Attempted French Polish

I have a couple coming over tomorrow or Friday to have a look at some Redgum I have which I might use to build this couple a hall table. There are concerns about how dark Redgum can be so i figured I would quickly smooth one face and edge with a hand plane (glass smooth off the tool) and put a couple coats of sealer and then a couple coats of hard shellac to show the finished colour. But after watching Steven Wilsons' demo of french polishing at the lost trades fair on the weekend, i thought that looks easy enough and quick enough. So i decided to give french polishing a crack on this small piece of redgum (~700x200x40)

I finished up with a super smooth and shiny surface and one edge, however I can see streaks left by the cotton tshirt rubber I was using. I tried and tried to get rid of them but they remained.

My process.
-2 coats of sanding sealer, wait until each is touch dry before 2nd coat (took about 10seconds, but i waited a few minutes anyways)
-sand with 400 and wipe off the dust
-2 coats of hard shellac, sanding with 400 between coats.
- after about 20mins drying time I began the polishing process using the same rubber as I started with but with very little shellac charged into the pad. A drop or two of paraffin to help the pad glide over the surface.
- around and around, back n forth, figure 8's etc etc finishing with full length straight strokes to straighten out all of the shellac. dunno how long but my arm is sore and it was atleast 30mins.
-wipe down with a fresh lint cloth to remove any remaining paraffin.

My rubber was made from old T-shirts, incl the wadding inside. the rubber surface was only small, about 60x60 circular shape. It was pretty hot in the garage today, about 29 degrees and I had a fan circulating some air.

Is it too hot to bother to french polish at 29degrees? is my rubber too small?

I took some photos but I can't see the streaks left by the rubber in the photos, but quite clear in real life.

Steven Wilson said he runs one day classes for french polishing, I will be taking one of these classes, but until then, do you guys have any idea where the problem lies?

The 5th image has lines across the width, thats just the reflection of my garage roller door.
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Thanks

I know little about french polishing, but that timber certainly is nice. :)

Kuffy,

I think... THINK... that I can help.

I think what you need to do is often referred to as "Spiriting Off", but I just call it blending.

Disclaimer: I've not used the hard shellac. I use a more traditional method of dissolving raw shellac flakes in methylated spirits.

While I'm building my shellac up on the surface, I use a dropper bottle to recharge it with the shellac/alcohol blend. I start out with 10-15 drops per charge, plus a drop or two of linseed oil to lubricate the rubber and prevent it from "pulling" the previously hardened shellac off of the surface.

After a while I've build up enough shellac on the surface and I am ready to polish it to a finished product. That's when I begin the process I'm recommending to you, which I will outline... now.

I keep a spray bottle of pure metho around. When I'm ready to remove those streaks you're having trouble with, I take the rubber I've been using and I spray it 5-7 times with the metho. Be sure to do this well away from the piece, lest the metho mist get on your piece and ruin it.

Then I dab it on a towel (I always have a towel down when polishing) and let it mostly dry. About 20 seconds or so. You don't want it dripping.

Then I hit it with one full spray and I dab it lightly on all sides so that it's charged with alcohol but it's not damp or dripping. I'm being so pedantic with my description of how wet it is because if you use too much it's game over.

Now that my rubber is very slightly damp with alcohol, I begin making what I call "landing strokes" along the grain of the wood. Imagine a plane coming in for a landing, touching its wheels down for the length of the runway, and then taking off at the other end. That's what you want to do with the rubber. Come in fast at the lowest angle you can and drag the rubber all the way off the opposite edge of the work piece along the grain. When you do this, you should see the alcohol leave a trail behind the rubber that almost immediately disappears. If you see any alcohol left on the surface, dab lightly again and carry on. If you see no streak, recharge with alcohol again.

You will want to continue this for some time, making strokes from both directions that begin an inch or so from one side and then end off the other side of the work piece. Over and over and over.

What this achieves is a loosening and blending of the shellac which is already on the surface, and a simultaneous burnishing action by the semi-dry rubber. After a while, and with some care, you will begin to see the swirls and strokes disappearing and a glassy, smooth finish left behind.

