Asbestos around the home

Hi All,

Was wondering if any body knows how does asbestos fibro looks like, is the fibro balck in colour. Did all fibro conatain asbestos in the 50's 60's.

A frind told me that normally you will find asbestos fibro around the outside of the house and in the bathrooms (wet areas), but you would never find asbestos fibro say in the bedrooms or living room.

I need to know this because the old house I just bought has fibro in the main bedroom and living room, and I (myself) want to replace it with plaster boards. Asbestos removal is very expensive....

Regards,
Hector.

Asbestos didn't come into use untill about the mid 50's.
The older cement sheet didnt use asbestos.
There is an easy test!
If you can drive a pointed nail through the sheet it is asbestos sheet.
If the sheet cracks its the old (or modern) asbestos free sheet

Sorry Bob, wrong answer, asbestos was used somewhat earlier, and your test really insn't that simple..... if you can break off a corner or the like and can see ANY fibres ( you may have to use a magnifying glass) then you can bet your bottom dolar that it is asbestos. Before panicking about removal, costs etc. do some research, there is a lot on the net and if you have a sample then there are specialist asbestos companies who can identify it for you.

Just leave it there and plaster over it. It wont hurt anyone unless you disturb it.

I can remember the asbestos in my old shed was stamped on the back, but I suppose you can't see the stamp, just thought I would mention it.

WE recently had all of our asbestos removed by licensed asbestos removers. Before we booked them, we very carefully(full PPE) took small samples to the university labs where they confirmed the presence of white asb in walls and white and brown in ceiling( I think, I don't have the results on me). Each test cost $70 but we thought it was worth knowing for sure. We didin't have to handle the stuff at all after that, and we didn't have to worry about the disposal. The remainig frame was also sealed with something incase there were stray fibres around. As you are in Sydney there is no point in recommending our contractors, but it was $4800 for whole house, inside, outside, every type of room, double skin on ceiling.Amd it was 4 days I could spend on working out how to replace it all!!!!!!Don't touch it if you don't have to.

Sitting out here in the Timor Sea on an oil rig built in mid seventies. Every internal wall panel on this tub features at least 2 or 3 big red asbestos warning signs.

head butting walls is ruled out for while ing away the time then?

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Originally Posted by helga

head butting walls is ruled out for while ing away the time then?

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Most of the head butting is done during working hours.....5% of time spent doing geology.....rest of the time spent dealing with rig politics and peoples egos.

do you think the people who made the asbestos should assist with the disposal of it now it has been proven hazardous, or is that naive crazy talk? Kiwigeo, how far underground is asbestos found in its natural state?Do you know from which era?

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Originally Posted by helga

do you think the people who made the asbestos should assist with the disposal of it now it has been proven hazardous, or is that naive crazy talk? Kiwigeo, how far underground is asbestos found in its natural state?Do you know from which era?

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Interesting questions there Helga.

Do I think the people like James Hardie should help fund with disposal of asbestos products theyve produced and which have been proven to be dangerous? Yes but only because they knew it was dangerous but didnt inform customers and workers of this.

How far underground is asbestos found in its natural state? Okay trying to remember my stage I Geology lectures here. The various minerals that we call asbestos form mainly in a high pressure environment so theyd form at reasonable depth and usually along zones where tectonic plates are colliding or running against each other. A good example would be adjacent to the Alpine Fault in NZ where the Pacific and Asian plates are colliding/sliding against each other. I think there used to be some asbestos mined from the Haast Schist in the South Island of New Zealand.

Age of formation of asbestos minerals? I imagine you could have a wide range of ages here..anything from Paleozoic (or older) through to Tertiary (middle aged to realtively young). The stuff in NZ is probably about Permian through to Cretaceous in age.

As you can see the Geology is a bit rusty...dont do much hard rock geology in this job....mainly looking at wiggly lines and computer screens these days.

FYI there are 6 hydrated silicate minerals that are called asbestos in their fibrous form:

actinolite
tremolite
amosite (brown asbestos)
anthophylite
crocodilite (blue asbestos)

Chrysotile (white asbestos).

The first 5 are all amphiboles and commonly occur in low temp/high pressure metamorphic rocks. They are also the more dangerous forms of asbestos.

Chrysotile because it breaks down more readily within the human body is not considered as dangerous and is still produced in some parts of the world.

A friend of mine does this asbestos sampling and ID.

One day while at the lab doing an air con job for him I got him to show me how they figure out if its asbestos.

they just look at it for a large sample, or put it under the microscope for air samples.

Much of hardies asbestos crocodilite (blue asbestos) was mined at wittenoom in WA. It was mined from tunnels and drives. But there are a lot of open air asbestos seams in the rocks and hills of the region. Its very easy to find.

