Compared to a high quality varnish brush. Does it have that deep glass look like off the brush or is it almost as close or very thin looking? I would like to know before investing in the equipment for spraying & after looking as car paint finishes it just looks too thin
I cant answer your question directly because I spray precat lacquer not postcat (2k) lacquer, however I would like to make a couple of observations:
1. most people who spray lacquer try really hard to get thin-looking finishes. Most people like thin hard-looking coats and say that thick coats look 'unnatural' or 'plasticy'. My own aim is to get the thinnest, toughest finish I can which gives me the right amount of gloss, perfect protection and yet still telegraphs the look of the natural wood through.
2. if you want the best finish possible, forget about 'straight off the gun'. Yep, you can get a great finish straight off the gun, but with a few minutes power-buffing it will be 100% better again, especially to the touch even if it doesn't really look any different. I find it more efficient to spend the time buffing then frigging over the final coat. I'm mainly talking precat, but I cant see why it wouldn't hold true for 2k?
3. if you don't currently have spray-finishing experience, then going straight to 2k sounds like a pretty big step. They are finicky finishes that require a specialised environment, personal protection etc. Precat might be a good intermediate step.
as poster above says...if you are nw to spraying, stepping straight to two pack is probaly a step too far.
If you stuff up using precat nitro, you can simply wipe it all off with a thinners soaked rag...or there may be several other means of rescuing the problem..
Nitro while it can be very thin can look 4 feet deep if prepared an applied correctly.
A great many who are using nitro ( precat) do so because it is very fast...very very fast and it can be slashed over quick and thin.
However if you are looking for a piano finish......more commitment and nitro will get you there....and in good weather 6 to 8 coats a day.
back in the day that is what all the hot rods where finished with nitro but in colour.
cheers
I've sprayed a bit of clear precat nitro at home, and the odd acrylic clear coat over colour. I'm no expert, but I've gone through more than one 4 litre tin over quite a few projects. I've never been happy with the finish straight out of the gun. I've gone for the sand and polish route, which is a lot (lot lot lot) of work, but gives a superb flat shiny finish. Straight off the gun, it's shiny, but rippled. It doesn't come out of the gun as smooth as a good poly brush finish.
If you are spraying nitro and can not get a finish better than brushed polly....you are doing it wrong.
If you have a 100% choked out finish, you should be able to achieve a near glass like finish off the gun with nitro.
A lot of people get too timid with the thinners when spraying nitro...it is not unusual to be sprayng more thinner than nitro...25% product and 75% thinner is not unusual.
You can not thin poly that far without problems....thin polly too far and it can tend to go milky and you compromise the resin.
Nitro like shelac is a fi ish that cures more or less by evaporation alone..as such there is more or less no limit to how far it can be thinned.
cheers
I was talking about a high-build finish. Nitro is shiny, but is not flat, and the more coats you lay, the bumpier it gets. You have to cut it back and polish to flatten the bumps out. I guess it's true that the same happens with poly, but on a flat surface, you can brush on a thick coat of poly and get a flat high-build finish in one big final coat, but I haven't been able to do the same with nitro.
Spraying 75% thinner would take an awful lot of coats to get a high build nitro finish! :)
come and look at my lounge sweet.
you can build nitro into a fairly high build finish and fairly fast..its all about preparation....and using lots of thinners is what it is all about...12 coats in a day is far from unreasonable in warm weather.
Ever heard of a "piano finish".....before the days of modern two pack laquers, nitro was how it was done.
A mate of mine trained as a piano technician and restorer...when he was at college, they could lay up 6 coats of nitro, in a day, in Melbourne, in winter.
Again thinn is what it is all about...if you do not spray it thin it will not self level...AND like all good finishes its all about the preparation.
If you want a good flat and highly glossy finish right off the gun on the last coat...you need to spray thin and you need to have achieved a good flat fully choked out finish right from the base coats.
OH BTW...you do not need a lot of build to achieve a flat and highly glossy finish.
In fact if you want a realy deep lustre, showing the full beauty and light of the timber, a high build finish is exactly what you do not want.
remember unlike many modern finishes, nitro is not a high build plastic coating..and it should not look like it.
cheers
I will certainly try it with lots of thinner next time. The tin said 5% - 10%, so that's what I used in the past, but I'll see how it goes with more.
yeh the tin always says 5 to 10%..on pretty well all paints and varnishes.
Nitro is another strory all togehter......never tried spraying it that thick.
cheers
Hello All,
I find myself in a similar position to tegmark, and in search for the perfect finish. I have resorted to rubbing out a finish after spraying has cured to give the (what I think) perfect look and feel to projects. But have come unstuck with not "Fully chocking" the project first. Leaving powder in the open pores of timber, ie Jarrah.
To fully choke when spraying is to seal the piece with precat 2 or 3 coats and sand between coat down to timber again. Is this correct? From there you then spray and build up your top coats.
