Noise isolating earphones

Not the ones you're probably thinking of; I'm trying to find in-ear headphones that will passively isolate as much noise as proper earplugs. Not active noise cancelling that needs power.

I've always used earplugs instead of muffs because my ears get way to hot and muffs press my safety specs into the side of my head and it's incredibly uncomfortable. I'd like to be able to listen to my own music at work and having ear buds under earmuffs isn't an option I'm enjoying.

Anyone got ideas? Does what I'm looking for even exist?

What you're looking for are Hearos, I used to use them when I was a gig photographer. Cut out all the damaging stuff but still let you enjoy the music.

Edit: sorry just realised you're looking for headphones. These could still be an option of you wanted to use a stereo for the music.

Sensear.
In-Ear Headset | smartPlugs | Sensear

I have the ear muffs. $500+ and they are garbage, absolute garbage. I reckon they made me deaf. They are supposed to have passive noise reduction, while also actively cancelling out machinery noise while amplifying, or just letting through speech. But what happens is that the machinery noise sounds like an old TV which lost reception, and the speech is a garbled mess. I wore them for about 6 months, had a headache everyday after standing infront of a radial arm saw all day in a truss plant. The saw is probably 107-110dB. Swapped to standard earmuffs which I forgot the name of, red Peltor, and no more headaches.

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Not the ones you're probably thinking of; I'm trying to find in-ear headphones that will passively isolate as much noise as proper earplugs. Not active noise cancelling that needs power.

I've always used earplugs instead of muffs because my ears get way to hot and muffs press my safety specs into the side of my head and it's incredibly uncomfortable. I'd like to be able to listen to my own music at work and having ear buds under earmuffs isn't an option I'm enjoying.

Anyone got ideas? Does what I'm looking for even exist?

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Do you mean ear protection shaped like in-ear headphones?

Earphones look like they block noise but they are not really designed toto do this, probably because manufacturers don't really want to block all external stimuli and are deliberately designed to be a bit leaky so as to protect users hearing by letting excess sound out.

The other reason earphones can can't do much to block out external sounds is that to do this properly in-ear fitting hearing protection devices have to fit really snug right INTO the ear canal.

I find listening to music etc with ear phones while working in the shed or driving far too distracting and it has led to several close calls so I no longer do this. Funny thing is I can have the radio pr MP3 player on and that doesn't distract me anywhere as much.

I appreciate you are in a work place with other workers etc - I guess keep looking for a more comfortable set of ear muffs.

Have you though about getting a set of lightweight ear muffs and cutting a groove in the ear surround to enable the glasses arms to fit through the groove?

Thanks guys, but neither of those are what I'm after. Hearos are just earplugs and Sensear are active (needs a battery)

The Shure SE line claim to have up to 37 dB of noise attenuation, but that sounds like BS to me.

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Originally Posted by BobL

Do you mean ear protection shaped like in-ear headphones? I mean in-ear headphones that double as earplugs. Or earplugs that will play music, however you want to think of it.

Earphones look like they block noise but they are not really designed toto do this, probably because manufacturers don't really want to block all external stimuli and are deliberately designed to be a bit leaky so as to protect users hearing by letting excess sound out.

The other reason earphones can can't do much to block out external sounds is that to do this properly in-ear fitting hearing protection devices have to fit really snug right INTO the ear canal.

I find listening to music etc with ear phones while working in the shed or driving far too distracting and it has led to several close calls so I no longer do this. Funny thing is I can have the radio pr MP3 player on and that doesn't distract me anywhere as much. I only use earphones when I'm doing low-risk stuff like sanding.

I appreciate you are in a work place with other workers etc - I guess keep looking for a more comfortable set of ear muffs.