One of the asbestos companys earliest methods of treating asbestos was to seal it up by painting over it with a lead based paint...http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...cons/icon6.gif

kiwigeo not only the rigs but also the ships built in the 70's , accomodation ,lagging and joints on steam pipework that we had to sometimes grind off ...
Have lost two mates I sailed with to asbestosis ,like all the other engineers I keep it touch with get checked regularly but have been told this stuff can be dormant for over 25 years, always on the back of your mind,,http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...cons/icon8.gif


Useless infomation for the day

Cockroaches break wind every 15 minutes.

Sorry Christopha, your answer's wrong too :p The moderns fibrous cement sheets have fibres in them too (the name's a bit of a give away ;) ) They use cellulose fibres now. The rough and ready, rule of the thumb test is to break a small bit of sheeting off and play the flame of a lighter over the exposed bits of fibre that stick out. Cellulose ones will burn, asbestos ones won't. I don't know about what fibres were used prior to asbestos, I assumed (right or wrong) that all the old sheeting contained asbestos.



"As you can see the Geology is a bit rusty...dont do much hard rock geology in this job....mainly looking at wiggly lines and computer screens these days."
Cool! is that where you smash your electric guitar into rocks whilst consuming vast amounts of alcohol and other recreational drugs and surrounded by a bevy of nubile young groupies? :D

Mick

They used cellulose fibre in the old sheets before asbestos (but obviously a different formulation to the modern stuff ). Those old sheets were so brittle that thay had to be nailed with flat nosed nails. Ordinary pointed nails would crack or shatter the old stuff.

Another bit of useless information. There is an old white asbestos mine in Barraba NSW. I think they are still arguing over who is going to clean up all the tailings.

I think it was mostly mined close to the surface.

So to summarise.

To ascertain if the product is asbestos.

drive some nails into it to break it up, if you can drive a flat nail in its asbestos, a pointy nail means asbestos, look for fibres if they are there its asbestos, if theyr'e not its asbestos, try and burn it, if it burns its asbestos if not, its positive for asbestos, if its stamped asbestos its asbestos if its not stamped asbestos, its asbestos.

Most importantly, if in doubt treat it like its asbestos.

:D

Interesting to note that there's white asbestos on the space shuttle.

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

"As you can see the Geology is a bit rusty...dont do much hard rock geology in this job....mainly looking at wiggly lines and computer screens these days."
Cool! is that where you smash your electric guitar into rocks whilst consuming vast amounts of alcohol and other recreational drugs and surrounded by a bevy of nubile young groupies? :D

Mick

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Not at 47 years of age Mick. These days if I see anybody flogging the guts out of a guitar I severely reprimand them and then plan how Im going to repair the instrument.

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Originally Posted by Ashore

kiwigeo not only the rigs but also the ships built in the 70's , accomodation ,lagging and joints on steam pipework that we had to sometimes grind off ...
Have lost two mates I sailed with to asbestosis ,like all the other engineers I keep it touch with get checked regularly but have been told this stuff can be dormant for over 25 years, always on the back of your mind,,http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...cons/icon8.gif

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Hope you keep a clean bill of health there Ashore....one shouldnt have to go through life with something like that lurking in the back of ones mind.

Asbestos just one health hazard out here.....air handling systems on some of these older rigs are not the best. They keep the temperature turned down and spray antiseptic through the system on a regular basis to keep the bug count down.

Please be carefull with the nail test. My house is linned inside and out with asbestos. I have removed entire sheets and they are clearly stamped as "James Hardie Asbestos". These have been on the house for about fifty years, and they are brittle. I cannot hammer a nail (sharp or blunt) into the sheets.

Not sure if this is just a batch of sheets that are used on my house. Maybe its 50 plus years of Queensland weather. Then again could it be that the nail test past its use by date.

Hector, I had the same problem with our house a few weeks ago. I took a small sample up to a private lab near Hornsby which did a test - $60 and same day service - shoot me a PM if you need to the name of the company. It turned out there was white asbestos present - not particularly dangerous but better avoided if possible. The guy who did the test recommended not touching it - just putting new wallboards up over it - main thing is not to hit it with dust-making power tools.

Incidently, I rang Workcover and several asbestos labs and all assured me there was no foolproof way to tell if asbestos is present or not without laboratory testing (dont know if that is true - just repeating what I was told).

regards
Arron

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Originally Posted by kiwigeo

air handling systems on some of these older rigs are not the best. They keep the temperature turned down and spray antiseptic through the system on a regular basis to keep the bug count down.

