Who uses them and who doesn't?
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Who uses them and who doesn't?
I voted 'sometimes'. I'd be stricter, but sometimes, especially for very accurate work, it gets in the way, even though I could do the cut with it in place. I try always to go slowly and carefully. I had an incident with a pushtick once, which probably wouldn't have happened if the guard was there (I forget what I was doing at the time). I haven't had a kickback yet.
I don't have a guard but as I said in another post I would likely remove it anyway because that is what I am used to. Please don't think I am trying to make a statement or be a "rebel" nor am I encouraging people to follow my lead.
For those who can/do use them all the time good for you!
Thanks for the replies
Scott
I dont use the splitter or gaurd as they get in the way of the power feeder
I use the splitter almost always and the guard mostly.
However, I'm going to get a set of Grr-rippers when I can afford it which means the guard can't be used.
I've had kickback. It's a sobering experience.
I only have a second hand triton mk3 that came without the guard. I use the riving knife for ripping, stand to the side and use push sticks. sharp teeth travelling at over 130mph (235mm saw) makes me feel jumpy when I think about it.
I'm very concerned about safety and want to cut peoples fingers off for being unsafe around my princes and princess. (Particularly drivers)
But I don't get paid enough to be really safe.
My riving knife is never removed, I've never seen the need to. The gaurd stays on about 99.99% of the time. I don't have a problem using the saw with them in place. I don't have a problem using a 7" power saw one handed while hanging out off the side of a building either, but I'll do any job the safest way available.
Mick
i voted "always" because there wasnt an option for "almost always". if i just have one or two quick cuts sometimes i dont set up the overhead guard. sometimes a cut might be made more complicated by having the guard fitted, particularly on the bevel ripping guide (triton) so i have to sacrifice one aspect of safety to make another part of the operation safer or more accurate.
Generally though, i make full use of guards, fences, pressure fingers and pushsticks.
Well, I use a Triton 2000, but with Dad's old saw which is a bit on the small side. This means that sometimes I have to do a cut from top and bottom - I usually forget to take the knife off until it all comes to a stop on the first cut. Apart from that, it's always there. I can't see the point in taking off safety gear - it never saved anything when sitting on the bench. However, if I've got a good reason for not using it, I won't hesitate.
Richard
Depends on the job. On-site I rarely use either, as much of the work is cutting channels and bevels on the Triton. Pity it won't take a dado cutter. [sigh] I always fit the riving knife when ripping, and a set of homemade f/boards, although I gotta admit I rarely fit the guard. Doug has the right of that, it gets in the way and makes things awkward. Awkwardness increases danger, even with safety gear.
At home, 'tis a different matter. Then it's appropriate gear at all times. Funny, that.
I aways use the guard/splitter on the Triton compact, unless itss not possible to make the cut with it attached.
The sight of the unprotected blade makes me very uncomfortable.:eek::eek:
In the final stages of building a tenon jig, I was giving it a test run today - now my first priority is to build a guard!!
John
Have never used either, had a couple of kick-backs but nothing the hold-downs & push stick couldn't handle.
I believe, like Major, that, with appropriate accessories in the way of push-sticks, feather-boards, etc, that guards and riving knives are unnecessary, and may at times make a cut more dangerous than it would be without them.
This topic can produce strong emotions. I remember getting into a heated dispute with kenmil about it about 18 months ago. I do not intend to repeat the experience. I certainly wouldn't want to persuade anyone who feels safer using a guard and riving knife from continuing to do so. I personally feel safer without them.
I watch the kerf beyond the blade. If it starts to close, I stop the saw, and insert a wedge to keep it open, and then restart the saw, taking great care to ensure that the board is properly held down whilst I do so.
Rocker
I'm with Major and Rocker, but far from a pro. Well i bought my 12" table saw as a second handy and it didnt have a splitter or guard, and had never really seen a TS before, let alone used one, other than what i had seen and learned watching Norm on The New Yanky Workshop. I can see the fores for such devices, but also see the trouble they can cause on some cuts, for me i can see then being in the way lots of times when i am using my various push sticks etc. And like Rocker said, if you are using the right guides and feather boards etc when you HAVE to, then there should be no chance of danger to yourself.
