documented incidents - the shooting at the Chinook helo and the National Guardsman being shot. This was made to sound like masssive civil disobedience but there was no evidence put forward.

There will be looting, there will be other crime. But please do not blindly believe the media, they are once again doing us a massive disservice. Remember that the majority of the looters are looking for food, water, medicines or shelter. The media are not highlighting this, just the exceptions.

What I would like to know though, is why the world is not assisting more. The USA helps in virtually every major calamity, but when it happens to them the world goes to watch it on TV, I think that is a disgrace. Oh, and our $10m donation, that won't even buy bottled clean water for two days.

There are many facets to this disaster some of which have been glanced over by the above,

While i think looting is very low, I also have never been in a desperate situation like they are in, so I cannot say what I would do if I was in there boots.

I am sure that many did stock up before the hurricane hit, then lost everything when it did, If that was the case, then what option do they have but to try to get food & water to ensure there survival?

Ian

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Originally Posted by shep

the thing that amazes me is how slow the us govt is to act

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Well George W probably needed to finish his holiday.

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Originally Posted by groggy

why the world is not assisting more

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The American Gov doesn't want other countries armed (or otherwise) personel running around inside America taking orders from non-Americans. And they have a major bloody ego problems (American Government)

Every country is willing to help, but money is one thing they do not need from us.

May as well have a bit of a rant.

The US government is slow to react? Compared to what, or to whom? Heard about Tracy? Read the mobilisation reports? Read the looting reports?

The logistics are very complex - you can't fly in help if the airports are unserviceable. You can fly helicopters but they can't use contaminated fuel. You can preposition supplies and troops but where and how? They need food and accomodation, you can't send them in by truck to NO because all freeways are open to exiting traffic only. Rushing in makes the situation worse and, in a short period of time, the rescuers need help too.

As for the US Government not wanting others on their shores, perhaps, but logistics is probably the main issue. Not many countries could get their equipment there in time to be of help anyway. What is important to the US is offers of specialist help, funding relief or whatever they need. Just the offer may be enough.

As for ego problems, geez Mick, that's unfair. Ever seen Australian tourists in action overseas, or the posturing of Aussie pollies?

As for a country with trillions of dollars national debt not wanting financial help, I am not sure of that either.

FYI: The Outstanding USA Public Debt as of 04 Sep 2005 at 02:30:29 AM GMT was: $ 7,946,457,571,471.90

The yanks have their problems, yes. But as someone who has lived there, and in other countries, I think they don't deserve some of the comments.

How many of any of us would not loot food and water if we were starving and nothing seemed to be happening in the way of aid??

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Originally Posted by Groggy

As for ego problems, geez Mick, that's unfair. Ever seen Australian tourists in action overseas

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I wasn't refering to the general public, just the executive.

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Originally Posted by Groggy

As for a country with trillions of dollars national debt not wanting financial help

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Would that be debt owed to American owned banks? Giving America financial aid is like giving family tax benfit to families earing +$1,000,000.00
We should, and I thnk we have offered specialist technical help. We have good managers here who would do a good job getting help where it's needed. (They can have my boss first)

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

I wasn't refering to the general public, just the executive.

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Although I did include our pollies in my original post, I see your point. Our pollies are not ego driven...:rolleyes::)

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

Giving America financial aid is like giving family tax benfit to families earing +$1,000,000.00

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Wealth distribution is not like that at all in America. Something like 90% of the wealth is owned by less than 5% of the populace. The people of NO that remained were generally the poorest of the poor. Not to help them because the others have money is, well, plain wrong. The hard part - as always - will be getting the money to those that really need it.

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Originally Posted by Groggy

May as well have a bit of a rant.

The US government is slow to react? Compared to what, or to whom? Heard about Tracy? Read the mobilisation reports? Read the looting reports?

The logistics are very complex - you can't fly in help if the airports are unserviceable. You can fly helicopters but they can't use contaminated fuel. You can preposition supplies and troops but where and how? They need food and accomodation, you can't send them in by truck to NO because all freeways are open to exiting traffic only. Rushing in makes the situation worse and, in a short period of time, the rescuers need help too.

As for the US Government not wanting others on their shores, perhaps, but logistics is probably the main issue. Not many countries could get their equipment there in time to be of help anyway. What is important to the US is offers of specialist help, funding relief or whatever they need. Just the offer may be enough.

As for ego problems, geez Mick, that's unfair. Ever seen Australian tourists in action overseas, or the posturing of Aussie pollies?

As for a country with trillions of dollars national debt not wanting financial help, I am not sure of that either.