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I guess you just leigonier on


Don't you just love the way one crew member with the flu can share so much with everyone else



Useless infomation for the day


Man who run in front of car get tyred.

A bit late but I thought I'd post a couple of pics of what I've been finding in a couple of the normal locations. The stuff sitting in front of the pipe and the stuff stuck in behind the retaining wall that's being demolished is asbestos cement sheet. Shoving off-cuts behind retaining walls, under landscaping and the like was fairly common practice many years ago - if only they knew...

Thansk all for replying, it seems that I will treat all walls containing asbestos and will hunt around for prices. I did call a place in Winston Hills and they were quoting me arounf $2400 + GST to remove the sheets in two rooms (3550 x3550 by 2650 height) I find this very expensive compared with Helga's price of $4800 for the whole house in and out.

Arron, I will send you a message regarding the Lab, I might as well get the stuff tested first.

Does anyone know of asbestos removal specialist in Sydney?

Regards,
Hector.

if it's white asbestos, you might decide to get rid of it yourself. If you do, you will need to know how to dispose of it. Put it in bags, then wrap up in building plastic which must be at least 200 microns thick and tape it up so it is as near to airtight as possible. Then call 1300 651 116, and book a time to go out to Belrose or Eastern Creek. Cant remember the name of the company, I'm afraid. They will inspect it, and if satified with the way you have wrapped it up and that the building plastic has no holes and meets their 200micron requirement, you can dump it for $37 (or more for larger quantities).

Not suggesting that you do remove it yourself as there are risks involved, but just trying to be helpful if you do. Might also be useful if you have small quantities from time to time.

Arron

Please remember that your local council may test samples for ratepayers and they may even do it for free!!! It's worth a try.

Cheers All

What are the risks of having the false cladding around the home? If any one wants name of company that do testing in Melbourne PM me and I;ll give the name. It cost me 66AUD in cluding JH'sGST, for one sample. I called out these guys to from a company to remove some cladding for me and they too left small parts behind!! they were supposed to do it right! So the bottom bit of the house has no cladding as it had to be removed for restumping but the rest has, what is the hazard? What difference does it make to the house apart from the look? Why was it put up? HUmmmmm:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by helga

do you think the people who made the asbestos should assist with the disposal of it now it has been proven hazardous, or is that naive crazy talk? Kiwigeo, how far underground is asbestos found in its natural state?Do you know from which era?

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It's all over the ground in its natural state. I worked on the rock sources for the rail line to the East Angeles mine (quite near Marble Bar) and the rock is all full of asbestos. It's no worries at all, as long as the fibres aren't floating around free and getting into lungs. All of our sampling and testing was done with a handy spray bottle of water close by that was kept busy wetting down the material to prevent dust.

For the average joe any asbestos in free form is dangerous. White through brown to blue - its just a matter of degree of potential damage to humans.

There were a number of asbestos sheeting products produced in the 50's and 60's marketed under different names. The most common here in Tasmania was called Tasbestos and was produced by the Goliath Cement Company at Railton.

For those who don't know, the two most serious illnesses caused by ingesting asbestos fibres are mesothelioma and asbestosis. Ill effects are usually not evident until 30 to 40 years after exposure. There is no cure for either and both are terminal.

The sheet products are essentially safe in domestic situations provided they are not disturbed. When painted or sealed it poses no threat to health.

Removal is best left to licensed operators. Collex are licensed to remove and dispose of asbestos products.

Generally speaking, council waste transfer stations won't accept asbestos products. However, your local council can advise where designated disposal areas are.

Some councils allow a resident to remove his/her asbestos from the home. Strict guidelines apply.
In m y own case, bylaws allowed me to remove 20 sq metres a day myself. I had to wear a full body protective suit, a respirator with filters designed for asbestos dust protection and the stuff had to be wrapped and taped in 200 micron plastic. It cost me about 300 bucks all up to get rid of it all (my old shed).

Its best to assume that any cement sheet product installed before the mid 1980's contains asbestos of one type or other. I know that JH 'Fibre' cement sheeting was generally available from about 1982 when the asbestos was replaced with cellulose. This was also the time when Wittenoom in WA became a hot topic and led to the epidemic of mesothelioma and asbestosis deaths in this country.

From a personal perspective, whilst I sympathise with those who suffer from the terminal effects of exposure, (my wife's uncle died 3 months after diagnosis) I believe the worst is yet to come. Wittenoom is Australia's Chernobyl. James Hardie should have been forced to set up and fund a specialist asbestos removal company to assist homeowners to remove their products when required. At the very least homeowners should be able to bill the company for the expense of removal and disposal.

