"Martyr for a moment: Legend for a lifetime."
Malcolm Fraser
What a wonderful, poignant and ironic comment.
Regards Paul
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"Martyr for a moment: Legend for a lifetime."
Malcolm Fraser
What a wonderful, poignant and ironic comment.
Regards Paul
Gough,
Sharp as a tack and according to a mate of mine a really nick bloke. They were both having treatment at St Vincents hospital a few years ago.
He was always polite to the nursing staff and was never demanding.
RIP.
Yep, One of those people for whom many held passionate views.
The retrospectoscopes will be working overtime for some time, I should think.
He believed in the power of one, so long as he was the one. Yet he had the common touch. Michael Pascoe in today's Herald summed up my feelings the best.
TT
Unfortunately I see it as 1 less leech sucking the system dry. When you leave or retire from or get the boot from a job you don't continue to get paid for the rest of your life by the company so why should they. :((
Having said that he was a great reformer however tried too much too fast and it cost him dearly. RIP
Petehttp://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/standard/mad.gif
Gough nationalized the health system - and in the process destroyed the Queensland health system which was the best free hospital system in the world.
Gough set up the "age of entitlement" society dependent on social security, which has been bleeding our economy white for 40 years and now that we have a prime minister and treasurer who are trying to end it everyone is opposing them.
Gough did so much in such a short time - some good - some bad. On the balance I think he probably did slightly less damage than most Labor Prime Ministers since WW2, but then its not hard to out-perform Rudd, Gillard and Keating
I think Jim Cairnes did more for the country in a one-night naked romp on the lawns of Kirribilli House with Juni Morosi than what Gough achieved in 3 years as Prime Minister.
A man who inspired more than any other I know of in politics, and who had the grandest of visions. Yet at the same time he didn't seem to have the wherewithal to make many of them happen (or happen properly). Perhaps he needed a (too young at the time - in his mid-20s) Paul Keating as his "make it happen" Deputy or Treasurer.
On a personal level it seems he was difficult to dislike.
On a spectator level, he left us with this gem:
http://anti-joke.com/anti-joke/page/...-member-yes-we
and I can just see him pivoting around in his chair to grin at his party with a supercilious smirk, enjoying the hilarity of the moment.
BrettQuote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
A favourite Gough story.
Regards
Paul
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
A little history on "Social security"
Gough did set up the age of entitlement and he got it for 40 years as does every politician and government employee all paid out of the same purse. Since Gough government dep have grown exponentially the need for as well as employment of family into the system. All of Goughs children work for Government and they say there is no Nepotism in politics or government departments.
Heres a recent photo of "Age of Entitlement" just five ex-prime ministers rakig in a total of approx $20mil between them not to mention what they make besides their pensions and entitlements.
The one with the biggest laugh is the one to thank the most.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/582...x2-940x627.jpg
Thats interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelinround
So is that $20m per year or an expected total over their lifetime ?
And closer to the original topic - I thought that Gough had stature and presence and dignity that seems to be lacking in current day leaders. Other leaders from the past has similar qualities or maybe I've just got nostalgic rose coloured glasses on ?
Bill
Surely it couldn't possibly be $20m per year. The salary for the current PM is (from the Australian):
The Australian prime minister earns $507,338 in annual salary and allowances combined. But when their electorate allowance is added - a taxable payment that can either be spent or pocketed - the salary banked by Tony Abbott and Kevin Rudd was $539,338.
So, assuming that the figure of $4m per PM is correct over their expected life, and an Ex-PM might have a life after politics of say 20 years (on average), that's $200,000 per year. If that's correct then I just don't have a problem with it (nor would I have a problem with 5x that amount). They have, after all, given their best years to public service, and had the most stressful job in the country, and you can bet that any of them who had a short term as PM (Gough, Rudd from that lot) would MUCH rather have had a longer term of service.....
From ABC News just now:
Former prime minister Gough Whitlam has been described overnight in Beijing as "the father of China-Australia relations".
Under his leadership, at the height of the Cold War, Australia became one of the first Western nations to recognise the communist government as the legitimate rulers of that vast and, at the time, isolated country.
The rest of the article is here.
I think it would be pretty safe to say that our economy is largely in the shape that it is (and has been for 20 years of uninterrupted growth) primarily because of that one simple action. That's not a bad gift to the country (I know he stuffed up royally elsewhere). He was a big picture man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steamingbill
Bill recently an email going round had the break down of pensions for pollies, (I thought I'd kept it) it had been produced by a Monash uni prof and it listed all and sundry what was paid as well as staff travel cars and it equated close to $2 mil each. Thats indexed for life!! and when they pass on it passes on to spouse. When Bill McMahon passed on Sonia got his pension till she past on.Its not just main politicians either state and heads get the same pleasure. TAX FREE.