Hardly ever fit the splitter/guard on my saw. Only when doing a lot of ripping. I fitted a splitter made from a drill bit to one of my inserts so when I want to rip, I just put that one on.
I'm another "not trying to be a rebel, but...." crowd. I feel more in control without it. Having work bind on the splitter can lead to more dangerous situations than not using one. And like Rocker, I prefer to have a clear sight of what is happening before, and after the cut. If the tension release caused by the cut is resulting in a distorsion that is closing the kerf, I want to know about it, particularly before I get any resaw damage.
Case in point. I currently have 2 blackened nails, and 9 different cuts/abrasions on my hand from a monumental kickback last weekend. I was quite prepared to admit any number of broken bones in the hand - the pain was exquisite. quite a bit of claret was being wasted as well. So, before any go "ha - serves you right", it was one of those rare occasions I thought "I'll be good, and use the guard/riving knife" I didn't see what went wrong- the guard blocked my sight. What I can conclude, is the work for some reason, did get caught by the back of the blade when the cut was almost completely through, and it kicked back. Hard. The splitter did not stop it. The guard was not able to contain it. Both were apparently shoved out of the way by the force.
Once back out in the shed, after quite an extensive patch job on myself, off came the guard, and I tried again, this time with the Grr-ripper. Ah. Control.
As above, I'm not trying to convince anyone that my way is better, or worse. It works for me, and I am happy that I have more control, and am safe.
There is no need for a heated debate. I can understand that some people will think if you are not doing what they do then you are wrong/silly/going to hell ...... etc. We are adults and can stand to keep it civil. I posted this wondering where I fall in a vast group with different experience levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocker
The replies are interesting to read and I appreciate your input without regard to your stance on the issue.
Thanks my brothers from another mother!
Scott
[QUOTE=stuart_lees] Having work bind on the splitter can lead to more dangerous situations than not using one. QUOTE]
very true, stuart. a young friend of mine worked in a sheetmetal shop where they had a triton for when they needed to cut up sheets of ply for fitting out horsefloats and campervans etc. while attepting to cut a full sheet of ply in half one day, the ply bound onto the splitter. well unfortunately he followed the wrong procedure at that point and pulled the sheet back - and the splitter with it - right into the saw!! saw-teeth were flying around the workshop like bullets, but fortunately nobody got hurt
At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, I can't see how a saw with a properly installed splitter and guard could be more dangerous than one without. In the Triton example above, the splitter was either thicker than the kerf, or it was not centered on the blade. If the saw is set up properly, a sheet of ply would not touch the splitter, unless the operator was doing something strange.
As I said, I don't use mine much, but I think there would be very few ocassions where a correctly fitted guard and splitter would make it more dangerous to use a tablesaw, especially when ripping.
SilentC,Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Surely the quite common situation where you want to rip a narrow strip from a workpiece that is itself narrow is one where using a guard may be more dangerous. Trying to use a push-stick when there is insufficient clearance between the guard and the fence can well be dangerous, and dispensing with the push-stick would be more dangerous still. To minimize the risk of kick-back, the push-stick should be positioned so that it is about midway between the blade and the fence. If it is much closer to the fence than it is to the blade, it may push the workpiece away from the fence and cause kick-back.
Doug,
The sheet-metal shop was asking for trouble using a triton to rip full sheets of ply. It was a false economy not to buy a proper panel-cutting saw. If that disintegrating blade had killed someone, they would have been up for far more in compo.
Rocker
I suppose it depends on how common that situation is for you. As I said, I rarely fit the guard and in the situation you describe I would use a card type push stick held against the fence and a featherboard or another push stick held flat against the table on the infeed side if I was worried about movement away from the fence.
I'm not saying there are not such situations, I am just saying that if you have a problem caused by the splitter when cutting a sheet of ply, for example, then it is most likely because the saw is not set up properly or because the operator is doing something wrong, and not because the saw is inherently more dangerous with the splitter attached.
Now, now, we said we didn't want another Kenmill debacle.
Anyhow I need to hijack th thread in a tic, but first FWIW, I don't use a guard too often. I use a splitter when ripping, particularly longer lengths.