FYI: The Outstanding USA Public Debt as of 04 Sep 2005 at 02:30:29 AM GMT was: $ 7,946,457,571,471.90

The yanks have their problems, yes. But as someone who has lived there, and in other countries, I think they don't deserve some of the comments.

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Right on Groggy!

I saw a guy on an interview the other night, heck WATCH it here....

Why it took so long (I had to use IE, FireFox would not run the vid)

Watch this, you might just have a little understanding of what was going on.

Do you guys have any idea how large an area "90,000 square miles" is, well it is 233,100 square kilometers, that is a large area, and that area is not wet, but DEVESTATED.....

Watch the clip.

BTW, I do not no if you have seen the coverage on how the regular people are helping out, not the stupid government, the people. Their neighbours in Texas have opened their hearts, their wallets and their homes to the displaced people from the storm areas.

BTW, comparisons will be made with the Tsunami, but really, the death toll, while tragic, in the US on the extreme end might hit 10,000 (God forbid) but what was it in the Tsunami? 10 times that? :eek:

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by echnidna

How many of any of us would not loot food and water if we were starving and nothing seemed to be happening in the way of aid??

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I have to agree on the food and water thing, but TV's etc, come on...?
Where do they think they are going to plug them into?

Al :confused:

At the time when there were tens of thousands of people were in need of evacuation, the main focus was on the looters. Not trying to defend these dogs but helping those needing evacuation was surely a higher priority than stopping some lowlife stealing a telly.

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Originally Posted by javali

I believe that's the answer. Looting and rape happened in S.E. Asia as well. Probably even more than in the US. We just ignore it when it happens in the third world countries. People sort of expect them to loot and rape. It does not make a news item. They do not hold the same expectations about the US, so when they do, we get to hear about that.

Burn, do not be sad or angry. Be concerned. Very concerned. This is human nature. Our civilisation is two meals away from a Mad Max type society. It happened in New Orleans, and it can happen here.

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What the????

My colleagues responded to the tsunami crisis and none have even mentioned rapes occuring after the tsunami. Scrounging for food and something to sleep on and under occurred but I wouldnt call it looting.

Is there any evidence of this or am I missing something?

cheers

dazzler

Can't trust the American media.
I suppose the difference between the two is in the wealth differential between the people affected. In the Tsunami everyone was poor, except the tourists.

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Originally Posted by dazzler

Is there any evidence of this or am I missing something?

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4145591.stm
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2005/01/05/story183376.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in665533.shtml
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2137

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Originally Posted by javali

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4145591.stm
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2005/01/05/story183376.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in665533.shtml
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2137

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you right, me wrong......sorry

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

At the time when there were tens of thousands of people were in need of evacuation, the main focus was on the looters. Not trying to defend these dogs but helping those needing evacuation was surely a higher priority than stopping some lowlife stealing a telly.

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I would disagree. It would be very very difficult to engage in a rescue operation whilst chaos and disorder were the norm. Order must come first, then you can get food and water to everyone. Otherwise, only the scum get the relief and the good people who are to scared to come out of hiding die.

Dan

Cyclone Tracy was a similar strength storm to Katrina. It basically destroyed Darwin. It was a smaller scale disaster because of the smaller population.

Darwin was completely evacuated in 5 days.
There was a few incidents of looting but 250 police we sent to Darwin almost immediately as a proactive measure to stop looting.

It took the authorities in the US 6 days to start the evacuation. The troops were sent in well after the problem with lawlessness started.

Andrew Denton made an interesting coment on the radio this morning "I wonder how long it will be before george bush starts his war on the weather" :D

Bush was late getting the news because he was on holidays AGAIN!!! He flew over the area on his way back from holidays. Anyway, I think he watches Fox News. I kept turning over to Fox when the tsunami happened and at 25,000 dead, Fox had a documentary on Jesus. At 50,000 dead they were interviewing santa. The other networks had 24 hour coverage. Fox only started to cover it when they found it was necessary to come to Bush's defence after he was criticised by the Europeans for donating only $10 million.
With his troops dying in a very nasty war have you aver heard of a general going on holidays. 'Commander-in-Chief?' :confused:
As for rapes and looting after the tsunami, it happened. The paedophiles descended on that area of the world like bees to honey. And a few would have been Aussies so we can't take the moral high ground.
Looting happens with any civil unrest and very often involves people who wouldn't normally do that sort of thing.
It's the shooting you have to worry about, but then again if you let your population arm itself then you have to expect a few of them to shoot something when they get pee'd off.