Finally, sheeting products are not the only danger in the family home. May older homes have asbestos lagging around plumbing. Any homes which have the older style header tanks for hot water will likely have lagged pipes. Old ovens and wood burners have asbestos piping as a sealant for glass and metal to metal surfaces. For home mechanics, brake pads in older cars contain asbestos which is present in the dust which builds up around the in side of tyre rims.

Be careful, be very careful. :eek:

Sorry to go on about this but I'm a bit of evangilist on the subject. This is a very dangerous and life threatening material and it pi$$es me off no end that James Hardie has been allowed to get away with abrogating its responsibility for a national cleanup of the crap.

Anyway I hope this info is useful. At the end of the day, if in doubt get advice from the local Council, Worksafe office or Collex.

Cheers

Our home was built in 1954, internally lined with fibro. I have removed it out of 1 bedroom and found stamp on the back of it Hardies fibrolite. I wrang Hardies and i was fobbed off to WHS. I did how ever have a piece of it tested and found it to be white asbestos. I simply knocked the heads off the nails and removed it as a whole sheet and wet it down in the room before placing it in plastic and wrapping it up. Any residue on the stud I painted over it after vaccuuming the room with a vacumm that had a water reservior and 5 stage hepa filter. The water trapped any particles and the paint sealed anything that may have been left of the studs. Further inspection through our home I have found it starting to break down in our hall way. Till I either remove this or have it removed I will paint over it and leave it till I need to remove it. I did remove the carpet prior to removal of the sheets as I was advised that it would be a waste of time leaving the carpet in place as particles will be trapped in it. :eek: :eek:

I am in agreement with what Shedhand has said, but recently I was listerning to the radio and the speaker made a very good comment that,"I cannot remember the last time someone lost their job in this country when they did something wrong, all most got were golden hand shakes". How true!! So same with JH probably!!:( So the cladding is fine and how do we know that the sheeting is becoming dangerous is there a change in the way the sheet appears or asbestos is inert and stays in same form? Is it posible to render is or is it sensible to render it?:confused:

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Originally Posted by some_one

I am in agreement with what Shedhand has said, but recently I was listerning to the radio and the speaker made a very good comment that,"I cannot remember the last time someone lost their job in this country when they did something wrong, all most got were golden hand shakes". How true!! So same with JH probably!!:( So the cladding is fine and how do we know that the sheeting is becoming dangerous is there a change in the way the sheet appears or asbestos is inert and stays in same form? Is it posible to render is or is it sensible to render it?:confused:

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While the asbestos is wholely contained within the product, ie not broken or flaking, and it has been sealed with something like bondcrete or a good quality sealer undercoat it poses no threat to health according to the experts. Its only when allowed to fall into disrepair (like a lot of old backyard buildings) or when being removed that care needs to be taken.
Cheers

Well the sheeting is fine but a few places have me concerned so I will take photos and get the best advice then!:)

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Originally Posted by some_one

Well the sheeting is fine but a few places have me concerned so I will take photos and get the best advice then!:)

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Good move mate. :)

great thread, lots of excellent information.
Just for example, once the exterior cladding of asbestos has been professionally removed from an entire house, what are the options for re-cladding?
Cement weather boards? Flat cement sheet with a textured render?

Theres a few more choices,
Baltic pine weatherboards
Cedar weatherboards
Weathertex weatherboards (tempered hardboard)
Brick veneer
Plastic or steel cladding

Hi All

Just lettin you know that you can get a sample of fibro tested for asbestos for free. I went to Noel Arnold and associates in Box Hill. If you just want them to check it and let you know what it is, the test is free and takes about 5 mins. If you want a full NATA endorsed written report, you get charged for it. here is the content of the email I got from them

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Hello Ben,

We do test materials for the presence of asbestos, so we can help you out. With regards to pricing, there are two options:
* First, if the information is purely for yourself, and there won't be other people involved in the work, we can provide this service for free for a single sample.
* Second, if there are to be tradespeople involved in the works (including waste skip hire or waste transfer station/landfill operators), or if you need written confirmation for insurance or legal purposes, we offer a NATA-endorsed sample analysis report. This costs $80 + GST for the first sample. Subsequent samples work out at around $40 each.

A very small portion only is needed for analysis (a piece the size of a 50c piece is sufficient). This should be sampled carefully after wetting down the material, then placed in a kitchen clip-lock plastic bag. If you are providing samples from more than one location, please write the sample location on the bag.

Please drop the samples off in person, or use a courier service to transport them to our office (it is illegal to post dangerous goods in the mail). Our office is open from 0830 - 1700. The address is shown below.

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Just for the record, I could not drive any nail in without splitting, there were clearly fibres present and they burnt when held to a match. The report came back asbestos free.

Cheers
Ben
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