Have you though about getting a set of lightweight ear muffs and cutting a groove in the ear surround to enable the glasses arms to fit through the groove? It's not just the glasses, my ears get way too hot to use muffs for more than 20-30 mins, even in the dead of winter

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Hope that clears it up a bit

Pretty sure the sensear earplugs have NRR 31 when they are switched off. When switched on, it does all that active stuff like suppressing machine noise while allowing speech and buzzers/sirens through. But try before you buy infront of 115db machinery. Because like I say, they sux! :D

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Thanks guys, but neither of those are what I'm after. Hearos are just earplugs and Sensear are active (needs a battery)

The Shure SE line claim to have up to 37 dB of noise attenuation, but that sounds like BS to me.

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Sure is.

It's not possible to get a NRR of more than about 30 dB using anything that sits just in the ear like an ear phones - same with regular ear plugs worn by the average joe.
Ear plugs that are form fitted right down inside the ear canal by a professional audiologist can get to about 33 dB.
Quality HD earmuffs can get to about 33 dB - because these cover the whole ear and are designed to press quite firmly and best of all can usually be fitted properly by most people.

To get more than this you need to wear something like a old school deep sea divers helmet to fully isolate the users head from the sound. This is because at about 35 dB more noise is conducted through the users skull direct to the inner ear than is conducted through the ear canal.

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

Hope that clears it up a bit

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Thanks - I think you are going to be battling to find what you are after.

The sad thing is that there are lots of tradies out there blowing their hearing by using earphones to mask work noise by turning them up more than necessary.
It reminds me of the octogenarian at the mens shed who takes out his hearing air as a form of hearing protection.

The plugs we have at work are NRR 33 (Howard Leight MAX), but NRR dB doesn't equal real world dB according to the internet:
Noise Reduction Ratings Explained | Cooper Safety Supply
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/9...rating-nrr.pdf

NRR 33 may only give 13 dB reduction in real world use

I had some Shure SE 530s a godd few years back and they were overpriced Chinese rubbish, they did block noise fairly well but my cables split after less than a year, I found out quite a while later that the warranty was increased to two years as it was such a common problem on what was an insanely overpriced headphone.

My favourite are X-Ears, they are also Chinese but this is reflected in the price, they are about 1/10th the price of what my Shures sold for and the ones I have had have sounded almost as good. There used to be some crazy discount codes for them but now the good prices are found in their E-bay store, they post from Germany.
I had these Xears® In Ear Kopfhörer aus Bambusholz Earphones Experience 2mm starke Kabel | eBay 2mm Cable? And then some sports ones with the cable up over the ear, I didn't like them all that much, they still sounded nice but they weren't super comfy.

The headphones come in a small bag, no box no booklet telling you that you are the smartest person on earth for buying this product etc etc. You do get one pair of foam tips which are great(will get spares next time) and a few silicon(or similar) ones. They do take a while to burn in and if you go to full volume too quickly you may damage them just like any other speaker.

My Shures did isolate from background noise a bit better, but I still wouldn't buy another one of their products out of spite, hahaha!

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

The plugs we have at work are NRR 33 (Howard Leight MAX), but NRR dB doesn't equal real world dB according to the internet:
Noise Reduction Ratings Explained | Cooper Safety Supply
NRR 33 may only give 13 dB reduction in real world use

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Unfortunately it's a bit more complicated, see
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/z-draft-un...alculation.pdf

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The plugs we have at work are NRR 33

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Leaving aside that the figures are possibly over inflated, the 33 NRR will be for when fitted by a trained audiologists under controlled conditions. Not for when they have been rattling around in a tradies dusty pocket for a couple of days and fitted in a rush.

When using my biggest chainsaw with the modified muffler (116 dB at the operators ear) I use both plugs and muffs.
I cannot actually hear much of a difference between wearing both and just wearing the muffs, but there is a obvious difference between wearing both and just the plugs.
I have been using that chainsaw periodically for the last 7 years and according to my audiologist my general hearing has gone from being below average compared to my peers to above average compared to my peers.
It's not that my hearing has improved, it has just not deteriorated as fast as my peers. I do have some specific frequency issues which apparently are due to exposure to too much 70's rock music.

One guide to purchasing any hearing protection is, does the supplier provide more info just a single figure NRR i.e. audio frequency spectrum data.

whoops dual post

I've the same prob as you Elan, muffs heat my head up terribly. I've found the red Peltors are the best so far.