I have always thinned the precat down considerable and sprayed about 3 to 4 coats. and rub out to satin or semi gloss finish.
Regards
Gabriel
The big problem you will have with thin sprayed finishes is getting a full choke on porous timbers like jarrah.
Sprayed finishes will generally not flow into holes...there realy is no substitute for rubbing it in, either the finish product or some other grain filler.
Then you have the problem....if you have used a disolved finish like nitro as your grain filler......yeh you can.....if you are heavy handed with the following coats.....the underlying finish will redisolve and air bubbles can come out of the grain......coats later.
there are some devious means to solve these problems.
most finish manufacturers make sanding sealers compatable with thier top coats.....these products usually contain more solids ( to fill the holes) and sand more redily
Build your base and choke out with these rather than top coats.
one trick to stop the bubbles is..... warm the piece well, before you spray and spray light coats.
The coats will tend to go off faster..and if there is reliquifying, the cooling will tend to suck the bubbles down.
cheers
Soundman has basically answered your question so I hope I'm providing something useful not just repeating his comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrielinc
Basically, what you are doing is trying to use finish coat as a grain filler. Not a good idea.
use a grain filler as a grain filler
use a sealer as a sealer
then use the finish coat as the finish coat.
They are engineered to different jobs.
Applying repeated layers of pre-cat finish coat and sanding them back to get a smooth finish is possible but its doing things the hard way. Precats are not meant to be sanded - there is a small cross-linking effect as they cure which is designed to give a very hard, abrasion resistant finish. This resists scratching and scuffing when the article is in service - but sanding is abrasion as well so a side effect is that sanding is difficult as well. Much better is to fill the grain with something designed to fill grain, and to be sanded off easily. Timbermate is a good choice - make it up into slurry with water and a microwave oven.
Once you are happy with how the grain is filled, move on to the next step. Seal the timber. I know a lot of people don't use a sealer and its perfectly possible to get a good result that way, its just doing it the hard way. Whatever top-coat you are using will have a sealer as a companion product. Use the sealer because it will be:
cheaper then the topcoat
ridiculously easy to sand
quicker drying
generally more fault tolerant in application then the top coat.
Then sand the sealer back. And yep, you will be pretty much back to timber at this point. I like to think of the grain filler and the sealer as taking care of the timber below the surface and the top coats as taking care of the timber above the surface. Understand that there is not a lot of sanding involved - one or two passes with 400 grit is all it should need.
Then apply the top coats. The manufacturer of your product will have a recommendation of how many top coats are usually needed - its probably 2 or 3 - so if you find yourself differing from this number then you need to ask why - somehow you are not using the product as its intended to be. You should not be sanding the precat top coats unless you stuff up - it should come off the gun smooth to the point where frigging with the surface doesn't help.
A few days later you can buff it - but buffing should basically be optional, depending upon the surface you want.
I like to think of the point where you finish sanding back the sealer as the main quality gate in the finishing process. The surface should be dead silky smooth to the touch at this point. If there are any faults, you fix it now (below the surface) before going on to the topcoat. In effect, you are applying the top coats to a perfect surface, not expecting the top coats to do any filling, smoothing out or building up, because they are not the best product to do any of these.
cheers
Arron
Thanks Aaron, soundman.
I will be getting some sealer in the next few days. I have never sealed my precat sprayed projects as was advised by rep the precat didn't require it.
I do use timber mate and water it down and smooth out over projects using a spatula. I have always found the sanding back annoying as I would go through the sand paper like toilet paper and the timber would start burnishing more than effectively sanding.
I can also get a good finish of the gun and will do 3 coats for this. The extra coat to be able to rub out the finish so I am lead to believe! I like to get the smooth feel afterwards and this is when I run into the problems of clogging up the pores with fine dust (revert back to solution A - filling) by rubbing out the finish.
I think I should be just buffing and not the whole rubbing out process. Is this correct?
Regards
Gabriel
He's right - its not 'required' - but my point is it makes the process quicker, easier and cheaper. This applies especially when you are sanding. A good sealer will sand like a dream and wont clog up sandpaper. Precat is a pig to sand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrielinc
Generally, have a look at the documentation that accompanies your product. If the manufacturer recommends a sealer, then they do so because they want you to get the best result out of their product and come back to buy more, so you can be reasonably confident that you should be using it.
Perhaps try rubbing the excess timbermate off when its a little bit dry with hessian. Also, maybe start with coarser sandpaper. Also, are you clear coating - if not then there are many quick, easy-sanding fillers you could be using rather then Timbermate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrielinc
Try both and see. The whole rubbing out process is time consuming and profit destroying so if you can avoid it and just do a quick machine-buff then all the better. When I did my previous answer I overlooked the fact that you are after a matt or satin finish. For most things I want a gloss finish so I just do a quick rub over with 1200 grit to knock off any dust nibs etc, then machine buff with Meguiars Fine-cut Cleaner, which despite the name is just a very fine automotive cut and polish with no nasty silicon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrielinc
Regards
Arron
I like that Aaron - quicker, easier and cheaper.