Now the hijack, wossa card type push stick?
It was a guard/splitter that caused me to sever the end of my left thumb while ripping thin material.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
I did away with the guard & only use feather boards & a push stick now. It feels a lot safer not having to work AROUND a guard & splitter.
Most rippings made on a TS are for narrow stock (narrow stock is anything narrower than the width & ½ of your hand, roughly 165mm) so you can push past the blade with safety.
Since I've had my 10" saw, I haven't worked with the guard or the riving knife to which it's attached. It had to come off to cut rebates and half housings and was a pain to bolt and unbolt. Recently, (read last week) in deference to some opinions expressed in this forum and in other places to the effect that non guard use is tantamount to mass genocide, I pulled the guard out from under a pile of offcuts and fitted it, giving myself a warm fuzzy feeling and a mental pat on the head for being safe and an example to the young and impressionable (my SIL). What a mistake. I had to get my eyes almost down to table level to line up my cutting marks,getting a spray of sawdust in the eyes, my push stick jammed between the guard and the fence so the feed stopped and burnt the timber and I couldn't set the fence accurately because it was impossible to see the rule divisions against the (stationary) blade.
My politically correct resolve lasted about 2 hours before the bl00dy thing came off and was returned to the offcuts! I felt more vulnerable with it than without. I'll probably remove the guard and fit the splitter for the occasional ripping job.
Cheers
Graeme
Same sort of thing for me. except I use a piece of ply as my splitter, in my insert. Though I do like that drill bit idea better, gota say.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Don't use a guard. Use long push sticks I've made. thats it.
I'm not obsessive about doing things the "right" way, safety wise. I do things on the job that would get me in trouble with the safety inspector because it's convenient and I know the risks involved and I'm confident that I can complete the task my way with minimal risk. Just like Major Panic, Silent C and Stuart Lees when they operate without splitters or guards on their saws.
I've rarely removed safety gear on table saws though and I think one of the main reasons is that most of my work on table saws has been on sliding table panel saws with riving knives that rise and fall with the blade and have a constant height in relation to the blade. The few times that I've used an American style saw I've cursed at the splitter arrangement with those bloody anti kickback pawls that mark dressed stock. Cutting rebates etc neccesitates removal of the splitter also so I can see that one would soon get sick of it and throw the whole assembly in a corner somewhere.
On a euro saw the riving knife works properly everytime and I can't think of a situation where it would need to be removed. I would remove it if the situation required it though.
The other big safety factor is the sliding table. As it runs about 3mm from the edge of the blade and the end of the cross cut fence is about 10mm from the blade even quite narrow rips are pretty safe. For instance if I needed to rip down some really narrow pieces I would:
Fit some featehr boards to the rip fence to hold stock down (esp at the trailing edge of the blade). Fit a sacrificial packer to the crosscut fence and cut thorough it, effectively giving a "zero clearance" fence. Butt my stock against the crosscut fence and the rip fence, hold the end in place and push the table forward. As the cut is almost complete I place a push pad (as used on jointers) on the stock behind the blade and continue pushing the table forward until the stock clears the blade. You could cut stock as thin as a few mm and as long as the stroke of the table allows (up to 3.8M depending on the brand of saw).
With this type of saw the gaurd partially obscuring the view of the stock is not an issue as it can't bind on the blade if the riving knife is in place. safety gear that actually works and is not a hindrance will be used most of the time and is thus of greater use than that which is a PITA and consequently gets removed. Enough rambling for tonight. :o
Mick
Rocker thats not news to me, and obviously they werent real good aat using it either, why pull the sheet of ply back against he blade if you know what you are doing?. i posted it as an example of how fitting the safety gear might make things worse. yes, appropriate training for the lad might have avoided it completely but that notwithstanding, if the splitter wasnt fitted he would have completed teh cut without damage to equipment or potential danger to personnelQuote:
Originally Posted by Rocker
I don’t normally use it unless I am doing a lot of ripping together. I have watched many woodworking DVDs and a lot of pro don’t use it either.
Treat the tablesaw with respect and use it with common sense will do it for me. :)