I know no other industry or employment that does this after you are sacked, walk out the door, leave etc.
As for stature and dignity looks can be deceiving met Gough twice once both times I was in primary school and I formed my opinion then he only made it worse as he lead the country in my first few years of working and my first time at voting at age 18.
Bret see reply to Bill above I'll try locate the email mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Thats while they are in not after retirement, sacking, ousting, TAX FREE Its also indexed for life and they can earn what ever they like on top in another job, from book sales, interviews, ++++.
$4mil:? I figured $2mil each per year x 5 PM's = $20mil you've just double that. LOL There's a place for you in federal politics.
Gough did just shy of 40 years after his dismissal we have been paying for it since. Hawke was ousted by his own party became a back bencher still gets PM pension for life whom will his go to when he dies???,
Rudd and Gillard (who will her's go to when she passes on???) they shared their time also both get TAX FREE pensions. Keating again divorced where will his go.
Oh there is also GG's get similar, high court judges and it whittles its way down the line.
Some years ago Harrold Holts wife Dame Bates?? tried and I think won to get his pension passed onto her. Sonia lived off Billy's long after he passed on.
here is news media on pensions http://www.news.com.au/finance/super...-1226885213040
https://www.righttoknow.org.au/reque...s_pensions_ben
Most of these are for super schemes although they mention pensions during Gillard/Rudd term they closed access to some info if I recall.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...627-2p06f.html
Last off-topic post from me on this one: whether you are talking lifetime or per year, $20m over 5 PMs is an average of $4m each whichever way you look at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelinround
:doh: your right Bret sorry ............Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
the most unlikely anagram
Gough Whitlam - Go hug with Mal.
Think about that in the light of the political landscape of the day :oo:
Cheers
Doug
Gough and his government were responsible for many things. Some good, some decidedly bad.
There is no doubt that the early contact with China was a great step.
Countering that we have Gough's attitude to East Timor and the slaughter of the Balibo 5. We also have his decision to recognize
Russian hegemony over the Baltic states. For a man concerned about rights this is strange indeed.
Much of the social reform program of the Whitlam government was needed. The problem was the implementation. There were holes in the legislation, the rules and regulations that you could drive a truck through. This has led, in part, to the entitlement generation as one journo put it.
No government has had the guts to tackle the problems that have arisen from the plethora of welfare legislation- entitlements- that we had thrust on us by governments of both persuasions. It will cost them votes.
On the other hand why do governments firstly take to expenditure and not even look at revenue raising in a sensible way?
I had deleted this three times this morning I received it from an old forumite PTC thanks Pete
This is the email I mentioned above
A MUST READ
I absolutely agree, if a pension isn't an entitlement, neither is theirs. They keep telling us that paying us an aged pension isn't sustainable.
Paying politicians all the perks they get is even less sustainable! The politicians themselves, in Canberra, brought it up, that the Age of Entitlements is over:
The author is asking each addressee to forward this email to a minimum of twenty people on their address list; in turn ask each of those to do likewise.
At least 20 if you can. In three days, most people in Australia will have this message. This is one idea that really should be passed around because the rot has to stop somewhere.
Proposals to make politicians shoulder their share of the weight now that the Age of Entitlement is over
1. Scrap political pensions.
Politicians can purchase their own retirement plan, just as most other working Australians are expected to do.
2. Retired politicians (past, present & future) participate in Centrelink.
A Politician collects a substantial salary while in office but should receive no salary when they're out of office.
Terminated politicians under 70 can go get a job or apply for Centrelink unemployment benefits like ordinary Australians.
Terminated politicians under 70 can negotiate with Centrelink like the rest of the Australian people.
3. Funds already allocated to the Politicians' retirement fund be returned immediately to Consolidated Revenue.
This money is to be used to pay down debt they created which they expect us and our grandchildren to repay for them.
4. Politicians will no longer vote themselves a pay raise. Politicians pay will rise by the lower of, either the CPI or 3%.
5. Politicians lose their privileged health care system and participate in the same health care system as ordinary Australian people.
i.e. Politicians either pay for private cover from their own funds or accept ordinary Medicare.
6. Politicians must equally abide by all laws they impose on the Australian people.
7. All contracts with past and present Politicians men/women are void effective 31/12/14.
The Australian people did not agree to provide perks to Politicians, that burden was thrust upon them.