I will give the wipe off a go on next project. I have a few project approaching finishing stage. Yes I am clear coating, mostly 50% gloss.
I am trying to fine tune all of the finishing process as this is where I get stuck, time wise. The two issues being the filling and then the buffing/ rubbing out. These are linked together I see along with "choking out".
As you put it, time consuming and profit destroying!! These two areas had been giving me the most amount of grief. Thinking, how in the hell do commercial guys do this and still make money??
Regards
Gabriel
I have heard of people using special dark rubbing compounds to overcome the problem of product getting lodged in open pores and showing up white once it dries. I'm not sure whether its a commercially available product or not though.
Generally, though I dont really like 'piano finishes' (i prefer the grain of the timber to telegraph itself through the finish to some degree) I would not like to see gaping, open pores in lacquered work. Or maybe its an effect I just havent seen done properly yet.
Arron
there realy are a number of differeing views and methods of using nitro...a hell of a lit of nitro is sprayed quick and dirty....those who use this method are not looking for a fully choked out piano finish.
they basicky sand to somewhere arround 240 and slash the piece with a couple of quick thin coats of nitro....no grain fillers or sanding sealers required...this is typical of pine furniture..
This is not a fine finish.
Personally Im not all that keen on timbermate, I find it does not stay put when sanded with a random orbit sander and it most certainly dulls the light in timber...and it provides no structrual improvement to the timber surface,
sanding sealer on the other hand will usually contain translucent solids that still allow the light of porous timbers to show..and it consolidates the timber surface ( glues the surface together)well.
a good sanding sealer corretly applied will provide a more durable harder surface.
I remember on illustration that showed the process of building a good flat fully choked out surface to put a final finish coat on.
it showed pictures of hills and valleys.....it showed the valleys being filled more and more with subsiquent coats and the tops of the hills being mowed down..till all the vallyes where filled and the hills where flush with the flat finish and an unbroken film of finish covererd the whole surface.....then and only then is the time to apply top coats
Nitro, when prepared correctly with a fully choked and fully flat surface will result in a pretty damn smooth finish straight off the gun (mmm sooo grossy)..with no sanding swirls and no light broken by micro scratches from buffing....AND the light in the timber will show
but this takes time and skill..something that is short supply these days.
cheers
Agreed. I only mentioned timbermate because I figured it was the best of a bad bunch. I've also been struggling with the fact that when I hit it with an ROS it either sands to below the surface or jumps out altogether. I get there in the end with it but its a lot more work then it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman
So what do you use when clear finishing for filling gaps which are small but a bit too big to be filled by sanding sealer. Any recommendations?
Arron
Yes, interested also in recommendations also. Do oil based fillers work better? Which brands if any?
Should you stick with the sanding sealer from the finish supplier, in my case Becker Acroma. I keep reading that shellac is universal as long as it is dewaxed shellac.
If I can eliminate the whole rubbing out process I'd be pretty happy!!
Regards
Gabriel.
Sorry, don't know that product so cant really comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabrielinc
OK, answering my own question then, and just speculating. If what we are looking for is a product that sands flat just by looking at it sideways, doesn't shrink, very fast drying, doesn't jump out when power sanded and most of all is super quick to use then why wouldn't we use this http://www.selleys.com.au/fillers/ri...akafilla-rapid . I've just used it for a job that was timber with a white enamel topcoat and it ticked all the boxes. I'd always thought the product was for filling plasterboard but it said on the packet that it was good for filling wood - and indeed it was. Of course we would have to tint it if doing clear coating - maybe same colour as the timber or a bit darker to add a bit of grain contrast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arron
Its not very robust stuff, but if its just filling the grain of timber then that's not really a problem.
And I don't know if it reacts to lacquer - but worth a try.
cheers
Arron
Aaron, for that application also give pollyfilla for trims and doors a go. Sets rock hard but can be sanded. I have seen my painters use it to skim over anything. Doors to peeled off paint on concrete tilt ups.
I have picked up some sealer today and when I mentioned I wanted a choke out finish on my clear furniture, they didn't hesitate in agreeing that sealer was the way to go even with Precat. I also have some poly spraying to do as well so the sealer can be used with both. The polishing hand book mentions shellac as a sealer is good also.
Regards
Gabriel
I should clarify - just to make sure expectations are realistic - that a sealer is only good for filling the grain on less open-pored timbers. E.g. good for jarrah, blackwood and cedar, not so for NG rosewood, silky oak or sheoke. You need a grain filler for the latter.
Arron