I bought them on Amazon, but they also sell shooting head muffs that incorporate impact googles. A shame that they won't ship that style here though (probably the word "gun" triggers the customs Nazis). Let me see if I can find them, for if they worked on a gun range they should be Ok for woodwork.

Edit: here they are https://www.amazon.com/ClearArmor-14...dp/B00NKSMPZW/ the glass arms are very thin and fit under the sides. They are listed below in the "also bought with" section.

I will say I never rush my plugs; always roll them, lift the top of my ear, insert and leave to expand. Audiologist has also confirmed that I'm doing it properly. My hearing is quite sensitive (still getting perfect results on the bi-annual tests after 9 years working) and if they're not in properly I can feel it.

There is a frequency graph on the box, I'll try and get a pic up. For what it's worth, they're Class 5 26 dB on the SLC80 scale

When I do use muffs they're Peltor H10 and I can definitely hear the difference between with glasses and without, so they're clearly not sealing as they should.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

I've the same prob as you Elan, muffs heat my head up terribly. I've found the red Peltors are the best so far.

I bought them on Amazon, but they also sell shooting head muffs that incorporate impact googles. A shame that they won't ship that style here though (probably the word "gun" triggers the customs Nazis). Let me see if I can find them, for if they worked on a gun range they should be Ok for woodwork.

Edit: here they are https://www.amazon.com/ClearArmor-14...dp/B00NKSMPZW/ the glass are very thin and fit under the sides. They are listed below in the "also bought with" section.

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Thanks. I have prescription safety specs, which make it a bit harder to find something comfortable...

As someone with hearing problems at the tender age of 31 I really wish I had taken PPE more seriously when I was younger. I spent most of my twenties playing in a band or photographing live music and my hearing is shot now. I wore protection 99% of the time but the few times I didn't left me with long term damage because of the high volume level and length of exposure. Luckily it's not too debilitating but I occasionally get a ringing or hissing sound from tinnitus and find it very difficult to track conversations in places with lots of ambient noise.

Not something to take lightly!

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

When I do use muffs they're Peltor H10 and I can definitely hear the difference between with glasses and without, so they're clearly not sealing as they should.

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True, very true. I can hear the difference after I get a haircut which is every 3-6months.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

they also sell shooting head muffs that incorporate impact googles. A shame that they won't ship that style here though (probably the word "gun" triggers the customs Nazis). Let me see if I can find them, for if they worked on a gun range they should be Ok for woodwork.

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probably not.

a gun range is what is termed impulse noise, while WW machinery is continuous noise. Suppression of impulse noise is a different requirement to suppression of continuous noise.

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Originally Posted by ian

probably not.
a gun range is what is termed impulse noise, while WW machinery is continuous noise. Suppression of impulse noise is a different requirement to suppression of continuous noise.

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That's correct. For general use the Peltor 10 series are slightly better than their their special shooting muffs, while for shoot the reverse applies.

If you buy good quality earphones that fit in the ear canal, they will come with various sizes of plugs. I have a pair that I have to pull my ear back to get them in, like fitting proper ear plugs. They don't block out as much as ear plugs or noise cancelling headphones, but are better than the ones that just sit in the outer part of your ear. I got mine quite a few years ago from here. https://www.noisymotel.com/

I have 2 like that already, but they're not really useful for 100+ dB machine noise...

What about something like these? Etymotic Research | HD•Safety™ Earplugs + Headset + Earphones
http://www.etymotic.com/media/catalo...harts_foam.png

Do it Scandinavian style = put the saw in a box. I've seen the plexiglas (?) shrouds over the saws and I can't remember where. Noise and dust control.

What do airport people wear, out on the apron tarmac?

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

What about something like these? Etymotic Research | HD•Safety™ Earplugs + Headset + Earphones

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The NRR of 27 more or less is consistent with the fact that they don't go far down the ear canal, but its not to be sneezed at and maybe a NRR of 27 is all you need, after all sanding is not that noisy a process.
The Assumed Protection Values of these Etymotics at low frequencies is quite good and consistent with the fact that plugs physically block the ear canal.