I hope that helps some. Best of luck,
Luke

Thanks Luke,
What you describe about spiriting off is probably where I have gone wrong. However, i just tried it and it wasn't working. So i used more pressure and more metho and also some oil to help the rubber glide. Now I have a beautifully MATT surface with streaks :) So just before I went out to get KFC for dinner, I stripped the surface with pure metho and I'm about to start again. Do you use oil when spiriting off? or just the old rubber with a spritz of metho only? and do u use hard pressure or light pressure?

Hi Kuffy,

Traditional French Polish does not use Hard Shellac, because it is very much less forgiving than normal shellacs. I doubt that you will ever achieve a smooth finish with it unless you are a polishing master craftsman.

Temperature: My old French Polishing manual says to make sure that you polish on a warm day - 15 degrees C! So 29 degrees is asking for a very experienced operator or for trouble, especially with Hard Shellac. However I have easily French Polished on a 30 degree day with normal shellac - very diluted as below.

How dilute is your Hard Shellac? I find that on a hot day I dilute the Hard Shellac to about 25% shellac 75% metho. Only use metho with low water content - the cheaper stuff can have high water content and cause problems (though I have usually found Bunnies metho OK).

I only ever use Hard Shellac on small areas - coasters, food platters etc. For a lovely big board like that red gum I would use my normal Brown Button shellac (Shines Shellac supplies on the web) but flake would work as well as long as you don't mind the colour. Even on small items iHard Shellac tends to be streaky if your rubber is wet and I often have to rub back hard with 320 grit, almost removing all the finish, to get an even final coat. It is a great finish where you need heat and moisture resistance but otherwise normal shellac is much easier and gives a better finish in my experience.

French polish requires many very very dilute coats of shellac - start out with almost pure metho and little shellac and only increase the shellac concentration gradually. The final quality is worth the work, as it is IMHO beyond compare.

I have never tried Luke's technique for spiriting off, and have never needed it, but I have polished some very large table tops in cedar and Huon up here in Brisbane temperatures without any problem.

Hope this helps.

David

First: your photos look pretty good to me so maybe you are being too hard on yourself? Maybe just a very thorough rub off with say 600 grit up to 1200 grit wet and dry and then a finish with a nice damp, not wet, rubber would get you an almost perfect finish.

Second: an increase in rubber size definitely helps with large surfaces. For a big table top (say 2400 by 900) I use a rubber about 300 mm by 200 mm. Proportionally less for smaller surfaces.

Third: I love that timber. I have only ever managed to score enough of that to make a box!

Good luck

AND ... I recommend a finer fabric like a piece of an old, lint free cotton sheet. T-shirt makes grat rag but maybe too much texture for the finest polish.

Thanks David.

I just had another go at that board for about 40minutes. If i hold the board arms length away from my face, I see the reflection of a brutish neanderthal that can't polish good ;)
But at closer inspection I can still see streaky pad marks. I'll try using some normal shellac, dewaxed blonde flakes tomorrow. I'm gonna send the board through the thicknesser and then smooth the surface with a plane and then random oribital #400 grit as per what I would do with any other film finish. then sanding sealer and sand again. then rub rub rub with normal shellac. tomorrow is hotter 33C it seems so i will have to wake up before noon! and get it done in the morning...

I was using the Hard Shellac that i have in a sauce bottle. It started out as a 50/50 cut, but then it annoyed me being so thick so I cut it further and further. No idea what the cut is now but it did a decent job of a lazy susan the other day, not french polished, just high build and smoothed with abrasives, no grain filling.

At the end of the day, all of this doesn't really matter much because I was just going to show the client the colour of the finished timber. But now I feel challenged and I have never been much for backing down from a reasonable challenge. So long as the client doesn't ask for a french polish finish...ugh!

Mmmm 33 degrees, yikes. How about the humidity? At those temperatures the marks from the edges of your rubber are set before you end the sweep - hence the streaks. If your client wants a French Polish finish tell them they will have to wait for cooler weather.