Politicians devised all these contracts to benefit themselves.
Serving in Parliament is an honour not a career.
The Founding Fathers envisioned citizen legislators, so our politicians should serve their term(s), then go home and back to work.
If each person contacts a minimum of twenty people, then it will only take three or so days for most Australians to receive the message. Don't you think it's time?
THIS IS HOW YOU FIX Parliament and help bring fairness back into this country!
If you agree with the above, pass it on. If not, just delete
If your wonder why the above individuals are asking for you help look at the figures below.
REMUNERATION –
SPECIFIED STATUTORY OFFICES
Date of Effect 1 July 2014
Specified Statutory Office
Base Salary(per annum)
Total Remuneration for office(per annum)
Chief of the Defence Force > $535,100 - $764,420
Commissioner of Taxation > $518,000 - $740,000
Chief Executive Officer, Australian Customs
and Border Protection Service > $483,840 - $691,200
Auditor-General for Australia > $469,150 - $670,210
Australian Statistician > $469,150 - $670,210
“PAY FREEZE, NOT FAIR. SOB, SOB”
Salaries of retired Prime Minister and Politicians
Source: Remuneration Tribunal.
Prime Minister
Deputy Prime Minister
Treasurer
Leader of the Opposition
House of Reps Speaker
Leader of the House
Minister in Cabinet
Parliamentary secretary
Other ministers
Shadow minister
So if I press all the right buttons, the TOTAL annual wages for the 150 seats in the Parliament are:
Prime Minister
$507,338
Deputy Prime Minister
$400,016
Treasurer
$365,868
Leader of the Opposition
$360,990
House of Reps Speaker
$341,477
Leader of the House
$341,477
Minister in Cabinet
$336,599
Parliamentary secretary
$243,912
Other ministers*
307,329 x 71 = A$21,820,359
Shadow ministers*
$243,912 x 71 = A$17,317,752
The TOTAL ANNUAL SALARIES (for 150 seats) =
$41,694,311 - PER YEAR!
And that’s just the Federal Politicians, no one else!
For the ‘lifetime’ payment example (below) I used the scenario that:
1. They are paid ‘lifetime’ salaries the same as their last working year and
2. After retiring, the average pollie’s life expectancy is an additional 20 years (which is not unreasonable).
It’s worth remembering that this is EXCLUDING all their other perks!
SO, for a 20 years ‘lifetime’ payment (excluding wages paid while a Parliamentarian)
Prime Minister @ $507,338 = A$10,146,760
Deputy Prime Minister @ $400,016 = A$8,000,320
Treasurer @ $365,868 = A$7,317,360
Leader of the Opposition @ $360,990 = A$7,219,800
House of Reps Speaker @ $341,477 = A$6,829,540
Leader of the House @ $341,477 = A$6,829,540
Minister in Cabinet @ $336,599 = A$6,731,980
Parliamentary secretary @ $243,912 = A$4,782,240
Other ministers** @ $307,329 = A$6,146,580 x 71 = A$436,407,180
Shadow ministers** @ $243,912 = A$4,878,240 x 71 = A$346,355,040
Conclusions:
·
TOTAL ‘life time’ (20 year) payments, (excluding wages paid while in parliament) = A$833,886,220 –OVER $833 MILLION
·
Julia Gillard, Kevin Rudd, John Howard,Paul Keating, Malcolm Fraser,Bob Hawke, et al, add nauseum,are receiving $10 MILLION + EXTRA at taxpayer expense.
·
Should an elected PM serve 4 years and then decide to retire, each year (of the 4 years) will have cost taxpayers an EXTRA Two and a half million bucks a year! A$2,536,690 to be precise.
·
A 2 year retirement payment cut-off will SAVE our Oz bottom line A$792,201,909*** NEARLY $800 MILLION.
*
There are 150 seats in House, minus the 8 above = 142 seats, divided equally for example = 71 each for both shadow and elected ministers.
**
This example excludes all wages paid while a parliamentarian AND all perks on top of that - travel, hotels, Secretarial staff, speech writers, restaurants, offices, chauffeured limos, security, etc. etc.
***
150 seats,20-year payment ofA$833,886,220 less annual salary x 2 years of A$83,388,622. [$41,694,311 x 2]
“Instead of giving a politician the keys to the city, it might be better to change the locks.”
Doug Larson (English middle-distance runner who won gold medals at the 1924 Olympic Games in Paris, 1902-1981)
You’re Right, you have found where the cuts should be made!