Going back to NRR, which is some kind of averaged value across the 63 to 8000 Hz frequency range, something to be aware of is that the averaging works in both directions.
If the average is boosted by attenuation at frequencies that are not relevant to the noise source then they may not be that protective.
Likewise, ear protection by devices with lower NRR may actually be quite protective at a specific noise frequency.
Not many workers are going to bother to read and analyse frequency data but they should be aware of whether their noise source is rumbling and growling (i.e. low frequencies) or screaming like a banshee at higher frequencies.
To simplify this a bit, manufacturers have started publishing a high, medium and low frequency rating as signified in the Etymotic research H/M/L ratings.

Here is a very interesting graph comparing plugs, muffs and the combo of the two, from Extra Protection: Wearing Earmuffs and Earplugs in Combination Elliott H. Berger Hearing Conservation/NIHL 1218
This article written by professional audiologists who are not trying to sell ear protection (although the website does sell audiology training) is a relatively easy to read article and well worth a read.

This data in the graph shows what is called REAL-ear attenuation that takes into account the ability of a trained user to fit and repeatedly refit ear protection.
The lower down on the graph the line , the greater the protection.

It also shows the combo of plug plus muff and how skull bone conduction limits are reached in the 2-4kHz range using the combo.
Attachment 402700
Getting back to the Etymotics, my concern about paying too much for earphones is I go through about 4 sets a year i.e. lost, crushed, cut through leads etc.
It would be interesting to compare the Etymotics with a $5 pair of foamies from say the Reject Shop.

Those prices would be US as well...
Maybe I'll try to just get their foam tips and put them on my current ear buds. I get years from headphones, they die before I lose/break them so if they're good I don't mind paying

Most of my exposure would be mid-high frequency: saws, planers, routers, etc

Hey Elanjacobs
may I suggest this solution (earmould)
Very popular with motorcycle riders. (thus my knowledge of them)
Basically they inject compound into your ear... wait for it to set and voila 100% guaranteed full seal of your ear.. you can combine this procedure with in ear earphones of your choice.
Generally there are at least couple of guys making those at every motorcycle show...

they receive generally good reviews from motorcycle riders... now comparing motorcycle riding and woodworking... pretty similar... constant noise.. not sure about dB ratings and differences .. but I can tell you.. going 100km/h in an upright position (cruiser style motorcycle) even with decent helmet still have a lot of constant noise.. noise is even greater if you have crap cheap helmet, open face or helmet not suited for the type or ride.. (ie sports bike riders are positioned in a more crouched position comparing to cruiser riders)

The link above is just quick search ... you can find plenty of makers in every major city..

edit:
Another link (melbourne based)
Full Ear Custom – Noiseguard Moto

Thanks for that. So I can bring my own earphones and they'll mould them into the plugs? I saw they have their own built-in earphones as well, but at $500 it's not gonna happen.

I've ordered a pack of foam tips from Etymotic, hopefully they fit the ones I have.

from what I've seen at motorcycle shows... pretty much you can bring your own in ear headphones or they will provide you with the string.. which keeps them together so you dont loose them.. they inject the compound into your ear... you wait for x amount of time .. i think 10 minutes or so.. until the compound sets enough so they can safely pull it out.. and go for a bit of show browsing.. from memory full cure is about an hour or so... pick them up.... final test etc.. and if all good you are walking out of motorcycle show with brand spanking new set of earplugs customised to your ears.. :)
you can even choose colour.. :)

Price wise... cant remember exactly.. but it wasn't too expensive.. usually they offer show discounts etc... web site provided above were posted more as a reference providing additional details...
General attenuation is greater than your standard ear muffs...
ear muffs are usually 29dB and these ones are about 37dB or so
Motorcycle riders like them because
a)they work pretty well..
b) no sweaty ears
c) can wear sunglasses for that extra cool look :)
d) can combine with their favourite headphones ....
e) there is no pressure in you ear like foam tips, reusable or disposable plugs etc. which rely on expansion to fill all crevices of you ear to ensure tight fit

the ultimate solution for many is combination of molded earplugs with active noise reduction headphones... but that raises some other potential issues.. road safety etc .. as noise reduction plus music in ear would mean not being able to hear traffic around you... not very good especially riding in peak hour traffic etc.. so there are some debates on motorcycle forums regarding that .. but might not apply to your case though...