Yes, when I use Hard Shellac, which I really like as a finish, I find it gives great cover, quickly, but works best if you are not seeking large, super shiny polished surfaces. On Northern Silky Oak carved platters or small coasters - good seal, good colour, no chance of large shiny areas ever being achieved (or needed). I have also found it more prone to thickening up over time than normal shellac bulk solutions, but that has not been a problem for my uses.

I know that the normal recommendations for sanding are to go no further than 320 or 400 grit, but the best French Polish I have achieved has been when I have finish hand sanded with 1000 or 1200 grit. My "teacher" told me that he was taught to polish in Austria using metho and super-fine ground pumice until the wood was absooutely smooth. Then he had to begin polishing with the rubber and straight metho - for a whole day - before very dilute shellac (probably about sanding sealer dilution I think) was added for the body-ing in process before starting his figure of eight polishing sweeps.

I do not have that level of patience and am not seeking that level of shine as I am usually trying to have a finish that looks good with Australian antique furniture, but have sometimes become so caught up in the polishing that I achieved such a high polish that I had to cut back with 0000 steel wool and wax to fit with the antiques - so the fine sanding stage has paid off for me.

Steven Wilson, the bloke at the lost trades fair said he only dry sanded up to #180 grit, and then used old #400grit between filler/sealer skinning in coats (old sandpaper being two bits of sandpaper rubbed together). He was getting good results using this method. However I prefer sanding to higher grits also. I find I get far less raised grains with the sealer coat, as well as having a smoother initial surface which doesn't tear through my rubber as quickly.

This morning I have...
- hand planed the redgum board back to smooth bare timber, too early to fire up the thicknesser
- random orbital sanded with just #400 and then used a foam backed #500grit disc in the sander to slightly pillow the edges the way I like.
- one coat of ubeaut sanding sealer and let dry for a few minutes
- random orbital with the #500 foam backed disc
- 2nd coat of sealer and sand again
- apply one coat of Hard Shellac (couldnt be bothered going out to get a bag of flakes at retail prices) and let that dry for a few minutes. charge fresh rubber with a small amount of shellac and wipe a drop of paraffin on the surface of the rubber
- hand sand with worn #400 grit
- apply 2nd coat, and due to my impatience I began skinning in immediately. back n forth, around and around in circles, figure 8's etc for about 10minutes. applying a drop or two of shellac and also putting a drop of paraffin on the rubber as needed.
- wipe the excess oil with a clean fresh rag. I believe the oil should be gone by the normal process of french polishing with a rubber...but I suck at it so I make do :)
- bob my head up and down, left and right, tilt it sideways. EUREKA! I did it. its smooth, shiny, no streaks from the rubber pad. French polishing is easy :)

I watched a bunch of youtubes about french polishing last night before bed and most of the guys were doing the same thing. But there was one where he made mention of the exact problem I was having with streaks left by the rubber. He said if you work the surface for too long you can try and try and try to remove the streaks but you are just making things worse. He said you can work a surface for about 20minutes before you need to pack up and come back to it in a couple of hours. He also said that the rubber streaking is called 'roping' and can be caused by having a rubber which was too wet. This i am sure was my problem, I like to go fast and applying more shellac seems faster to me. So today I really had what I would consider a very dry rubber from start to finish.

Some pics for you guys. You can see the reflections of the shellac bottles a little clearer today because of the better surface finish I achieved.
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Yes, I should have mentioned that the greatest asset for French Polishing is patience, lots of time to dry and more importantly harden between coats, and make sure the rubber is not sopping, only damp with shellac. I have had exactly the same problem with a wet rubber.

You have achieved an excellent result - and in high temperatures and with Hard Shellac at that. Well done :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

My best polishing is done in winter, at night in a closed up workshop. A few coats a night only -- so takes weeks, maybe even months, to get the final polish little bit at a time. Leaves time to drink some good red afterwards.

I am only new to polishing but all the experienced advice I get from those that know is NOT to try "spiriting off"
It is too tricky for beginners

French Polishing is an art and does take a lot of time to master. A polished item if done correctly gives a deep 3D effect and is a finish that stands out from the crowd.