Action: Push for a MAX 2 year post retirement payment (give ‘em time to get a real job).
Spread it far and wide folks. People should know.
Dr. Dale Kerwin
School of Education
MT Gravatt Campus
Grifffith University
ph. 07 3735 5884
fax. 07 3735 5991
email: [email protected]
The end of conscription (and yes I would have gone to jail as an concientious objector as a few of my mates did), universal healthcare, free university education, Double J, recognition of China, support for arts, etc, etc. But at the same time the immortal line "We will decide who comes to this country and the manner of their arrival". When he was elected a whirlwind of freshness desperately needed in a culturally crippled and moribund society. He and Barry Jones were two genuinely intelligent people and they were in the government! A first, it became OK to be smart, well educated, cultured and Australian. But like many a great entrepeneur greatly in need of an exceptional PA and CFO to realise the long term vision. That is how I remember him.
What interests me is the vitriol on his passing. Alan Jones and Larry Pickerings open hatred. Much the same tenor as when Thatcher went and Im sure will accompany Fraser, Hawke, Keating and Howard et al. Knowing there can be no reply, a cowardly, vindictive, shyte slinging exercise. Im thankful that my life trajectory doesnt include greatness. No one will slander my name when I die and my family wont have to deal with unwarranted abuse.....
RIP Gough Whitlam.
You are surprised by that????Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56
It's Larry Pickering I don't get. I used to love his cartoons. Where/why did he develope such hatred?
And a 'nother thing. This argument over the wages we pay our pollies needs some balance. They get far less than a CEO of a multi national who claim that you pay peanuts you get monkeys. So shouldn't the same argument apply to the pollies? After all we know what their wage is before we vote for them. The discrepancy between what the pollies call an "entitlement" and what we think an entitlement is, is open for debate. It is breath takingly intellectual dishonesty by the incumbent government.
TT
I find it interesting that nearly all the posts here mention that Whitlam introduced "free university education", yet no one mentions that it didn't last long and university fees, through the HECS scheme, were re-introduced by Hawke/Keating.
Personally I think the HECS scheme is a far better and more equitable way of funding university education.
There is no such thing as a free lunch as successive labor govts have found out to our cost.
Personally I think Hawke and Keating have done far more for this country than Whitlam ever did.
This article (I don't know who Don Smith is) sums up my opinion of Mr Whitlams reforms fairly well
http://pickeringpost.com/glance/the-...am-legacy/3982
Was that not John Howard??Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by artme
Whitlam would turn in his grave if he read that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Solution
Give 'im a chance Fred - he's not even in it yet. :U
Brilliant PM and exciting times. It felt so good to pull away from the coat-tails of US and UK.
Another perspective on The Man
TT
Have you ever noticed how people tend to be revered in death more than they were like alive?
There is a Shakespearian line:
"Our slippery people - Whose love is never link'd to the deserver until his deserts are past."
:rolleyes:
Regards
Paul
I admired Gough greatly for what he did for our nation and for how he lived.
Brave Margaret was his equal.
I think there is a major inherent problem with our democracy. It will always be corrupted by influence peddlars as long as the professional politician class is allowed to develop its claws. That goes for all parties from what I can tell. I heard a suggestion recently of a lottery type system where citizens are randomly chosen to serve. Coupled with a independent judiciary I think it would work quite well. Gets rid of entrenched policy positions. If you think its fanciful just remember we use randomly chosen juries. Of course it will never happen but it is a worthy speculation.
Im sure the line is Whitlams Artme, I remember it clearly and also some commentary of Howards plagarism when he repeated it. It was Fraser who turned Australia around on refugees. Prior to that the mood was much like today. Labour has never been a supporter of imported cheap labour, if that makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon
Which mob pillaged the military superannuation scheme way back???
I thought it was Gough and his cronnies.
The scheme was self continuing until it got raided, then it failed and had to become a new scheme with less returns etc.
I find it amusing they did the most to destroy the powerful unions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Shed
It was policies like Whitlams and future government that went on to destroy our manufacturing sector...
Can anyone honestly say having a country of intellectuals is a good thing?
I have nothing against an educated person, but just because you are educated does not mean you are smart.. I have seen so many people of all intellects totally incapable of seeing things from a different perspective other then the one they hold... And understanding that their point of view might be valid but is but a small part to consider when looking at the bigger picture...
One thing I often wonder is with all this talk about getting the country "smarter"... What are all the people through no fault of their own not capable of getting a worthwhile higher education going to do when we finally destroy all low end jobs in this country?