Because there's a $ or 3 to be made, there's a lot of hype around custom made ear plugs especially from so called the audiologists who sell them to folks like musicians and shooters.

Before you buy perhaps have a look at this
Foam Earplugs Versus Pre-molded Earplugs

Bottom line is

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Custom molded earplugs are made from impressions taken of your ears in order to provide a perfect custom fit. Their effectiveness is highly dependent on the skill level of the person taking the impressions so there is no guarantee that they will provide better noise protection than other types of earplugs. Note that custom molded earplugs are considerably more expensive than other types of plugs.

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How do you clean your ears sufficiently to use such things?

I'd imagine if you have waxy ears that they must push it all the way in before insertion.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

How do you clean your ears sufficiently to use such things?
I'd imagine if you have waxy ears that they must push it all the way in before insertion.

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Some of the clinical websites that sell these ear plugs suggest that if you have wax problems that you should see a medical practitioner to have all your wax removed before having the fitting performed.

My son uses custom made ear plugs when he races Suoerkarts and he had to have his ears syringed before they took the moulds of his ears. Some time later he had hearing issues and he found that inserting the ear plugs had pushed the wax and compacted it further into the ear canal. The only reason he had them made was because he needed to be able to have radio communication and race announcements and they had speakers in them to do just that.

A couple of things with noise reduction that I picked up over 20 years as a construction and mining safety manager
The best hearing protection is not always the one with the greatest NRR rating as you still need to hear some of the surrounding noises, a good rule of thumb is to measure the noise levels at the noise source (smart phone apps work well enough for this) and then select hearing protection NRR to give a noise level at the ear of about 75 dB (eg if the typical noise source is 95dB then you will need a NRR rating of 20 which is a Class 3 on the SLC80 scale), keep in mind that each machine in the workshop will emit different noise levels so aim for the loudest to select hearing protection. Even if the NRR is overstated by the manufacturer this will still give a good level of protection
Any machine that exceeds 110 - 115 dB will need both ear plugs and ear muffs, in this case the ear plugs are said to play a greater role in noise reduction so aim for the NRR of the plugs to be as high as possible
Ear muffs that don't seal properly are useless as an effective hearing protection. Failure to seal properly can be for a variety of reasons, (eg wearing glasses, old and stiff ear cushions, lack of clamping pressure, chewing gum etc) so ear plugs are generally more effective if they are inserted properly but they are a pain to keep clean
Statutory noise levels are for an 8 hour day and in WA are 85dBA (this is widely recognised as a noise level that still cause hearing damage if the exposure is over several years which is why I recommend using a target of 75dB when using the NRR system to select hearing protection).
Happy to answer any specific questions that anyone has

By PM if you prefer

Get a Doctor/nurse to clean out your ears. Not rocket science.
I get it done once a year, have waxy ears. Mild pressure washing with very warm water.
Absolutely disgusting, puking results but the result sure feels good.
Ram the wax into your inner ear with ear plugs? You some special kind of crazy?

Once a year is nowhere near often enough if you use ear plugs constantly, you would have to be crazy to leave it that long.

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Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Once a year is nowhere near often enough if you use ear plugs constantly, you would have to be crazy to leave it that long.

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I use in ear headphones up to five times a week, I'm 34 an have never had mine cleaned. If the wax reduces the sound getting to me eardrum that is good isn't it? Hahaha! I do have pretty waxy ears but they seem to sort themselves out if wax does get pushed in. At sound engineering school they said you should go at least every six months if you want to be a sound engineer.

At my last medical the person said that no one will get anything past me as my hearing is really good, I was pretty surprised as I haven't been kind to my ears.

EDIT- This thread has gone may OT!