When oil is used (which is a must to get a good finish and stop drag on the rubber) at the end it has to be removed or the finish will get a grey look about it hence "stiffing up" or "spiriting off" is an essential part of the job.

What French Polishing does is teach one patience. it cannot be rushed and there really is no quick way of doing it.

Shellac is touch dry within seconds of being applied but it is not hard and if you keep going over Shellac that is not hard one is only taking off the previous coat so the best method is to give it a finish then let it harden anything from a couple of hours to a day or so.

you would most likely find that a French Polisher will be doing several jobs at the same time and this is why.

The best way to French Polish once the sanding is finished is 1) Skin In the item with the rubber, that is give it a good coating of Shellac, no oil at this stage, make sure that the complete area has a good coverage of Shellac. 2) Body Up the item with the rubber, that is give it some depth. If there is still some open grain put some Pumice inside the rubber which will fill the open grain. At this stage oil is introduced either Paraffin or Linseed Oil, these are non drying oils so it needs to be removed at the end of the job. 3) Then the last stage is to Spirit Off the oil and get the finish that you are after. This is a part that can be quite time consuming.

Use a different rubber for each stage. For example, if you use the same rubber to Spirit Off as you used to Body Up it will be full of oil and will not remove the oil as the rubber itself is full of oil.

Overall be patient do not try and rush the job.

French Polishing is very satisfying and can only enhance the job.

Good luck

Router

I'm gonna do a day class with Steven Wilson on July 23rd. And then i'll be finishing a bedhead that I am currently building with blonde shellac french polish.
"if the finish is any good, i'll post some pics"...."if the finish sux, i'll pretend the bedhead commission was withdrawn" :D

Well, you actually inspired me to try to polish a large board with Hard Shellac. It was meant to be a bedhead too, but now may become a table!

Does anybody know why padding/rubbering shellac is incredibly easy to create a mirror shine on round surfaces like a 5/8" bullnose edge? I am polishing a bedhead at the moment which has the bullnose edge and it is always shiny, even though the flat areas of the panels SUCK! they suck so bad, but I am almost finished but I had to cheat quite extensively :)

The shine that you are getting on the "rounds" is most likely not french polish. Sometimes on rounds it is somewhat difficult to see the difference between french polish and a good even coating of shellac, on large flat surfaces it is far more obvious. Both of these finishes use the same basic coatings and methods but the end results are very different. I quite often give an item a shellac finish but the finish does not have the depth that french polish has. Both of these finishes have a role to play and complement each other but they are not the same.

Keep working on your finishing.

Good luck

Router

What's the difference between a good even coating of shellac and french polish? I have used a rubber, and applied plenty of pressure forcing the shellac into the pores/grain/timber. And I know I did a good job because the 'first' time I decided to sand back to bare timber I quickly decided that I need to remove far too much timber to get to bare timber, so I settled for a flat even, already shellac choked surface to try again.

My method of cheating has evolved from trying to do the right thing of coating/skinning in/spiriting off, burnishing. to something along the lines of

-slap on 4-5 coats of shellac using a #10 mop. trying not have fat and thin sections, but the surface is far from flat and even. let it dry 24hrs.
-using a little pencil eraser about 40x20x10mm as a sanding block. I use #400 dry to remove most of the high spots/fat overlaps. sanding with the grain
- #0000 steel wool so I have a mostly dull flat sheen over the surface. sanding with the grain
- #1200 wet n dry using the same tiny eraser sanding block, lubricated with turps. sanding with the grain
- #2000 as above. sanding with the grain
- meguires ultimate compound applied by hand with a tshirt rag with the grain
- wipe that meguires stuff off using a turps soak rag and put the piece aside while I do all of that to the other panels.
- then I made a little rubber using some bedsheet material and cotton wadding.
-I tried pure metho in the rubber, but I found I was removing shellac from the surface and burning through. So I add a few drops of shellac and some more metho over the top.
-spread some liquid parrfin on the back of my hand and tap the rubber on it to lube it some.
-then using hard pressure, fly in fly out method. I go back n forth with the grain until it is mostly shiny. It still has streaks at super low angle light...
-then I use a #3000 foam backed sanding disc by hand to kinda dull the surface just slightly so there is less of a jump between super high gloss areas and less gloss areas.

it seems to be working. I'll get some photos up in a few days time. I have 6/12 panels completed. 4/12 awaiting final padding, and 2/12 panels looking like a dogs brekky with only 4 coats of 2lb cut shellac on it which was slapped on by a butcher.

You seem to be going to a lot of trouble by taking shortcuts/cheating. The best method to get a fair result. Try on one of your panels doing a skin in coat by giving the piece a couple of coats with a blender not a mop then build up the finish with your rubber. A blender is a flat brush and you simply go from one end to the other end without stopping several times till you have it covered, no oil at this stage. Next stage is to "body up" that is using a different rubber and by using a small amount of oil. At this stage to flatten the surface add some pumice to the inside of your rubber. Pumice is an abrasive so when the bodying up is finished the surface will be somewhat dull. By using pumice you will be choking up the grain and therefore giving a nice flat surface. The next step is to stiff up by removing the oil. If the oil is not removed, as the oils used are non drying oils the surface will go grey over time. If you have some darker spots on your finish by running your finger across the area you will see that there is oil still on the surface by the mark that is left, stiff up is complete when there are no dark spots. French Polishing gives a great result but does take time and practice.

Good luck

Router

That actually seems like a good way to do it. I haven't been using any pumice at all, and one of my biggest issues is with high and low spots from the initial mopping of coats. The pumice would probably cut these down to size in no time. I'll try this next time, I'm pretty well committed to my method at the moment.

There are some dovetail/dutchman cutouts in the panels which is breaking a ~800mm long panel into 4 small areas. The butterfly keys will sit proud of the surface by 2mm. I will glue these in afterwards. This bedhead comes apart for shipping, which is a good thing because the thing is getting close to 45kg!

Leveled the high/fat spots with #400 grit dry using a 40x20x10 pencil eraser sanding block
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Steel wool the surface so there aren't too many shiny low spots.
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After cutting back with #1200 and #2000 wet with turps, then using Meguires ultimate compound.
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And a finished panel after rubbing it out with a small rubber loaded with small amount of shellac and metho and lubed with liquid paraffin.. It looks good enough. There are 12 panels total.
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I am not in a position to answer your first question, as I have not experienced that. However, now that the discussion has developed into a more general "how to French Polish" one I'll add my two cents worth.

The finish that you have achieved looks good although the technique that you have used leaves me boggled. But, to me it looks like a real French Polish should. The characteristics of FP are the clarity and depth so that you are seeing the full beauty of the timber revealed. A shellac finish looks Ok but does not have the clarity and depth.

The technique described by Router has some characteristics in common with the technique that I was taught except that technique used the pumice with straight metho before any shellac was used - the pumice had some dry colouring added to suit the timber. I do not use pumice because fillers were not used on very early Australian furniture and that is what I started off polishing (but only when they had been damaged and had lost the original I must add).

The secret is to take your time/not be in a hurry and use very dilute shellac on a fairly dry pad. I start and finish with the same rubber and build up the polish over days/weeks/month depending on how much time I get in the workshop. I also do not use any oil as I find that a dry rubber on well-dried earlier coats does not stick and does not rip off the earlier coats - in my experience that only happens when they are not fully dry.

Hope this is of use.

David

Where can I find pumice in Australia that is already graded? I can find talc and rottenstone but I don't think that is the correct thing to use. Talc is just a filler, and rottenstone is an abrasive but doesn't fill?

Aanyways, I finished polishing the panels last night and a quick assembly of the bedhead and it looks good to me. The photo sucks, its just on my bench in my poorly lit garage. I'll have to get better pics inside the house somewhere, or politely ask my clients to supply some since I don't have a kingsize bed in my place.
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